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Daniel 12:2 ,
Matthew 13:41-42 ,
Matthew 18:8-9,
Matthew 22:13 ,
Matthew 25:41, 46 ,
Mark 9:43-48,
Luke 16:22-24,
John 5:28-29 ,
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 ,
Revelation 14:10-11,
Revelation 20:10,
Revelation 20:14-15Uh, wait… No
Deuteronomy 29:20
Psalm 1:4-6 ,
Psalm 34:16 ,
Psalm 37:1-2 ,
Psalm 37:20 ,
Psalm 69:28 ,
Proverbs 10:25 ,
Proverbs 24:20 ,
Obadiah 16 ,
Romans 6:21 ,
Romans 6:23 1 ,
Corinthians 3:17 ,
2 Corinthians 2:15 ,
Galatians 6:8 ,
Philippians 3:18-19,
1 Thessalonians ,
5:3 James 1:15 ,
James 4:12 ,
James 5:20 ,
1 Corinthians 15:22 ,
1 Timothy 4:10 ,
1 John 2:2Stuart
The doctrine of purgatory stems from a belief in hades and the catholic churches teachings on purchasing indulgences. The catholic church evolved it's position on hades over the centuries creating a doctrine using Jesus teachings on a person not being able to get out of Jail until they had paid the last penny for their actions. They took this as meaning a soul being purged of iniquity as a trial by fire for purification. This is not what the early church or christians believed but was an evolved teaching. Later the reformation over reacted against this wrong teaching and did away with the doctrine of hades all together in revulsion of the catholics misguided doctrine.
The english translations of the bible does a horrible job of expressing what the bible actually says concerning hell. This in my opinion is the direct result of bias of translation from a modern protestant position. They translate 3 places as hell.
Hades (or Shoel in hebrew)
For those who don't believe the soul lives after death until the ressurection this is the grave. For those who do this is exactly as described in the parable between the Rich Man and Lazarus. Hades is divided into two sections and seperated by a great gulf between the two.
The bad side where the person is dreadful uncomfortable as they contemplate their impending judgement and the good side “paradise” where the saints await the ressurection. This paradise is called by some an intermediate heaven. This is where Jesus went after his death on the cross in order to preach to the spirits including the patriarchs.
Tarturus
This is an abyss for deeper than hades where the angels that left their first estate (genesis 6:4, 2 peter 2:4, jude vs. 6) and deviled themselves with human women. These angels are bound their in there own private “bad hades” awaiting judgement.
Gehenna
This is the lake of fire and NOBODY is currently in it. Nobody is thrown in here until after the judgement. This is a place originally prepared for the devil and his angels but humans who do not repent can be tossed here as well. For those who do not believe in eternal torment this is annihilation and for those who do believe in eternal torment this is what is meant by burning in “hell” forever.
So most of the time when a person mentions hell they actually mean lake of fire. However, hell is a translation of the greek word hades. That is why it is said Jesus descended into hell. The truth is that all good christians go to hell. Because paradise is a part of hell. But, because of our english translations and the complete lack of knowledge of the modern christian in these areas hearing that would make them look at you like you are nuts.
Gehenna is ot the lake of fire. It is merely the garbage dump outside of jeruselum.
Where the garbage was burned, and sometimes the bodies of the dead.Jesus used it because his desciples knew what it was.
Hades and the lake of fire can not both be hell because in the end hades is thrown
into the lake of fire.Perhaps the lake of fire is for purification, not torture.
God was always using fire to cleanse and purify.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 05 2007,22:29) Gehenna is ot the lake of fire. It is merely the garbage dump outside of jeruselum.
Where the garbage was burned, and sometimes the bodies of the dead.Jesus used it because his desciples knew what it was.
Hades and the lake of fire can not both be hell because in the end hades is thrown
into the lake of fire.Perhaps the lake of fire is for purification, not torture.
God was always using fire to cleanse and purify.Tim
You are right that Gehenna was the name of the dump. Jesus was calling the unamed lake of fire by the title Gehenna. He did this in order to use a familiar image for what awaited sinners after judgement.You are right hades and the lake of fire are not the same thing.
Hades is Hell.
The Lake of Fire is where everything wicked, including hades and death, will be tossed.
Hell has been incorrectly understood to be the lake of fire. Everyone goes to hell at death not just the wicked.
In Judaism when a person who dies in much transgression they just die. There is no afterlife there is no resurrection. End of story.
In Christianity, these same people are brought back to life so that the Christian god can say 'see told you so' and then toss them in a lake of fire.
Fear of the lake of fire is what keeps Christians in line. Love of G-d keeps Jews and G-d fearing Gentiles serving him.
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 05 2007,23:47) In Judaism when a person who dies in much transgression they just die. There is no afterlife there is no resurrection. End of story. In Christianity, these same people are brought back to life so that the Christian god can say 'see told you so' and then toss them in a lake of fire.
Fear of the lake of fire is what keeps Christians in line. Love of G-d keeps Jews and G-d fearing Gentiles serving him.
What about Samuel during the seance with Saul and the Witch of Endor?Was that really Samuel or an evil Spirit?
If it was Samuel then it prooves the existence of a spirit existence seperate from a body.
If it was not Samuel and a disguised evil spirit then that evil spirit is a demon. The origin of demons are the disembodied spirits of the Nephelim. Thus prooving through demons that there is a spiritual existence seperate from the body.
I am not sure what Orthadox Jews, today, believe about demons. I am inclined to think modern Jews view them as mythology, but am willing to be corrected on this. However, many ancient sources including the Talmud indicate Jews believed demons to be the disembodied spirits of the Nephelim.
Thus, backing up the existence of a spiritual existence after death.Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 05 2007,07:08) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 05 2007,23:47) In Judaism when a person who dies in much transgression they just die. There is no afterlife there is no resurrection. End of story. In Christianity, these same people are brought back to life so that the Christian god can say 'see told you so' and then toss them in a lake of fire.
Fear of the lake of fire is what keeps Christians in line. Love of G-d keeps Jews and G-d fearing Gentiles serving him.
What about Samuel during the seance with Saul and the Witch of Endor?Was that really Samuel or an evil Spirit?
If it was Samuel then it prooves the existence of a spirit existence seperate from a body.
There is no real denying this. What does it mean though?
If this was indeed Samuel the key is found here:
1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do
Samuel was likely in the grave awaiting the resurrection at the end times. His soul was in slumber knowing nothing until the world to come. So he had to ask why Saul interrupted this blissful time.
Quote If it was not Samuel and a disguised evil spirit then that evil spirit is a demon. The origin of demons are the disembodied spirits of the Nephelim. Thus prooving through demons that there is a spiritual existence seperate from the body. No demons like in Christianity. Either a spirit sent from G-d or Samuel awakened from his slumber.
Quote I am not sure what Orthadox Jews, today, believe about demons. I am inclined to think modern Jews view them as mythology, but am willing to be corrected on this. However, many ancient sources including the Talmud indicate Jews believed demons to be the disembodied spirits of the Nephelim.
Thus, backing up the existence of a spiritual existence after death.
Traditional Judaism does not believe in demons.Quote (jhenTux @ Nov. 05 2007,18:07) does it really exist?
Hi:My understanding is that no, it does not exist. In this world we have the opportunity to choose whether or not we will obey God. When we die physically, there are no second chances. We are either saved or we are not. No, purgatory where we will go to be purified after death.
Quote Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Quote 1Pe 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?This is it. No second chances after we die.
God Bless
Quote does it really exist? No where in the Bible.
The Teaching of Christ—A Catholic Catechism for Adults states:
“The word ‘purgatory’ is not in the Bible, nor is the doctrine of purgatory explicitly taught there. . . . The works of the Fathers have many references not only to the existence of purgatory, but also the fact that the faithful departed can be helped by the prayers of the living, especially by the Sacrifice of the Mass.”—Pp. 347, 348.
Yet, they believe this:
“According to the teaching of the [Roman Catholic] Church, the state, place, or condition in the next world . . . where the souls of those who die in the state of grace, but not yet free from all imperfection, make expiation for unforgiven venial sins or for the temporal punishment due to venial and mortal sins that have already been forgiven and, by so doing, are purified before they enter heaven.” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) Not a Bible teaching.After reviewing what Catholic writers have said regarding such texts as 2 Maccabees 12:39-45, Matthew 12:32, and 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) acknowledges: “In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”
“The church has relied on tradition to support a middle ground between heaven and hell.”—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 7.
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 06 2007,13:03) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 05 2007,07:08) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 05 2007,23:47) In Judaism when a person who dies in much transgression they just die. There is no afterlife there is no resurrection. End of story. In Christianity, these same people are brought back to life so that the Christian god can say 'see told you so' and then toss them in a lake of fire.
Fear of the lake of fire is what keeps Christians in line. Love of G-d keeps Jews and G-d fearing Gentiles serving him.
What about Samuel during the seance with Saul and the Witch of Endor?Was that really Samuel or an evil Spirit?
If it was Samuel then it prooves the existence of a spirit existence seperate from a body.
There is no real denying this. What does it mean though?
If this was indeed Samuel the key is found here:
1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do
Samuel was likely in the grave awaiting the resurrection at the end times. His soul was in slumber knowing nothing until the world to come. So he had to ask why Saul interrupted this blissful time.
Quote If it was not Samuel and a disguised evil spirit then that evil spirit is a demon. The origin of demons are the disembodied spirits of the Nephelim. Thus prooving through demons that there is a spiritual existence seperate from the body. No demons like in Christianity. Either a spirit sent from G-d or Samuel awakened from his slumber.
Quote I am not sure what Orthadox Jews, today, believe about demons. I am inclined to think modern Jews view them as mythology, but am willing to be corrected on this. However, many ancient sources including the Talmud indicate Jews believed demons to be the disembodied spirits of the Nephelim.
Thus, backing up the existence of a spiritual existence after death.
Traditional Judaism does not believe in demons.
Regardless, you admit in your post that it is “POSSIBLE” to have a spirit “type” existence without a body. Or to atleast have a sentient existence without a body for a time.It is also apparent that Jews throughout history have not universally believed the same thing. The Nephilim concept including the sumerian Annunaki is the most ancient concept within religion that we are aware of. Seriously, the oldest religious semetic documents we find are about nephilim. This is not some product of hellinized jews. READ HISTORY not just your rabbinical tradition you happen to ascribe to.
As a God fearer as you sure you are aligned with the correct tradition of Jews?
The essenes didnt think so. The seperated themselves. Jesus said beware of the leaven of the scribes.
My point being is that I believe Judaism is truth as Chrisianity is truth. But that orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity both have fallen into deception.
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 05 2007,21:46) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 06 2007,13:03) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 05 2007,07:08) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 05 2007,23:47) In Judaism when a person who dies in much transgression they just die. There is no afterlife there is no resurrection. End of story. In Christianity, these same people are brought back to life so that the Christian god can say 'see told you so' and then toss them in a lake of fire.
Fear of the lake of fire is what keeps Christians in line. Love of G-d keeps Jews and G-d fearing Gentiles serving him.
What about Samuel during the seance with Saul and the Witch of Endor?Was that really Samuel or an evil Spirit?
If it was Samuel then it prooves the existence of a spirit existence seperate from a body.
There is no real denying this. What does it mean though?
If this was indeed Samuel the key is found here:
1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do
Samuel was likely in the grave awaiting the resurrection at the end times. His soul was in slumber knowing nothing until the world to come. So he had to ask why Saul interrupted this blissful time.
Quote If it was not Samuel and a disguised evil spirit then that evil spirit is a demon. The origin of demons are the disembodied spirits of the Nephelim. Thus prooving through demons that there is a spiritual existence seperate from the body. No demons like in Christianity. Either a spirit sent from G-d or Samuel awakened from his slumber.
Quote I am not sure what Orthadox Jews, today, believe about demons. I am inclined to think modern Jews view them as mythology, but am willing to be corrected on this. However, many ancient sources including the Talmud indicate Jews believed demons to be the disembodied spirits of the Nephelim.
Thus, backing up the existence of a spiritual existence after death.
Traditional Judaism does not believe in demons.
Regardless, you admit in your post that it is “POSSIBLE” to have a spirit “type” existence without a body. Or to atleast have a sentient existence without a body for a time.It is also apparent that Jews throughout history have not universally believed the same thing. The Nephilim concept including the sumerian Annunaki is the most ancient concept within religion that we are aware of. Seriously, the oldest religious semetic documents we find are about nephilim. This is not some product of hellinized jews. READ HISTORY not just your rabbinical tradition you happen to ascribe to.
As a God fearer as you sure you are aligned with the correct tradition of Jews?
The essenes didnt think so. The seperated themselves. Jesus said beware of the leaven of the scribes.
My point being is that I believe Judaism is truth as Chrisianity is truth. But that orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity both have fallen into deception.
Demonology did not creep in among the Jewish people until they were exiled in Babylon.What I said in my post was that either G-d allowed a spirit to assume the role of Samuel or that the spirit of Samuel that was in the grave awaiting the world to come was temporarily brought forth. Note the words of the spirit: “Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?” What does “bring me up” imply? Up from the grave. Samuel was not in heaven.
What deception do you speak of? Orthodox Christianity believes that when people die their souls go immediately to heaven so you are right if you think that is their deception. Even in your bible that idea is not put forth.
I said orthodox christians are wrong along with orthodox jews.
I believe christians go to hades (sheol) just as Jesus described in Parable of the Rich Man and Lazurus. Christians are on the side of Paradise.
Jesus turned to the thief on his right and said “Today you will be with me in paradise.”
Unless you want to believe the Torah was written after the babylon captivity then this demonology existed prior to that.
The pentatuech is filled with references to the Nephelim, Rephaim, Zazzumin, Anak (Annunaki) etc…I personally, follow the septuagint LXX, as the accurate manuscript of the Jews just as Christ did. The LXX is considered mostly likely the oldest tradition by scholars as well. The LXX is even more explicit in it's angelology and demonology.
My point is that you have came along and sided with Judaism after the Jews had their own form of a “Catholic Church Overhall”. They did the same things the Christians did and dramatically shifted their views. Just as history and textual criticism shines the light of truth on false christian teachings so does that light also shine on traditional Judaism.
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 07 2007,00:39) I said orthodox christians are wrong along with orthodox jews. I believe christians go to hades (sheol) just as Jesus described in Parable of the Rich Man and Lazurus. Christians are on the side of Paradise.
Jesus turned to the thief on his right and said “Today you will be with me in paradise.”
Unless you want to believe the Torah was written after the babylon captivity then this demonology existed prior to that.
The pentatuech is filled with references to the Nephelim, Rephaim, Zazzumin, Anak (Annunaki) etc…I personally, follow the septuagint LXX, as the accurate manuscript of the Jews just as Christ did. The LXX is considered mostly likely the oldest tradition by scholars as well. The LXX is even more explicit in it's angelology and demonology.
My point is that you have came along and sided with Judaism after the Jews had their own form of a “Catholic Church Overhall”. They did the same things the Christians did and dramatically shifted their views. Just as history and textual criticism shines the light of truth on false christian teachings so does that light also shine on traditional Judaism.
To clarify because I know I will need to.Not the LXX translation into greek am I talking about. But the LXX “traditional” manuscripts as found for example in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
At least “two” traditions of manuscripts existed in hebrew and aramaic. These two traditions turned into the masoretic text type and the septuagint text type. This is history.
Archaelogy has proven that the septuagint was not a “bad” translation of the hebrew masoretic text into greek.
It was a “good” translation of the text “tradition” of the LXX.
LXX is considered the older and more likely closer to the original text tradition.
The masoretic texts bare significant evidence of trying to eleminate demonic, angelic and messianic passages that supported those using them to support christianity.
In otherwords the masoretic texts continued to have changes made to it after the death of Christ. This is proven by the Dead Sea Scrolls as both “traditions” of scrolls were present there.
“Is not this written in the Book of Jasher?”–Joshua, x. 13.
“Behold it is written in the Book of Jasher.”–II Samuel, i. 18Ever read the book of Jasher?
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 06 2007,07:39) I said orthodox christians are wrong along with orthodox jews. I believe christians go to hades (sheol) just as Jesus described in Parable of the Rich Man and Lazurus. Christians are on the side of Paradise.
Jesus turned to the thief on his right and said “Today you will be with me in paradise.”
Unless you want to believe the Torah was written after the babylon captivity then this demonology existed prior to that.
The pentatuech is filled with references to the Nephelim, Rephaim, Zazzumin, Anak (Annunaki) etc…I personally, follow the septuagint LXX, as the accurate manuscript of the Jews just as Christ did. The LXX is considered mostly likely the oldest tradition by scholars as well. The LXX is even more explicit in it's angelology and demonology.
My point is that you have came along and sided with Judaism after the Jews had their own form of a “Catholic Church Overhall”. They did the same things the Christians did and dramatically shifted their views. Just as history and textual criticism shines the light of truth on false christian teachings so does that light also shine on traditional Judaism.
You REALLY need to research the Septuagint better. You are looking at biased sites if you think that the LXX is not corrupt. The DSS evidence that 'proves' the LXX is accurate was from cave 4 where nothing was really preserved as the rest. Most objective scholars feel cave 4 was the place where the Qumran community put questionable texts. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic==============================
However, despite these variations, most of the Qumran fragments can be classified as being closer to the Masoretic text than to any other text group that has survived. According to Shiffman, 60% can be classed as being of proto-Masoretic type, and a further 20% Qumran style with bases in proto-Masoretic texts, compared to 5% proto-Samaritan type, 5% Septuagintal type, and 10% non-aligned.[3] Furthermore, according to Haas, most of the texts which vary from the Masoretic type, including four of the Septuagint type manuscript fragments, were found in Cave 4. “This is the cave where the texts were not preserved carefully in jars. It is conjectured, that cave 4 was a geniza for the depositing of texts that were damaged or had textual errors.”
======================================Origen tried to translate the Tanakh using 6 different versions and found that the LXX was so corrupt that he wanted to obtain a copy of the Hebrew text.
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 07 2007,13:16) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 06 2007,07:39) I said orthodox christians are wrong along with orthodox jews. I believe christians go to hades (sheol) just as Jesus described in Parable of the Rich Man and Lazurus. Christians are on the side of Paradise.
Jesus turned to the thief on his right and said “Today you will be with me in paradise.”
Unless you want to believe the Torah was written after the babylon captivity then this demonology existed prior to that.
The pentatuech is filled with references to the Nephelim, Rephaim, Zazzumin, Anak (Annunaki) etc…I personally, follow the septuagint LXX, as the accurate manuscript of the Jews just as Christ did. The LXX is considered mostly likely the oldest tradition by scholars as well. The LXX is even more explicit in it's angelology and demonology.
My point is that you have came along and sided with Judaism after the Jews had their own form of a “Catholic Church Overhall”. They did the same things the Christians did and dramatically shifted their views. Just as history and textual criticism shines the light of truth on false christian teachings so does that light also shine on traditional Judaism.
You REALLY need to research the Septuagint better. You are looking at biased sites if you think that the LXX is not corrupt. The DSS evidence that 'proves' the LXX is accurate was from cave 4 where nothing was really preserved as the rest. Most objective scholars feel cave 4 was the place where the Qumran community put questionable texts. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic==============================
However, despite these variations, most of the Qumran fragments can be classified as being closer to the Masoretic text than to any other text group that has survived. According to Shiffman, 60% can be classed as being of proto-Masoretic type, and a further 20% Qumran style with bases in proto-Masoretic texts, compared to 5% proto-Samaritan type, 5% Septuagintal type, and 10% non-aligned.[3] Furthermore, according to Haas, most of the texts which vary from the Masoretic type, including four of the Septuagint type manuscript fragments, were found in Cave 4. “This is the cave where the texts were not preserved carefully in jars. It is conjectured, that cave 4 was a geniza for the depositing of texts that were damaged or had textual errors.”
======================================Origen tried to translate the Tanakh using 6 different versions and found that the LXX was so corrupt that he wanted to obtain a copy of the Hebrew text.
I agree with that, but which does that source say is considered the older “tradition”? My studies indicate that the Septuagint tradition is considered older. Meaning the Masoretic is younger. Meaning an altered text variant from the septuagint tradition.LXX is not a translation of the Masoretic. It is a seperate tradition. A seperate lineage of text variants. Both text types along with the new testament have corruptions. But God be praised for archaelogy and textual criticism.
This is the part where people hate to conceive the idea that manuscripts have been tampered with. Yes they have been corrupted.
The masoretic tradition was becoming more and more the tradition of text followed. Just as the Jews more and more splintered into groups who no longer believed in angels or demons or spirits etc.
Traditions of men determining “doctrine” and doctrine then determing “scriptures”.
This is a familiar pattern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint
See for yourself.
While reading see what the consensus on these questions are:
Which is the oldest?
Which text variants are influenced by which others?
What is most likely the “original” traditional renderings?
Oh Oh! Now which are we to believe?
Seems the Old Testament is “False” according to the reasoning of Tow! We have an Old Testament older than the one he basis his whole “theory of the “false” Messiah! Now what is Tow going to do?
Of Course one compliments the other. The wording a little different “as the gospels” but the meaning the same.
This is why we are guided by the Spirit OF TRUTH!
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Neither Tow nor Stu can receive the holy Spirit in their present state.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.Thanks MS!
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