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I have a question referring to this bible chapter.
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,Proverbs 8:22-30
Who else was there before the world began? Well:
BEFORE THE WORLD
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
John 17:5APPOINTED
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Proverbs 8:23Also, Jesus is 'anointed'
18″The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
Luke 4:18—————————————–
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.
36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.”
Proverbs 8:33-3636Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.”
John 3:3668 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
John 6:68————————————-
I list these scriptures out of curiosity. In the beginning of this chapter, in some bibles it's listed as a woman speaking.
1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?Is this chapter referring to Jesus in verses 22-36? Or another?
Hi and welcome,
Personally I believe these speak of wisdom itself as the essence of all of the creation of God. It is woven into everything created so there is order and beauty and purpose. It is that wisdom that when seen allows no man any excuse that there is a Creator.
It is that wisdom that Solomon was praised for seeking.
It is that wisdom that James said any man can ask God for
It is that wisdom that imbued fully the Son of God.The personification of wisdom found in the 8th chapter of Proverbs is not merely a device to explain the characteristics of an abstract quality. It also symbolically refers to Jehovah’s most important creation. Wisdom goes on to say:
“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land.”—Proverbs 8:22-26.How well the foregoing description of wisdom personified matches what is stated concerning “the Word” in the Scriptures! “In the beginning the Word was,” wrote the apostle John, “and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” (John 1:1) Personified wisdom figuratively represents God’s Son, Jesus Christ, in his prehuman existence.
The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.
Jesus Christ is the very embodiment of God’s wisdom. “Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.” (Colossians 2:3)
david
Quote (david @ Dec. 07 2005,06:39) The personification of wisdom found in the 8th chapter of Proverbs is not merely a device to explain the characteristics of an abstract quality. It also symbolically refers to Jehovah’s most important creation. Wisdom goes on to say:
“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land.”—Proverbs 8:22-26.How well the foregoing description of wisdom personified matches what is stated concerning “the Word” in the Scriptures! “In the beginning the Word was,” wrote the apostle John, “and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” (John 1:1) Personified wisdom figuratively represents God’s Son, Jesus Christ, in his prehuman existence.
The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.
Jesus Christ is the very embodiment of God’s wisdom. “Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.” (Colossians 2:3)
david
Thanks for that David“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago….Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains…When he prepared the heavens I was there; …then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I cam to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,…and the things I was found of were with the sons of men.”
(Prov 8:22-31)Could this passage merely be talking about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract?
The Wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Ps 90:1,2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced.
It was “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person. (Prov 8:1)
(Some say that the holy spirit is spoken of in that manner and so the holy spirit must be an individual. Well, the same reasoning would apply to this scripture then.)
Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since was was God’s Word or spokesman and was the one who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. Elsewhere, he is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God,” and also the “wisdom from God.” (1 cor 1:24,30)david
Hi david,
Prov 8
“1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.”
I love it all. But Jesus does not stand on the streetcorners but the Wisdom of God is infused in all of life and in the order of God's creation, and that is why none can be excused for not recognising the Creator's hand. [rom 1]
Jesus does not dwell with Prudence. He is the wisdom of God but he is more than wisdom even.
Solomon was praised for seeking wisdom above material things.
James too mentions how important it is.Jas 1
” 5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. “
Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
And his name shall be called Wonderful, Councilor… the Mighty God…
By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.King of Kings and Lord of Lords –
ROMANS 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.MATTHEW 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.PHILIPPIANS 2:10-11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
PSALMS 11:7
For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.ISAIAH 55:6
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
REVELATION 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
REVELATION 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich;I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
PSALMS 23:1-3
A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
MATTHEW 5:5-6
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.Hi Malcolm,
But Jesus is more than the Wisdom of God.
And the Wisdom of God encompasses more than Jesus, who is in heaven and in the sons of God..Quote But Jesus is more than the Wisdom of God. Obviously, Jesus, although called:
“the power of God and the wisdom of God,” and also the “wisdom from God.” (1 cor 1:24,30) does not mean that:Jesus = wisdom.
You obviously can't use the words interchangeably.
And nor can you substitue the word “rock” for Jehovah, even though he is a few times called a rock.
But, even though “Jesus is more than wisdom,” as you say, could he not be compared with wisdom?
He who is walking with wise persons become wise, the Bible says. Jesus has been with his Father for a long time. Jesus is wise, beyond what we can imagine. He can be compared to wisdom.
david
Hi David,
You said
“He who is walking with wise persons become wise, the Bible says. Jesus has been with his Father for a long time. Jesus is wise, beyond what we can imagine. He can be compared to wisdom.”Wisdom is a gift from the Spirit of God.
Jesus did not gain wisdom from discussions with His Father.Ex 31
“2 “See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts-“Deut 34.9
“9 Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit [a] of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the LORD had commanded Moses.”
“
1Kn 4.29
” 29 God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore.”Jesus did acquire wisdom from bible study as a youth.
Lk 2
“
40And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. “But then Jesus was filled with the Spirit of Wisdom and power at the Jordan.
Mk 6
” “Where did this man get these things?” they asked. “What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! 3Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph,[a] Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him”1Cor 1.
” 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.”We too can be given wisdom
Jas 1“5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord;”
and 1 Cor 12
“
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,”I personally believe that Jesus is Wisdom just as I believe he is also truth and life. I could speak of truth and life in an attribute sense and it wouldn't be talking of Jesus, similarly the same with wisdom. Most of the time, wisdom, life, truth, are spoken of as attributes or qualities and are not used to define a person or identity.
Quoting scriptures that talk about life in a qualitative sense doesn't nullify that Jesus is the life. If scripture didn't say that Jesus was the life, would that mean that he wasn't the life?
I personally think the same for wisdom, power, and light. They are all attributes of God, but they are also who Jesus is as he is the expressed image of God.
Ephesians 2:7
in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:Hi t8,
I can go with that thought.
After all we are on a quest for wisdom and truth
and if we also find knowledge and understanding
they are bonuses.NH
Quote But Jesus is more than the Wisdom of God. WJ Quote Worship God our Saviour!
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.And then….
Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.And so fulfilled the prophesy of Isaiah…
Isa 9:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, **The mighty God**, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.Matt 1:
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, **God with us**.Take note Arian followers, he was the mighty God, God with us before the baptism at the Jordan.
Lk 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.Tts 1:
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.Tts 2:
10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;Tts 3:4
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,Jud 1:25
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.Remeber , he that hath the Son hath the Father, also he that honors the Son honors the Father also.
I Jn 2:
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.I Jn 4:
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ [Word/God, the Mighty God] is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ [Word/God the Mighty God] is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.Compare with…
I Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God [the Mighty God] was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.So for all the Arian believers and followers…
If you honor the Father then you have to honor the Son.
The Son is fully honored when he is aknowledge for who he is,
The Mighty God, the Word that was with God and the Word that was God who never ceased being God but left his place beside his Father and became a servant by taking on human form, becoming a Son, and submitting to the Father even to death of the cross. Who is now exalted back to his original Glory that he shared with the Father as God, seated at the right hand of the Father, and has been given all power, and authority, all the fullness of the Godhead being in him, and is given a name above ALL Names, JESUS.
Phil 2
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Glory and honor is given to the Father when every tongue confesses that Jesus is Lord, Mighty God, prince of peace, Lord of Lords, King of Kings.
Heb 1:
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.Pss 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.Let all men fall to their knees and obey the Fathers command to worship the Mighty God Jesus!
Give him the honor that is due his name!
Jn 5:23
That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Jn 8:54
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:Jn 8:54
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:The word for honoureth is doxazo, which means;
1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
See how the Father exalts and praises Jesus?
Jn 12:26
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.You cant have the Father without having the Son.
You cant Honour and acknowedge the Father without giving the Same Honour and acknowedgement to the Son.
II Peter 1:17
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Jn 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.look at how the Host of heaven honours him!!!
Rev 5:
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having ever
y one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!
Well presented Worshipping Jesus!
NH
Quote Hi CB,
Do you know God?God is the God of Jesus
The Son is also the God of the Father.
Notice the worshipful phrase by the Father.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
“O God” or “O My God” are worshipful phrases.
Even within the Godhead there is reverence One for Another.
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