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Quote Yet again you prove your astounding ignorance. The “U.S. Catholic” is not official church position. After your forgetting about Augustine's Retractions, I wouldn't be too hasty in using that word “ignorance.”
Quote You all still haven't been able to support your hair-brain idea called “Sola Scriptura.” I'm not sure what you mean by Sola Scriptura, but if you look at history, at all, ever, it becomes obvious that the Christians of the first, and second centuries believed and acted a lot different from the “Christians” of the 3d and 4th.
The way I explain this, is by realizing that the many times the first earliest true Christians spoke about the false teaches, false prophets, the wolves coming, etc, ….they were right!
Quote Purgatory is NOT a “middle ground between heaven and hell”. It is referred to in Scripture at the judgment seat (bema) of Christ. (2 Cor. 5:8-10) Why not call it judgement seat?
Wait a second. You mentioned the U.S. Catholic quote, but what of this:
After reviewing what Catholic writers have said regarding such texts as 2 Maccabees 12:39-45, Matthew 12:32, and 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) acknowledges:
“In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”
Would you agree with this defintion:
“According to the teaching of the [Roman Catholic] Church, the state, place, or condition in the next world . . . where the souls of those who die in the state of grace, but not yet free from all imperfection, make expiation for unforgiven venial sins or for the temporal punishment due to venial and mortal sins that have already been forgiven and, by so doing, are purified before they enter heaven.” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034)
Ratzinger (when he was a Cardinal) stated:
“Limbo was never a defined truth of faith. Personally—and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as Prefect of the Congregation—I would abandon it since it was only a theological hypothesis. It formed part of a secondary thesis in support of a truth which is absolutely of first significance for faith, namely, the importance of baptism. To put it in the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God” (John 3:5). One should not hesitate to give up the idea of “limbo” if need be (and it is worth noting that the very theologians who proposed “limbo” also said that parents could spare the child limbo by desiring its baptism and through prayer); but the concern behind it must not be surrendered. Baptism has never been a side issue for faith; it is not now, nor will it ever be.”
–The Ratzinger Report: An Exclusive Interview on the State of the Church, with Vittorio Messori (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1985, p 147,148)“My view is that if Purgatory did not exist, we should have to invent it.”–Ratzinger, Same book as above.
Are these quotes by the Catholic Encyclopedia and by Ratzinger “official church position”?
What do you say?
Quote (david @ Sep. 01 2009,18:37) Quote Yet again you prove your astounding ignorance. The “U.S. Catholic” is not official church position. After your forgetting about Augustine's Retractions, I wouldn't be too hasty in using that word “ignorance.”
Quote You all still haven't been able to support your hair-brain idea called “Sola Scriptura.” I'm not sure what you mean by Sola Scriptura, but if you look at history, at all, ever, it becomes obvious that the Christians of the first, and second centuries believed and acted a lot different from the “Christians” of the 3d and 4th.
The way I explain this, is by realizing that the many times the first earliest true Christians spoke about the false teaches, false prophets, the wolves coming, etc, ….they were right!
Ha! Yeah right. Me, forgetting about Augustine's retractions. Don't be silly. Christ is the Rock. Peter is His vicar (prime minister). Peter received and held an office. Augustine, Chrysostom, all affirmed both positions. This was not a retraction, but a clarification of Augustine's.But what are you doing quoting a man whom you severely disagree with on a myriad of points. Augustine was hardly part of your little armageddon cult.
Catholics of the first to the present century have believed and acted in uniformity. But I guess you wouldn't know that since you only read the little pamphlets with Scripture clippings that your superiors chain together to construe what you all call “doctrine.”
Is that what happens when you get baptized into the “spirit of the organization”?
Quote (david @ Sep. 01 2009,18:40) Quote Purgatory is NOT a “middle ground between heaven and hell”. It is referred to in Scripture at the judgment seat (bema) of Christ. (2 Cor. 5:8-10) Why not call it judgement seat?
Because it is what happens to SOME at the judgement seat. Not all. Did you catch that part about Gold, Silver, and precious stones?Quote (david @ Sep. 01 2009,18:52) “My view is that if Purgatory did not exist, we should have to invent it.”–Ratzinger, Same book as above.
IF…did you follow his logic in that phrase?O yeah, you learn well from your superiors. Did they teach you to pull verses out of context? Or did they do this one for you too?
Hi CA,
Who appointed men to stand in for Jesus?
He is still the head of his church.So what of your human organisation and how is it different from say the masonic lodge which also claims to serve God?
Quote Catholics of the first to the present century have believed and acted in uniformity. I would like to explore this in intense detail. It is not true and it is not true on so very many counts.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 01 2009,19:56) Quote (david @ Sep. 01 2009,18:52) “My view is that if Purgatory did not exist, we should have to invent it.”–Ratzinger, Same book as above.
IF…did you follow his logic in that phrase?O yeah, you learn well from your superiors. Did they teach you to pull verses out of context? Or did they do this one for you too?
Click on the link. Read the rest of it. Although he believes in purgatory, the statement I quoted stands.Even if it didn't exist THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WOULD HAVE TO INVENT IT.
HMMMM.
I wonder what else they invented.
Quote (david @ Aug. 31 2009,10:26) New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) acknowledges: “In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”
“The church has relied on tradition to support a middle ground between heaven and hell.”
—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 7.“What goes on in purgatory is anyone’s guess.”—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 9.
We could always ask Dante.
A David did you know that the Priest will except money for their prayers and a Mass
for the death. I always thought that was odd, to say the least. I wonder if they still do so? But when we belonged that is what they did.
For all those poor Souls in Pergatory!!!!
IreneQuote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,02:39) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 01 2009,19:56) Quote (david @ Sep. 01 2009,18:52) “My view is that if Purgatory did not exist, we should have to invent it.”–Ratzinger, Same book as above.
IF…did you follow his logic in that phrase?O yeah, you learn well from your superiors. Did they teach you to pull verses out of context? Or did they do this one for you too?
Click on the link. Read the rest of it. Although he believes in purgatory, the statement I quoted stands.Even if it didn't exist THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WOULD HAVE TO INVENT IT.
HMMMM.
I wonder what else they invented.
I can't believe I have to spell this out for you. Are you that blind?First of all, Ratzinger did not have a charism of infallibility until he became pope. Even then, not everything he says now is infallible. Only what he says under very limited and clearly defined circumstances.
However, I think he is right in this statement. So I have no problem defending it.
He is saying that….based upon Scriptural truths (i.e. nothing impure can enter heaven) if we didn't even know about Purgatory we would have to invent it to explain the spiritual realities in the deposit of faith.
BUT….We didn't have to invent it. It is certainly part of the deposit of faith.
He DIDN'T say “we invented it.” If he did, his works would have been condemned by the Church.
So I don't know where you get off.
Hi CA,
So the election of a carnal man by carnal men to lead carnal men transformed him magically to be a substitute for Jesus?For Beloved,
An invention by catholicism[like limbo]to take over the holes in their ludicrous theology.Quote (Cindy @ Sep. 02 2009,03:00) Quote (david @ Aug. 31 2009,10:26) New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) acknowledges: “In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”
“The church has relied on tradition to support a middle ground between heaven and hell.”
—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 7.“What goes on in purgatory is anyone’s guess.”—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 9.
We could always ask Dante.
A David did you know that the Priest will except money for their prayers and a Mass
for the death. I always thought that was odd, to say the least. I wonder if they still do so? But when we belonged that is what they did.
For all those poor Souls in Pergatory!!!!
Irene
I heard about that. That's messed up! No where in the bible does it even say to pray for the dead. =\ I mean, that doesn't even make any sense. They're already dead. They had their chances to make things right. It's over for them and that's that.You should pray for the living and those around you. THEY are the ones that people should be focusing in because they still have days to live, decisions to make, experiences, and chances.
Quote (Beloved @ Nov. 18 2009,11:13) Quote (Cindy @ Sep. 02 2009,03:00) Quote (david @ Aug. 31 2009,10:26) New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) acknowledges: “In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”
“The church has relied on tradition to support a middle ground between heaven and hell.”
—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 7.“What goes on in purgatory is anyone’s guess.”—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 9.
We could always ask Dante.
A David did you know that the Priest will except money for their prayers and a Mass
for the death. I always thought that was odd, to say the least. I wonder if they still do so? But when we belonged that is what they did.
For all those poor Souls in Pergatory!!!!
Irene
I heard about that. That's messed up! No where in the bible does it even say to pray for the dead. =\ I mean, that doesn't even make any sense. They're already dead. They had their chances to make things right. It's over for them and that's that.You should pray for the living and those around you. THEY are the ones that people should be focusing in because they still have days to live, decisions to make, experiences, and chances.
I agree though I hope the dead chose right though in some cases I fear they did not. Never the less, God is just!
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