Question #2 for Keith

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,10:18)

Okay Paul,

Peter and John prayed TO the ONE who created the heavens and the earth and EVERYTHING in them.

Do you see that they did not pray TO Jesus? So if Jesus is not the ONE that created the heavens and the earth and EVERYTHING in them, he has no choice but to be one of the “EVERYTHING in them” that was created BY the ONE they prayed TO. If he is one of the “EVERYTHING” that was created by his God, then he is a creature.

Do you see it now? There are only two options listed: The ONE who created all, and the “all” that ONE created. Since Jesus is listed in this prayer as the SERVANT of the ONE who created all, he is obviously NOT the ONE who created all. And if he is not that ONE, then he must be in the category of “Part of the EVERYTHING that was created by that ONE”.

Yes…and if Acts 4:24 represented the sum total of detail we are given about the creation event, this argment might hold some weight. But it is not. Unfortunately for Mike his flimsy argument is vaporised by passages like these:

“All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)

“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)

“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)

“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS” (Heb 1:10)

So the Father is not the Creator to the exclusion of Yeshua, just as Yeshua is not the Creator to the exclusion of the Father. Both are credited for this in scripture.

You must take the whole counsel of God's word into account when forming your doctrinal axioms. Don't fall into the prooftexting trap Mike has here of just taking one verse and using that as the lens by which you view scripture.

May 21, 2011 at 4:26 am#246418

Participant

Quote (david @ May 21 2011,09:53)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 20 2011,18:44)

Quote (david @ May 20 2011,08:09)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,12:15)

Have you thought this through? If creation came “through” Him then, at the very least, He was involved in the creative act. Jesus logically cannot be a creature then, right? You cannot be involved in the creation of yourself!….

–God created his Son.
–Through his Son He created the angels, who would later shout in applause at physical creation.
–Then, in the beginning (of physical creation,) through his Son, He created the heavens and the earth, everything physical.

There is nothing here that contradicts itself.

Seriously in what way did God create through his Son?
what does THROUGH mean? how did God accomplish creating THROUGH his son.

Was the Son a hammer and God ironed out creation with him?

can someone explain this process for me?

Its seem so contradicting to say everything was made through the Son, yet the guy is not a creator at all. ???
wierddddd

The Intellect of the Potter created the pot, yet the hands that molded it togethor had nothing to do with it… hmmm

EXAMPLE:

Solomon had the temple built. He did not physically build it himself but he built it through laborors, and workmen.

Over and over again we are told Solomon built the temple. It was Solomon's temple. He took credit for it.

But he didn't do the actual building. He did however supply everything needed.

And so we say “Solomon built the temple” even though he had it built “through” a workforce.

Consider that perhaps Solomon had one person he put in charge of organizing and doing the work, a master worksman. You know, the worksmen, they don't even see Solomon. Really, it's this master worksman that is carrying out Solomon's plans. Solomon would still be given the most credit and be called the creator of the temple. And, 50 years later, eveyone would know that Solomon had the temple build and no one would even know the name of the guy that was put in charge of carrying it out. So it goes. Solomon built the temple. (But obviously did it “through” a great workforce.)

Ah David, the problem with this analogy is the fact that the builders did actually build the temple. So this doesn't go any way towards resolving the conundrum you're confronted with, namely – how could Yeshua be a temporal being when He was involved in the creation of time?

May 21, 2011 at 4:39 am#246420

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,10:22)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,21:57)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:50)

Now, shall we compare notes as to which one should be literal? Have you forgotten already that God Almighty would NEVER be said to be born, begotten, brought forth, be a son, or have a beginning? God Almighty is a servant of no one, and calls no one “my God”.

Think it out, man. Could you even imagine calling the Father “the firstborn of all creation”? Even with your faulty interpretation of Rev 3:14, it still says that JESUS, (one person) is the ruler of GOD'S (a different person) creation. Why? Why wouldn't Jesus have said, “the ruler of creation” and leave it at that? Why “the ruler of the creation BY GOD”?

So I ask you: Have YOU really thought this out?

Yeah I have thought it out, and those tired old quasi prooftexts have been dealt with by me and others multiple times.

Please indulge me. Do you think the Father is the firstborn of all creation? If not, why? You say it means “preeminent”, and wouldn't the Father, as the God of Jesus, be preeminent over His own creation?

HA! What are you implying here Mike? That the Father is not preeminent over His creation?!? I would say most assuredly the He is. It astonishes me the places faulty doctrine will take you! Yes, Yeshua is the sovereign ruler over His creation, which is exacly what you would expect of a Creator.

May 21, 2011 at 4:56 am#246422

Participant

Quote (t8 @ May 20 2011,20:13)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2011,16:47)

t8 (and Paul you might be interested in this too),
Good post, the early church fathers and many Christian commentaries consider Prov 8 to be speaking about the Son of God also. It is probably speaking about wisdom as found in the Son and not wisdom as the Son.

John Wesley wrote this:
8:1Wisdom – It is a great question what this wisdom is. Some understand it of the Divine wisdom; others of the second person in the Godhead: and it cannot be denied that some passages best agree to the former, and others to the latter opinion. Possibly both may be joined together, and the chapter may be understood of Christ considered partly in his personal capacity, and partly in regard of his office, which was to impart the mind and will of God to mankind.
found here:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/comment….-8.html

and John Gill's wrote:
it denotes the Lord's having, possessing, and enjoying his word and wisdom as his own proper Son; which possession of him is expressed by his being with him and in him, and in his bosom, and as one brought forth and brought up by him; as he was “in the beginning of his way” of creation, when he went forth in his wisdom and power, and created all things; then he did possess his Son, and made use of him, for by him he made the worlds: and “in the beginning of his way” of grace, which was before his way of creation;
found here:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/comment….22.html

And then there is Matthew Henry:
The redeemer is the eternal Word and wisdom, the Logos. He is the Wisdom that speaks to the children of men in the former part of the chapter. All divine revelation passes through his hand, and centres in him; but of him as the personal Wisdom, the second person in the Godhead, in the judgment of many of the ancients, Solomon here speaks (v. 22–31).
found here: http://www.biblestudytools.com/comment….l

Kathi

You can say that truth, life, wisdom, and logos are all found in the son, and even some of us, but Jesus actually said that he was THE way, THE truth, THE life. He used the article to identify that he was THESE. We cannot say that can we? Even if we possess these qualities.

Hi t8,

There are no articles in the Greek in this verse however they are added to the translation.

1 Cor 1;24
but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

I think people make more out of the article than they should. For instance, sometimes it is there to show which noun is the subject of the sentence.

Kathi

May 21, 2011 at 5:00 am#246423

Participant

Mike,

Quote

Jesus was also brought forth by his Father, indicating a time when he didn't exist.

And that is not proven anywhere in scripture. The Spirit was also brought forth yet eternal.

Anyway, we should probably just keep our discussion in our discussion thread, ok? I was asking Irene for her response in case you didn't notice I would like to get her response, thanks.

Kathi

May 21, 2011 at 5:48 am#246424

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 21 2011,11:36)

Quote (david @ May 21 2011,03:53)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 20 2011,18:44)

Quote (david @ May 20 2011,08:09)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,12:15)

There is nothing here that contradicts itself.

Seriously in what way did God create through his Son?
what does THROUGH mean? how did God accomplish creating THROUGH his son.

Was the Son a hammer and God ironed out creation with him?

can someone explain this process for me?

Its seem so contradicting to say everything was made through the Son, yet the guy is not a creator at all. ???
wierddddd

The Intellect of the Potter created the pot, yet the hands that molded it togethor had nothing to do with it… hmmm

EXAMPLE:

Solomon had the temple built. He did not physically build it himself but he built it through laborors, and workmen.

Over and over again we are told Solomon built the temple. It was Solomon's temple. He took credit for it.

But he didn't do the actual building. He did however supply everything needed.

And so we say “Solomon built the temple” even though he had it built “through” a workforce.

david,
did solomon create the workers? so your example cant be compared to God.
now if u can make an example where a physical body and an intellect from the same entity dont create together thannnn u would probably make sense.

but as i said the potters intellect and hands both create.

Simply, this was your question:

Quote

Seriously in what way did God create through his Son?
what does THROUGH mean? how did God accomplish creating THROUGH his son.

I think I answered your questions.

But if it helps you, imagine that Solomon had a son, which of course he did. Let's say that Solomon created this Son in the normal human way. And then, Solomon decided to create a temple, and so he planned and planned, and got all the materials and would provide the funds to carry it out. But he had his now grown up son actually carry it out. He put his son in charge of his temple construction.

And, despite the son doing the work, yet again, it is his Father who has the credit of building the temple.

(I'm not basing this on what really happened of course. It's just an illustration. “Solomon built the temple.” But we understand what that really means, don't we?)

May 21, 2011 at 5:51 am#246425

Participant

Quote

–paul

My example was in answer to these words:

Quote

Seriously in what way did God create through his Son?
what does THROUGH mean? how did God accomplish creating THROUGH his son.

I was merely showing how one can be called the creator of something but have someone else do the actual work.

I have a question for you Paul. When were the angels created?

May 21, 2011 at 5:58 am#246426

Participant

Quote

“All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)

“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)

“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)

Does anyone here find it a little odd that the word “through” is for some reason in these verses?

One would normally say “by” him, as the first half of Col 1:16 does. But in all these instances, it is made plain that it was “through” him. “Through” him!!!!

Is it an accident that it says “through” in all these verses, that the “things” were created? What do others think this means?

May 21, 2011 at 5:59 am#246427

Pastry

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2011,03:54)

Irene,
Did you exist within the womb before you were actually born from the womb? Wasn't your heart beating long before your mother brought you forth through birth? Maybe the Son existed within His Father before He was actually born also and maybe He 'always' existed within His Father until He was born since the Father has always been self-sufficient, He may have always had the Son within Him to create and save through, and then when He needed Him to create through, He brought Him forth. Think about that Irene.

Blessings,
Kathi

Kathy! Long before??? You call 9 months long???
Look we have plenty Scriptures that tell us Jesus existed as a Spirit Being. He was in the form of God Phil. 2,
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

verse 7 tells us that He was made in the likeness of men…
Just like John 1:14 tells us that He became flesh. He was not just in Gods mind…..You can't find that in any Scriptures….

But now don't think that when it says He was equal with God, because then the Scriptures in Deut, John, Ephesians would all contradict…. and the Bible does not contradict…. Georg's words…And I believe it too.. i was just reading what you said. Let me ask you a question? When you got married, did you plan to have Children??? We did. Did God plan it??? I really don't know of a Scripture that say's that, do you? besides, is that important to you? It's good enough for me to know that Jesus came to earth, to die for all of us….. That is what is more important to me then to know if Jesus was in the mind of God…. Peace Irene

May 21, 2011 at 6:06 am#246428

shimmer

Participant

Quote (david @ May 21 2011,17:58)

Quote

“All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)

“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)

Does anyone here find it a little odd that the word “through” is for some reason in these verses?

One would normally say “by” him, as the first half of Col 1:16 does. But in all these instances, it is made plain that it was “through” him. “Through” him!!!!

Is it an accident that it says “through” in all these verses, that the “things” were created? What do others think this means?

Hi David. How are you?

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

May 21, 2011 at 6:11 am#246429

Participant

And the house that King Sol′o‧mon built to Jehovah was sixty cubits in its length….

….he built against the wall of the house a side structure all around…

…Further, he continued building the house that he might finish it, …

the word of Jehovah came to Sol′o‧mon, saying: “As regards this house that you are building, …

May 21, 2011 at 6:15 am#246430

Participant

Hi Shimmer. I'm fine. And you?

It seems you are trying. Perhaps if you could connect the scripture you gave to my post.

May 21, 2011 at 6:16 am#246431

http://kingdomready.org/blog….iptures

Participant

Sorry,
the post above about solomon. It should have ended asking:

Does anyone think that Solomon physically built the house himself? Or, do you think he did it through others? Yet, who is credited with building the house? Who is the builder?

May 21, 2011 at 6:20 am#246432

shimmer

Participant

David, I know what your saying.

You might find this interesting.

Heres a bit of it,

“The Jewish Scriptures are clear on this point: God is the sole Savior of Israel. The LORD says, “I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior” (Is. 43:3); “apart from Me there is no savior” (Is. 43:11; cf. 45:15, 21; 49:26; 60:16; 63:8). Nevertheless, Moses, as God’s agent, is called a savior (Acts 7:35; cp. 27 and Ex. 2:14; 18:13). The judges, as God’s appointed agents, are also called saviors (Jud. 3:9, 15; Neh. 9:27; Ex. 2:14; 18:13, Acts 7:27, 35). The prophets speak of other human agents, yet future, who will save Israel (Is. 19:20, Obad. 21).”

May 21, 2011 at 6:21 am#246433

Participant

Irene,
Whether 9 months is a long period of time or not, if it were only 1 month, that would demonstrate that you existed before you were born, that was the point.

I know He was a spirit being, He also was the exact representation of the nature of God. No other spirit being can say that except God, the Father.

Phillipians 2:6-7 shows us the Son's willingness to confine Himself to the body of flesh and then sacrifice that body of flesh, but He couldn't sacrifice what pre-existed that body…that part did not die.

I am not disagreeing that He came in flesh and I don't know why you are even discussing that with me. I know He wasn't just in God's mind. Follow along Irene…I am the one that suggests that He always was a being within the Father and then before creation, He was born from the Father. After conception, you were a being within your mother before you were born also. I don't think that the Son was conceived but always was an offspring within the Father and then He was begotten before creation. This 'begetting' was the beginning step for the Father to create, I don't believe that He was created, just brought forth from where He was within the Father.

I do believe that the Son was not equally the Father, but I believe they equally had divine eternal nature.

You seem to be confused when you seem to think that I am saying the Son existed as a plan. I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that He was alive before He was begotten…you were alive before you were born too. Get it?

Think it through, Irene…take your time. You missed what I was saying before. Try again, ok?

Blessings,
Kathi

May 21, 2011 at 8:23 am#246436

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ May 21 2011,17:06)

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Good point. The use of the word “through” here denotes an active role, with Yeshua being the actual executor of the salvic act. So it is with the Creation.

“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS” (Hebrews 1:10, NASB)

May 21, 2011 at 8:44 am#246437

Participant

Quote (david @ May 21 2011,16:51)

I have a question for you Paul. When were the angels created?

Scripture does not expressly declare it, but my assumption is at the commencement of the creation week. Since they are the “hosts of heaven” (Luke 2:13) they must have been brought into existence with or following the creation of heaven.

You alone are the LORD you have made the heavens, the heaven of heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them you give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You. (Neh 9:6)

Tell me what you think.

May 21, 2011 at 10:16 am#246445

Pastry

Participant

Kathy! Don't know what your point is. I don't know if Jesus was always in the Father, do you??? Do you have a scripture that says so???…You say Jesus was alive before He was begotten, Yes, as a Spirit Being…. That is the way I see it. Begotten means born, and He was born as a Human, that's my point….
But kathy what's the point….. Am I miossing something??? Peace Irene

May 21, 2011 at 12:25 pm#246449

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,03:44)

Quote (david @ May 21 2011,16:51)

I have a question for you Paul. When were the angels created?

Tell me what you think.

Hi Paul,
Good post. I have thought the same thing. The pattern for creation for the physical creation was to create the dwelling place before the creatures that dwell there, i.e. the seas before the fish, the dry land before the dry land animals and people, the heavens before the sun and moon. For those who wish to say that the Son was created before 'everything else' need to realize His dwelling place wasn't created before He was, but I don't agree that He was created anyway.

I believe that the foundation was being laid on day three when the seas took their place and the dry land was established. Prov 8 says that here:

29When He set for the sea its boundary
So that the water would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth;

30Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,

So, the angels had to be there between day two and day three. Day two God established the heavens, the angels dwelling place…day three God established the foundations of the earth.

That's my take on it.
Kathi

May 21, 2011 at 12:40 pm#246451