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I wanted to get your opinion on this. I want an unbiased opinion and unfortunately I don't think many other posters will give me one except you. So I am posting this here from the “who is YHWH thread”.
I don't expect you to believe the following I just want you to pretend you are trying to unravel a “story” an ancient mythology and see what you think.
My Post:
I really want to know how I can possibly believe Jehovah is the Most High. I want to know how the rest of you can stay sane while wrapping your morality into a pretzel.
Sincerely, does anyone have any good informative responses to help answer this?
All Nick will say is I am deceived and a blasphemer. Anything constructive out there?
Who is YHWH? Is he God Most High?
Lets ask someone who has seen God then to tell us.
1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us, and his love is brought to full expression in us.
Exodus 33:11
11 The LORD (Jehovah) would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.
What the heck who is this Jehovah then?
Acts 7:38
38He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
Oh he was an angel. What kind of angel?
Colossians 2:16-21
16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
20If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”An angel that put us into bondage? Wow Yikes!
Christ set us free from this bondage.
Colossians 2:14-15
14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Then who does Christ say this Jehovah is?
John 8:44
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Go back and Read Genesis 3 with and open mind and discover for yourself the truth of what is written there. Try not to let the lies of the pulpit blind you from what the text actually says.
It says that Adam and Eve were not created immortal and were prevented from becoming so by the Jehovah gods.
It says that the serpent told the truth and that their eyes did open and they did become like gods knowing good and evil.
It says that the Jehovah gods told the first lie and sentenced man to death.
Jehovah is not God Most High he is a rebellious principality and power.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High(El Elyon) gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s (Jehovah's) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.Jehovah was the tribal deity over Israel. One of the Watchers set over each of the nations. His portion was Israel. Jehovah is not El Elyon. He is under El Elyon.
Open your eyes. Be wise as the serpent! The truth will set you free from bondage to evil principalities and powers.
The Catholic Church lied and forged scriptures to hide that they made Jesus the son of Jehovah. Worse yet they made him a mulitple personality of Jehovah as if he wasn't insane enough already that had to give him a disorder.
Song of Songs 8:6
Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm:
for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave:
the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.
Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it
Jealousy is as cruel as the grave?
Exodus 34:13
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, WHOSE NAME IS JEALOUS, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a WHORING after their gods.
Is God really Jealous?
1 John 4:8
8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
God is Love? What is Love?
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
God is Love and Love is not Jealous?
This god who's name is Jealous is therefore not God!
Isaiah 45:7
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
James 1:13
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Isaiah 45:3
3And I will give thee the treasures of darknessJames 1:17
17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Ug, treasures of darkness? No thanks. Are we really talking about the same God here?
Seriously
Hi Son of Light
Quote I wanted to get your opinion on this. I want an unbiased opinion and unfortunately I don't think many other posters will give me one except you. So I am posting this here from the “who is YHWH thread”. I don't expect you to believe the following I just want you to pretend you are trying to unravel a “story” an ancient mythology and see what you think.
I really feel underqualified to give a comprehensive answer. But here is an attempt to rationalise it.Quote My Post: I really want to know how I can possibly believe Jehovah is the Most High. I want to know how the rest of you can stay sane while wrapping your morality into a pretzel. Sincerely, does anyone have any good informative responses to help answer this? All Nick will say is I am deceived and a blasphemer. Anything constructive out there? Who is YHWH? Is he God Most High? Lets ask someone who has seen God then to tell us.
1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us, and his love is brought to full expression in us.
Exodus 33:11 The LORD (Jehovah) would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.What the heck who is this Jehovah then?
Acts 7:38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
Oh he was an angel. What kind of angel?
Colossians 2:16-21 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
20If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”An angel that put us into bondage? Wow Yikes! Christ set us free from this bondage.
Colossians 2:14-15 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Then who does Christ say this Jehovah is?
John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Go back and Read Genesis 3 with and open mind and discover for yourself the truth of what is written there. Try not to let the lies of the pulpit blind you from what the text actually says.
It says that Adam and Eve were not created immortal and were prevented from becoming so by the Jehovah gods. It says that the serpent told the truth and that their eyes did open and they did become like gods knowing good and evil. It says that the Jehovah gods told the first lie and sentenced man to death. Jehovah is not God Most High he is a rebellious principality and power.
My dictionary says that Jehovah is a name for the Hebrew god. That is god singular, as in a monotheistic Judeo-christian belief. Not multiple or hierarchical gods. The word Jehovah as written in English was not used until the 17th Century, and it follows different attempts to add vowels to the vowel-free Hebrew equivalent of YHWH, the tetragrammaton used for the name of the Hebrew god. Because of the superstition against (actually the capital offense of) pronouncing god’s name (see Towshab’s use of G-d as a modern version of that superstition) we don’t know what vowel sounds were used by those who originally wrote YHWH.
Hence Yahweh and other variations as described in these linked pages:
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/jehovah.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah#Use_of_.22Jehovah.22_in_English
So now the issue you are confronting here is in fact not the problem of what the word Jehovah refers to. As we are starting to see, the problem is that the character of the OT god is very different from that of the NT god.Quote Deuteronomy 32:8-9 8When the Most High(El Elyon) gave to the nations their inheritance,when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. 9But the LORD’s (Jehovah's) portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.Jehovah was the tribal deity over Israel. One of the Watchers set over each of the nations. His portion was Israel. Jehovah is not El Elyon. He is under El Elyon.
A much debated verse. The insertion of (Jehovah's) is not helpful, as many interpret Most High to be the same as 'the LORD', meaning god does the dividing up then keeps a bit for himself. It's weird stuff still, but does sound quite consistently Zionist read this way.Quote Open your eyes. Be wise as the serpent! The truth will set you free from bondage to evil principalities and powers. The Catholic Church lied and forged scriptures to hide that they made Jesus the son of Jehovah. Worse yet they made him a mulitple personality of Jehovah as if he wasn't insane enough already that had to give him a disorder.
Song of Songs 8:6
Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame. Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it
Jealousy is as cruel as the grave?
Exodus 34:13 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, WHOSE NAME IS JEALOUS, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a WHORING after their gods.
Is God really Jealous?
1 John 4:8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. God is Love? What is Love?
.
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.God is Love and Love is not Jealous?
This god who's name is Jealous is therefore not God!
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
James 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:Isaiah 45:3And I will give thee the
treasures of darknessJames 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Ug, treasures of darkness? No thanks. Are we really talking about the same God here?
Seriously
Yes we are and no we are not talking about the same god here. This alternation of the old and new makes the point well.
In the OT god kills or orders the killing of somewhere between 2,000,000 and 32,0000,000 people. In the NT it is barely a few. You can draw your own conclusions about what the apologists say about how Jesus’ appearance on earth and judicial killing affected that, but the fact remains that there is a massive change of approach from OT to NT, from jealous and violent to kind and compassionate, as indicated above.
Here are three apologies from the first page of my Google search:
http://www.comereason.org/bibl_cntr/con090.asp
http://mb-soft.com/public/godotnt.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-different.htmlAccording to one of these, the OT god was all about ‘speaking to nations’ and smiting for justice, and the NT god was on about individual compassion and love. Well if that is true then there must have been a change in human nature that coincided with the life of Jesus. The problem here is that no more than a third of the population of the world has ever believed in the Judeo-christian version of events so that leaves two-thirds pretty much unaffected by Jesus.
What conclusions can be drawn from the fact that a deity needs to have humans reinterpret the message and character of god? Does he need a better PR team? Is he just an ambiguous inspirer of scripture?
Is that the kind of answer that you were expecting?
Stuart
Its a fine answer.
Now do a google search on the documentary hypothesis, the ugaritic tablets, jewish henotheism and the el elyon and yhwh relationship and how the Jews tried to merge the two.
as for the insertion of Jehovah that is what the text says. They take out YHVH and place Lord there.
32:8 When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
32:9 For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.It does not say Jehovah in this version, and it is still ambiguous.
Stuart
The Documentary hypothesis is pretty unabiguous. Elohim=Yahweh=YHWH Elohainu(=Jehovah in C17th English.) If you take the first commandment seriously then in the Ugarit, by assimilation, El=El Shaddai=El Elyon=El Berith=Yahweh=Jehovah etc. All names for one god (the atheist in me begins to lose the will to live here!). The seven names held equivalent are El=Elohim=Adonai=Ehyeh asher ehyeh=YHWH=Shaddai=Zebaot.(=Jehovah).
So you must conclude that YHWH, rendered Jehovah in English, has always been from a Judeo-christian point of view a name for THE god, and never was one for any other coexisting gods in the jewish henotheistic system. While a Canaanite could hold a grudge about this I can’t see what problem it holds for a christian. You just have to make the right names match in Deuteronomy and perhaps a few other places…
As you say, for me personally you can do what you like with gods. Assimilation is like equating Harry Potter to Gandalf, it makes no difference to reality.
Stuart
Thanks for your response. I don't think you are familiar enough with the scholarly work that has gone into this subject.
Instead I would like to ask if you knew nothing about the bible and religion and saw these verses describing gods would you think these gods were the same being?
Hey SOL and Stu,
If you think Jesus and his daddy are all about peace and love, check out Revelation. They both take off the disguise in that book. And while YHVH seemed to be a bloodthirsty G-d (which I attribute to bloodthirsty humans, not a benevolent Creator), He never said He would torment people forever while He watched. Jesus will watch as others are tortured for an eternity (Rev 14:9-11).
Killing people is one thing, torturing them and making it into a spectator sport is another. Sick and demented if you ask me.
I like the simple and straightforward way the CEV translates this verse:
Rev 14:11 If you worship the beast and the idol and accept the mark of its name, you will be tortured day and night. The smoke from your torture will go up forever and ever, and you will never be able to rest.
Oh, should have include the prior verse to show Jesus getting his kicks watching people suffer.
Rev 14:10 You will have to drink the wine that God gives to everyone who makes him angry. You will feel his mighty anger, and you will be tortured with fire and burning sulfur, while the holy angels and the Lamb look on.
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 08 2008,23:05) Hey SOL and Stu, If you think Jesus and his daddy are all about peace and love, check out Revelation. They both take off the disguise in that book. And while YHVH seemed to be a bloodthirsty G-d (which I attribute to bloodthirsty humans, not a benevolent Creator), He never said He would torment people forever while He watched. Jesus will watch as others are tortured for an eternity (Rev 14:9-11).
Killing people is one thing, torturing them and making it into a spectator sport is another. Sick and demented if you ask me.
I agree.I don't think John wrote revelation.
Some of the early Church Fathers thought a man named Cerinthus wrote it.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 08 2008,13:14) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 08 2008,23:05) Hey SOL and Stu, If you think Jesus and his daddy are all about peace and love, check out Revelation. They both take off the disguise in that book. And while YHVH seemed to be a bloodthirsty G-d (which I attribute to bloodthirsty humans, not a benevolent Creator), He never said He would torment people forever while He watched. Jesus will watch as others are tortured for an eternity (Rev 14:9-11).
Killing people is one thing, torturing them and making it into a spectator sport is another. Sick and demented if you ask me.
I agree.I don't think John wrote revelation.
Some of the early Church Fathers thought a man named Cerinthus wrote it.
You do know that Cerinthus was a gnostic, much like yourself, don't you?Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 09 2008,06:31) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 08 2008,13:14) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 08 2008,23:05) Hey SOL and Stu, If you think Jesus and his daddy are all about peace and love, check out Revelation. They both take off the disguise in that book. And while YHVH seemed to be a bloodthirsty G-d (which I attribute to bloodthirsty humans, not a benevolent Creator), He never said He would torment people forever while He watched. Jesus will watch as others are tortured for an eternity (Rev 14:9-11).
Killing people is one thing, torturing them and making it into a spectator sport is another. Sick and demented if you ask me.
I agree.I don't think John wrote revelation.
Some of the early Church Fathers thought a man named Cerinthus wrote it.
You do know that Cerinthus was a gnostic, much like yourself, don't you?
yes I knew that.gnostic is an extremely broad title.
A gnostic doesn't even have to be a Christian.
As many types of gnostics as their are christians or jews or any other religion.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2008,12:23) Hi Tow,
The message has never been popular
with those who have read it
and cannot believe.
So you would like to be there along side of Jesus as he watches people being tormented forever and ever Nick? Do you look forward to stuff like that? It would explain much.Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 08 2008,20:26) Thanks for your response. I don't think you are familiar enough with the scholarly work that has gone into this subject. Instead I would like to ask if you knew nothing about the bible and religion and saw these verses describing gods would you think these gods were the same being?
I think you are right – I did warn you I am not qualified to pontificate on this. Perhaps I am just not motivated to find out about how many angels the ancients could count dancing on the head of a pin, and the idea of assimilating gods into one or trying to decipher the choirs of angels and the different kinds that are imagined is not really my thing. I remain interested in why people do such things, but not the details of the obsessive activities they engage in.Perhaps if you are familiar with the scholarly work you could enlighten us.
Stuart
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 09 2008,06:42) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2008,12:23) Hi Tow,
The message has never been popular
with those who have read it
and cannot believe.
So you would like to be there along side of Jesus as he watches people being tormented forever and ever Nick? Do you look forward to stuff like that? It would explain much.
Hi tow,
I am sure the Lord will have more useful things for his brothers to do.Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 08 2008,23:05) Hey SOL and Stu, If you think Jesus and his daddy are all about peace and love, check out Revelation. They both take off the disguise in that book. And while YHVH seemed to be a bloodthirsty G-d (which I attribute to bloodthirsty humans, not a benevolent Creator), He never said He would torment people forever while He watched. Jesus will watch as others are tortured for an eternity (Rev 14:9-11).
Killing people is one thing, torturing them and making it into a spectator sport is another. Sick and demented if you ask me.
We can't know for sure whether either exists, and thanks to the meddling by early christians we can't know for sure what Jesus said, if he said anything at all. There is no basis there for proclaiming a champion of peace, love and harmony in either case. If you believe the authenticity of scripture then god is an inspiration to both the peacenik and the psychopathic serial killer. Revelation is the ultimate fundamentalist fantasy and you would think they would be less enthusiastic about a text that reads like it was written by someone tripping on an hallucinogen.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 08 2008,17:56) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 08 2008,23:05) Hey SOL and Stu, If you think Jesus and his daddy are all about peace and love, check out Revelation. They both take off the disguise in that book. And while YHVH seemed to be a bloodthirsty G-d (which I attribute to bloodthirsty humans, not a benevolent Creator), He never said He would torment people forever while He watched. Jesus will watch as others are tortured for an eternity (Rev 14:9-11).
Killing people is one thing, torturing them and making it into a spectator sport is another. Sick and demented if you ask me.
We can't know for sure whether either exists, and thanks to the meddling by early christians we can't know for sure what Jesus said, if he said anything at all. There is no basis there for proclaiming a champion of peace, love and harmony in either case. If you believe the authenticity of scripture then god is an inspiration to both the peacenik and the psychopathic serial killer. Revelation is the ultimate fundamentalist fantasy and you would think they would be less enthusiastic about a text that reads like it was written by someone tripping on an hallucinogen.Stuart
Aw, give John a break Stu. He was old when he wrote Revelation even by today's standards. So picture a dude about 80+ years old in the first century off on some Isle of Patmos. You can only imagine the results.Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 09 2008,11:52) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 08 2008,17:56) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 08 2008,23:05) Hey SOL and Stu, If you think Jesus and his daddy are all about peace and love, check out Revelation. They both take off the disguise in that book. And while YHVH seemed to be a bloodthirsty G-d (which I attribute to bloodthirsty humans, not a benevolent Creator), He never said He would torment people forever while He watched. Jesus will watch as others are tortured for an eternity (Rev 14:9-11).
Killing people is one thing, torturing them and making it into a spectator sport is another. Sick and demented if you ask me.
We can't know for sure whether either exists, and thanks to the meddling by early christians we can't know for sure what Jesus said, if he said anything at all. There is no basis there for proclaiming a champion of peace, love and harmony in either case. If you believe the authenticity of scripture then god is an inspiration to both the peacenik and the psychopathic serial killer. Revelation is the ultimate fundamentalist fantasy and you would think they would be less enthusiastic about a text that reads like it was written by someone tripping on an hallucinogen.Stuart
Aw, give John a break Stu. He was old when he wrote Revelation even by today's standards. So picture a dude about 80+ years old in the first century off on some Isle of Patmos. You can only imagine the results.
Hmmm I've perhaps naively followed the hallucinogen idea to explain revelation but you are proposing the Doddery Old Man on a Greek Island hypothesis?Sounds interesting.
Stuart
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