Psalms 2:7 this day i have begotten you!

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,11:17)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,00:16) Keith, No one can be a firstborn and be the first of their kind.  A firstborn is not a first created.  A firstborn comes from another of his kind that existed before him. Kathi That is if you assume that “born” does not mean created. There are no examples in scriptures where anything born was not created. Jesus is Lord of Creation The description “first-born of all creation” speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10). God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ (Hebrews 1:2-4). Note that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word “first-born” (Greek word “prototokos”) signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership. Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation. Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: “I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27). Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the first-born of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers. Thus, the phrase “first-born of all creation” proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation! Source WJ

Keith,
you wrote:

Quote

Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: “I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27).

You inserted the word “Christ” but it is not there in the Hebrew. This is talking about David and is accomplished through Christ, the Son of David.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:27)

The unbegotten God is one unbegotten God, not two unbegotten Gods.  The early church fathers often use the word 'unbegotten' in reference to God.  The Son is begotten from the unbegotten God.

Kathi

What is the difference? It is still 2 Gods.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:27)

Also, many translations admit that the Greek is monogenes theos instead of monogenes huios.  Monogenes is made up of two words, mono which is an adjective and gennao which is a verb.  'Only begotten God' NASB John 1:18) reflects the sense of an action as opposed to translating monogenes 'single, only of its kind.'  The NASB has hit the nail on the head!

Then tell us why the NASB didn't translate it that way the other 3 times the word “monogenes” is found refering to Jesus in John?

WJ

[942767]

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 21 2010,00:24)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,08:15) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 19 2010,14:34) Marty I was just reading your post, just one point, you said that The Word of God is God;s Word, so that Word became flesh?  That makes no sense at all.  Jehovah God has never been heard or seen, only He that has been with Him from the beginning has seen Him, The Word of God that became Jesus…Rev. 19:13-16 explains it nicely…. read and learn about it….KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.  THE WORD OF GOD WILL COME AS THAT AGAIN…. WITH THOUSANDS OF ANGELS…… Peace Irene Hi Irene: I don't know why this doesn't make sense to you.  Beginning in Genesis 3 and throughout the OT, the Word of God speaks prophetically or symbolically of the coming of the Messiah. God knew that a particular point in time he would conceive His Son in the womb of the virgin Mary, and so, this what the Word was made flesh means.  In parenthesis we have in the following “and we beheld his glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth”.  That explains what is being said by the “Word was made flesh” to me. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Look at this scripture. Rev 13:8   And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.   Do you agree that the “Lamb” is Jesus Christ, the son of God? Slain from the foundation, before creation, means, he knew that he would have to die for us, even before man was created. The son existed long before creation, the name Jesus was given to him at birth as a human. Georg

Hi Georg:

Yes, of course I agree that Jesus is the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. God knew that a particular point in time he would conceive a Son through whom he would save humanity.

God has seen every thing from the beginning to the end, and that is why the scripture states that he was slain from the foundation of the world. This was God's plan.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi Kathi:

You say to Shimmer:

Quote

I have taken the liberty to rewrite the verses that you put up with adding the understanding of there being an unbegotten God who has a Son, the begotten God

Who gave you the right to re-write these verses? Apparently, that is also what the translators who said that there was an unbegotten God did also. There is no unbegotten God.

Kathi, God is a Spirit.

Quote

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Quote

John 14:7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Quote

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us

Kathi, his name is called, not he is called Emmanuel, why? Because he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross. Hebrews 1 states that God was speaking to humanity through him.

Also, Jesus was not already the express image of God when he was born into this world of the virgin Mary, but he became that through obedience to the Word of God, and that is how he could say that “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.

The following scripture states that he was perfected in this world. He was not already perfect.

Quote

Hebrews 5:7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Love in Christ,
Marty

[JustAskin]

94,

Complete excellence. In that post, you are blessed.

And when he was 'perfected' his Father 'begot' him as the 'perfect' Son in Spirit, a spiritual betting of a human person.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,11:34)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:27) The unbegotten God is one unbegotten God, not two unbegotten Gods.  The early church fathers often use the word 'unbegotten' in reference to God.  The Son is begotten from the unbegotten God. Kathi What is the difference? It is still 2 Gods. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:27) Also, many translations admit that the Greek is monogenes theos instead of monogenes huios.  Monogenes is made up of two words, mono which is an adjective and gennao which is a verb.  'Only begotten God' NASB John 1:18) reflects the sense of an action as opposed to translating monogenes 'single, only of its kind.'  The NASB has hit the nail on the head! Then tell us why the NASB didn't translate it that way the other 3 times the word “monogenes” is found refering to Jesus in John? WJ

Keith,
There is only one true unbegotten God, not two true unbegotten Gods and one true begotten God, not two true begotten Gods.

NASB consistently translates monogenes as only begotten. In John 1:18 the Greek has monogenes theos and is translated as only begotten God because theos means God.

In John 3:16 the Greek has huios and monogenes so that would be 'only begotten Son' because 'huios means son.

In John 1:14 huios and /or theos is not in the Greek with monogenes and that is why it is translated only begotten.

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:05)

Hi Kathi: You say to Shimmer: Quote I have taken the liberty to rewrite the verses that you put up with adding the understanding of there being an unbegotten God who has a Son, the begotten God Who gave you the right to re-write these verses?  Apparently, that is also what the translators who said that there was an unbegotten God did also.  There is no unbegotten God.   Kathi, God is a Spirit.   Quote 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. Quote John 14:7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Quote Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us Kathi, his name is called, not he is called Emmanuel, why? Because he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.  Hebrews 1 states that God was speaking to humanity through him. Also, Jesus was not already the express image of God when he was born into this world of the virgin Mary, but he became that through obedience to the Word of God, and that is how he could say that “He who has seen me has seen the Father”. The following scripture states that he was perfected in this world.  He was not already perfect. Quote Hebrews 5:7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,
God gave us a brain…think! I'm trying to help you.

As far as the word 'perfect' in Hebrews 5:9, it is in the sense of Him fulfilling His work. See the definition of the word translated as perfect, Strong's #5048:

Definition:1) to make perfect, complete
1a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end
2) to complete (perfect)
2a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full
2b) to be found perfect
3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed
4) to accomplish
4a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event
4a1) of the prophecies of the scriptures

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,15:35)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,11:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:27) The unbegotten God is one unbegotten God, not two unbegotten Gods.  The early church fathers often use the word 'unbegotten' in reference to God.  The Son is begotten from the unbegotten God. Kathi What is the difference? It is still 2 Gods. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:27) Also, many translations admit that the Greek is monogenes theos instead of monogenes huios.  Monogenes is made up of two words, mono which is an adjective and gennao which is a verb.  'Only begotten God' NASB John 1:18) reflects the sense of an action as opposed to translating monogenes 'single, only of its kind.'  The NASB has hit the nail on the head! Then tell us why the NASB didn't translate it that way the other 3 times the word “monogenes” is found refering to Jesus in John? WJ Keith, There is only one true unbegotten God, not two true unbegotten Gods and one true begotten God, not two true begotten Gods. NASB consistently translates monogenes as only begotten.  In John 1:18 the Greek has monogenes theos and is translated as only begotten God because theos means God. In John 3:16 the Greek has huios and monogenes so that would be 'only begotten Son' because 'huios means son. In John 1:14 huios and /or theos is not in the Greek with monogenes and that is why it is translated only begotten.

Kathi

You are missing my point. Why did the Apostle John only write John 1:18 calling Jesus “monogenes theos” only once.

“Begotten God” is not written in any other place in the scriptures and most translations do not render it that way, but only the NASB and NWT do.

Unbegotten God is not a term that is found in scriptures either.

It doesn't matter anyways because John didn't use the term before Jesus had come in the flesh, it is not found in John 1:1.

So after Jesus who was the Word that was with God and was God, and was “ginomai” (came into existence) in the likeness of sinful flesh which Paul verifies using the same language in Phil 2:6-8.

Jesus is called the “Mongenes” (single, of its kind, only) theos”.

No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with46 the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET

No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.John 1:18 NIV

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Fathers side, he has made him known. Jon 1:18 ESV

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,11:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,00:16) Keith, No one can be a firstborn and be the first of their kind.  A firstborn is not a first created.  A firstborn comes from another of his kind that existed before him. Kathi That is if you assume that “born” does not mean created. There are no examples in scriptures where anything born was not created. Jesus is Lord of Creation The description “first-born of all creation” speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10). God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ (Hebrews 1:2-4). Note that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word “first-born” (Greek word “prototokos”) signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership. Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation. Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: “I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27). Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the first-born of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers. Thus, the phrase “first-born of all creation” proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation! Source WJ Keith, you wrote: Quote Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: “I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27). You inserted the word “Christ” but it is not there in the Hebrew. This is talking about David and is accomplished through Christ, the Son of David.

Kathi

I didn't insert anything, the source did. But it is obvious that the verse is speaking of Jesus.

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,16:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,15:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,11:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:27) The unbegotten God is one unbegotten God, not two unbegotten Gods.  The early church fathers often use the word 'unbegotten' in reference to God.  The Son is begotten from the unbegotten God. Kathi What is the difference? It is still 2 Gods. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:27) Also, many translations admit that the Greek is monogenes theos instead of monogenes huios.  Monogenes is made up of two words, mono which is an adjective and gennao which is a verb.  'Only begotten God' NASB John 1:18) reflects the sense of an action as opposed to translating monogenes 'single, only of its kind.'  The NASB has hit the nail on the head! Then tell us why the NASB didn't translate it that way the other 3 times the word “monogenes” is found refering to Jesus in John? WJ Keith, There is only one true unbegotten God, not two true unbegotten Gods and one true begotten God, not two true begotten Gods. NASB consistently translates monogenes as only begotten.  In John 1:18 the Greek has monogenes theos and is translated as only begotten God because theos means God. In John 3:16 the Greek has huios and monogenes so that would be 'only begotten Son' because 'huios means son. In John 1:14 huios and /or theos is not in the Greek with monogenes and that is why it is translated only begotten. Kathi You are missing my point. Why did the Apostle John only write John 1:18 calling Jesus “monogenes theos” only once. “Begotten God” is not written in any other place in the scriptures and most translations do not render it that way, but only the NASB and NWT do. Unbegotten God is not a term that is found in scriptures either. It doesn't matter anyways because John didn't use the term before Jesus had come in the flesh, it is not found in John 1:1. So after Jesus who was the Word that was with God and was God, and was “ginomai” (came into existence) in the likeness of sinful flesh which Paul verifies using the same language in Phil 2:6-8. Jesus is called the “Mongenes” (single, of its kind, only) theos”. No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with46 the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.John 1:18 NIV No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Fathers side, he has made him known. Jon 1:18 ESV WJ

Keith,
I would say that calling Jesus the only begotten Son of God would mean the same as only begotten theos. If I told you that Cain was the only begotten son of Adam before Able was born, then that would also tell you that Cain was the only begotten man at that time. In other words, by saying that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, we can deduce that He was the only begotten God. Cain was begotten from man, The Son of God was begotten from God.

That is why the Pharisees said that Jesus was making Himself out to be God by going by the name, the Son of God. They understood like begets like.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,16:42)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,16:25) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,15:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,11:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:27) The unbegotten God is one unbegotten God, not two unbegotten Gods.  The early church fathers often use the word 'unbegotten' in reference to God.  The Son is begotten from the unbegotten God. Kathi What is the difference? It is still 2 Gods. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:27) Also, many translations admit that the Greek is monogenes theos instead of monogenes huios.  Monogenes is made up of two words, mono which is an adjective and gennao which is a verb.  'Only begotten God' NASB John 1:18) reflects the sense of an action as opposed to translating monogenes 'single, only of its kind.'  The NASB has hit the nail on the head! Then tell us why the NASB didn't translate it that way the other 3 times the word “monogenes” is found refering to Jesus in John? WJ Keith, There is only one true unbegotten God, not two true unbegotten Gods and one true begotten God, not two true begotten Gods. NASB consistently translates monogenes as only begotten.  In John 1:18 the Greek has monogenes theos and is translated as only begotten God because theos means God. In John 3:16 the Greek has huios and monogenes so that would be 'only begotten Son' because 'huios means son. In John 1:14 huios and /or theos is not in the Greek with monogenes and that is why it is translated only begotten. Kathi You are missing my point. Why did the Apostle John only write John 1:18 calling Jesus “monogenes theos” only once. “Begotten God” is not written in any other place in the scriptures and most translations do not render it that way, but only the NASB and NWT do. Unbegotten God is not a term that is found in scriptures either. It doesn't matter anyways because John didn't use the term before Jesus had come in the flesh, it is not found in John 1:1. So after Jesus who was the Word that was with God and was God, and was “ginomai” (came into existence) in the likeness of sinful flesh which Paul verifies using the same language in Phil 2:6-8. Jesus is called the “Mongenes” (single, of its kind, only) theos”. No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with46 the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.John 1:18 NIV No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Fathers side, he has made him known. Jon 1:18 ESV WJ Keith, I would say that calling Jesus the only begotten Son of God would mean the same as only begotten theos.  If I told you that Cain was the only begotten son of Adam before Able was born, then that would also tell you that Cain was the only begotten man at that time.  In other words, by saying that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, we can deduce that He was the only begotten God.  Cain was begotten from man, The Son of God was begotten from God. That is why the Pharisees said that Jesus was making Himself out to be God by going by the name, the Son of God.  They understood like begets like.

Kathi

Thats your opinion. You can worship 2 Gods or divine beings if you like.

The term Monogenes Son is speaking of Christ after he came in the flesh.

WJ

[Lightenup]

Keith,
Most everything revealed about the Son was revealed after He came in the flesh. That doesn't mean that He wasn't the only begotten Son wasn't the only begotten Son beforehand. Most didn't realize that He was the Son of God till after He was raised from the dead but that doesn't mean that He wasn't the Son of God beforehand. Many still miss the truth that He is the Son of God but that doesn't make Him not the Son of God. John 1:1 tells you that the 'word' is a person because He is 'with' God and that He is also considered God. A son would be that person. Think about it, a substance (nature) within the Father is begotten from Him and is the exact representation of the Father's nature. That is a Son.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,17:17)

Keith, Most everything revealed about the Son was revealed after He came in the flesh.  That doesn't mean that He wasn't the only begotten Son wasn't the only begotten Son beforehand.  Most didn't realize that He was the Son of God till after He was raised from the dead but that doesn't mean that He wasn't the Son of God beforehand.  Many still miss the truth that He is the Son of God but that doesn't make Him not the Son of God.  John 1:1 tells you that the 'word' is a person because He is 'with' God and that He is also considered God.  A son would be that person.  Think about it, a substance (nature) within the Father is begotten from Him and is the exact representation of the Father's nature.  That is a Son.

Kathi

Then please show us a scripture that says he was “begotten” or your definition, “literrally born” from Gods own body” before the ages or time.

WJ

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2010,07:44)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:05) Hi Kathi: You say to Shimmer: Quote I have taken the liberty to rewrite the verses that you put up with adding the understanding of there being an unbegotten God who has a Son, the begotten God Who gave you the right to re-write these verses?  Apparently, that is also what the translators who said that there was an unbegotten God did also.  There is no unbegotten God.   Kathi, God is a Spirit.   Quote 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. Quote John 14:7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Quote Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us Kathi, his name is called, not he is called Emmanuel, why? Because he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.  Hebrews 1 states that God was speaking to humanity through him. Also, Jesus was not already the express image of God when he was born into this world of the virgin Mary, but he became that through obedience to the Word of God, and that is how he could say that “He who has seen me has seen the Father”. The following scripture states that he was perfected in this world.  He was not already perfect. Quote Hebrews 5:7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Love in Christ, Marty Marty, God gave us a brain…think!  I'm trying to help you. As far as the word 'perfect' in Hebrews 5:9, it is in the sense of Him fulfilling His work.  See the definition of the word translated as perfect, Strong's #5048: Definition:1) to make perfect, complete 1a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end 2) to complete (perfect) 2a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full 2b) to be found perfect 3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed 4) to accomplish 4a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event 4a1) of the prophecies of the scriptures

Hi Kathi:

I appreciate you trying to help me, and I also am trying to help you.

What we should both want is to arrive at the truth so that we can teach the Word of God in truth.

And so, having shared what I believe to be the truth of God's Word with you, and we still disagree, my prayer to God is that he reveal the truth of His Word to us so that we may walk in unity, teaching the Word of God in truth.

My desire is God's very best for you and your family.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[shimmer]

Hi Kathi,

OK. Thanks for explaining how you see things. I have been through a sort of similar stage myself but I now understand it as Marty is saying.

And all without needing to change that one important verse, ….In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

But thanks, and thanks Marty,

God bless.

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,18:42)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2010,07:44) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:05) Hi Kathi: You say to Shimmer: Quote I have taken the liberty to rewrite the verses that you put up with adding the understanding of there being an unbegotten God who has a Son, the begotten God Who gave you the right to re-write these verses?  Apparently, that is also what the translators who said that there was an unbegotten God did also.  There is no unbegotten God.   Kathi, God is a Spirit.   Quote 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. Quote John 14:7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Quote Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us Kathi, his name is called, not he is called Emmanuel, why? Because he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.  Hebrews 1 states that God was speaking to humanity through him. Also, Jesus was not already the express image of God when he was born into this world of the virgin Mary, but he became that through obedience to the Word of God, and that is how he could say that “He who has seen me has seen the Father”. The following scripture states that he was perfected in this world.  He was not already perfect. Quote Hebrews 5:7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Love in Christ, Marty Marty, God gave us a brain…think!  I'm trying to help you. As far as the word 'perfect' in Hebrews 5:9, it is in the sense of Him fulfilling His work.  See the definition of the word translated as perfect, Strong's #5048: Definition:1) to make perfect, complete 1a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end 2) to complete (perfect) 2a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full 2b) to be found perfect 3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed 4) to accomplish 4a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event 4a1) of the prophecies of the scriptures Hi Kathi: I appreciate you trying to help me, and  I also am trying to help you. What we should both want is to arrive at the truth so that we can teach the Word of God in truth. And so, having shared what I believe to be the truth of God's Word with you, and we still disagree, my prayer to God is that he reveal the truth of His Word to us so that we may walk in unity, teaching the Word of God in truth. My desire is God's very best for you and your family. Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Marty,
Good thing to pray towards. Thank you for trying to help me too. You want me to believe that Jesus was just a man…right? The problem with that is no man, no matter how righteous, can die for all the sins of mankind. Did you know that?

[Ed J]

Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 21 2010,11:16)

Hi Kathi, OK. Thanks for explaining how you see things. I have been through a sort of similar stage myself but I now understand it as Marty is saying. And all without needing to change that one important verse, ….In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. But thanks, and thanks Marty, God bless.

Hi Shimmer,

Have you stopped believing in preexistence? (John 15:27)
There is MUCH Fractal consistency within “The Bible”!
The Seven-fold “Son of God”, Jesus, the Christ…

1) His Pre-existence (Job 38:7)
2) His Conception. (Luke 1:35)
3) His Birth (Mathew 1:18, 20)
4) His Baptism (John 1:33-34)
5) His Ministry (Mathew 14:33)
6) His Crucifixion (Mark 15:39)
7) His Resurrection (Rom.1:4)

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 21 2010,11:16)

Hi Kathi, OK. Thanks for explaining how you see things. I have been through a sort of similar stage myself but I now understand it as Marty is saying. And all without needing to change that one important verse, ….In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. But thanks, and thanks Marty, God bless.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Edit))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Hi Shimmer,

Have you stopped believing in preexistence? (John 15:27)
There is MUCH “Fractal” consistency within The Bible!
The Seven-fold “Son of God”, Jesus, the Christ…

1) His Pre-existence (Job 38:7)
2) His Conception. (Luke 1:35)
3) His Birth (Mathew 1:18, 20)
4) His Baptism (John 1:33-34)
5) His Ministry (Mathew 14:33)
6) His Crucifixion (Mark 15:39)
7) His Resurrection (Rom.1:4)

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[shimmer]

Hi Ed,

Pre-existance,

I believe the word was a part of God , it was God's spoken word, manifested in many different ways and in these last days in Jesus, as Scripture states and as Theophilus explains it..

Theophilus to Autolycus Book II

You will say, then, to me: “You said that God ought not to be contained in a place, and how do you now say that He walked in Paradise?

“Hear what I say. The God and Father, indeed, of all cannot be contained, and is not found in a place, for there is no place of His rest; but His Word, through whom He made all things, being His power and His wisdom, assuming the person of the Father and Lord of all, went to the garden in the person of God, and conversed with Adam.

For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice. But what else is this voice but the Word of God, who is also His Son? Not as the poets and writers of myths talk of the sons of gods begotten from intercourse [with women], but as truth expounds, the Word, that always exists, residing within the heart of God. For before anything came into being He had Him as a counsellor, being His own mind and thought.

But when God wished to make all that He determined on, He begot this Word, uttered, the first-born of all creation, not Himself being emptied of the Word [Reason], but having begotten Reason, and always conversing with His Reason.

And hence the holy writings teach us, and all the spirit-bearing [inspired] men, one of whom, John, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,” showing that at first God was alone, and the Word in Him. Then he says, “The Word was God; all things came into existence through Him; and apart from Him not one thing came into existence.” The Word, then, being God, and being naturally produced from God, whenever the Father of the universe wills, He sends Him to any place; and He, coming, is both heard and seen, being sent by Him, and is found in a place.

So yes, it seems to say the word pre-existed but was a part of God and was God. As John 1:1 says.

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2010,12:06)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,18:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2010,07:44) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:05) Hi Kathi: You say to Shimmer: Quote I have taken the liberty to rewrite the verses that you put up with adding the understanding of there being an unbegotten God who has a Son, the begotten God Who gave you the right to re-write these verses?  Apparently, that is also what the translators who said that there was an unbegotten God did also.  There is no unbegotten God.   Kathi, God is a Spirit.   Quote 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. Quote John 14:7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Quote Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us Kathi, his name is called, not he is called Emmanuel, why? Because he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.  Hebrews 1 states that God was speaking to humanity through him. Also, Jesus was not already the express image of God when he was born into this world of the virgin Mary, but he became that through obedience to the Word of God, and that is how he could say that “He who has seen me has seen the Father”. The following scripture states that he was perfected in this world.  He was not already perfect. Quote Hebrews 5:7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Love in Christ, Marty Marty, God gave us a brain…think!  I'm trying to help you. As far as the word 'perfect' in Hebrews 5:9, it is in the sense of Him fulfilling His work.  See the definition of the word translated as perfect, Strong's #5048: Definition:1) to make perfect, complete 1a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end 2) to complete (perfect) 2a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full 2b) to be found perfect 3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed 4) to accomplish 4a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event 4a1) of the prophecies of the scriptures Hi Kathi: I appreciate you trying to help me, and  I also am trying to help you. What we should both want is to arrive at the truth so that we can teach the Word of God in truth. And so, having shared what I believe to be the truth of God's Word with you, and we still disagree, my prayer to God is that he reveal the truth of His Word to us so that we may walk in unity, teaching the Word of God in truth. My desire is God's very best for you and your family. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, Good thing to pray towards.  Thank you for trying to help me too.  You want me to believe that Jesus was just a man…right?  The problem with that is no man, no matter how righteous, can die for all the sins of mankind.  Did you know that?

Hi Kathi:

This is what the scriptures state:

Quote

1 Corinthians 15:19-22 (King James Version) 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Love in Christ,
Marty

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