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Hi,
Winning debates was the entertainment of fools at the Mars hill.[acts 17]
Salvation found through obeying the Word is rather more helpful.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2009,11:26) Hi,
Winning debates was the entertainment of fools at the Mars hill.[acts 17]
Salvation found through obeying the Word is rather more helpful.
Yes Nick. As you have observed before, we post here in an effort to clear things for the curious reader lest they become misled. Winning debates is the trophy of men.Quote (SEEKING @ Mar. 29 2009,09:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2009,15:14) Quote (SEEKING @ Mar. 27 2009,13:52) thethinker,Mar. wrote:Seeking,
Agreed. But Gene said that the Father took “full responsibility” as if the Son had no part in it. Speaking of Jesus Peter said,
Thinker,It does appear the Father did take the “full responsibilty”
for the solution to man's sin problem and provided Jesus as the perfect sacrifice.Granted, Jesus did the suffering and received the abuse after submitting himself to the Fathers will.
This is probably another of those moot points.
Blessings in your wallk with the Lord,
Seeking
Hi SeekingThen what do you do with this scripture?
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:17, 18
WJ
Hi SEEKINGQuote (SEEKING @ Mar. 29 2009,09:13)
WJ,What do I do with it regarding what? The Father took full responsibilty to provide our redemption in Christ by the sacrifice of Christ.
I agree, however the responsibility became Jesus's when he was sent into the world. Jesus said…Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and “TO GIVE HIS LIFE” a ransom for many. Matt 20:28
”WHO GAVE HIMSELF” a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.1 Tim 2:6
Jesus plainly said that it was “HIS LIFE” to give. It was fully “HIS RESPONSIBILITY” to obey the Father or not to.
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Heb 10:7
Quote (SEEKING @ Mar. 29 2009,09:13)
Once Christ knew the Fathers plan for his life, he made the statement that no one (man, government, ruling power, etc)
could take his life from him.
That is inference on your part.How about this… JESUS KNEW WHO HE WAS and that everything was his and that he had the power to lay down his life and the power to take it up again….
“JESUS KNOWING THAT THE FATHER HAD GIVEN ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS”, and that he was come from God, and went to God; John 13:3
“ALL THINGS THAT THE FATHER HATH ARE MINE:” therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 15:16
Quote (SEEKING @ Mar. 29 2009,09:13)
Note carefully the text you cite says, “This commandment have I received of my Father.” The father took resposibilty,issued the command, and the son obeyed.What's the problem?
Blessings,
Seeking
The fact that the Father gave the command in no way negates Jesus words when he said…Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, BUT I LAY IT DOWN OF MYSELF. I HAVE POWER TO LAY IT DOWN, AND I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:17, 18
The problem you have is you said…
Quote (SEEKING @ Mar. 27 2009,13:52) It does appear the Father did take the “full responsibilty”
for the solution to man's sin problem and provided Jesus as the perfect sacrifice.
The “FULL” responsibility was neither the Fathers nor Jesus alone.Of course isn’t this true concerning anything about God? The Father never does anything without the Son and the Son never does anything without the Father and the Spirit proceeds from both of them.
I wonder why?
Blessings WJ
WJ,
You say
“The Father never does anything without the Son “
Where is this written?John 15:26
“When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,The Spirit originates from God and is given to the Son to be given to us.
You are sadly confused if you think this points to any trinity.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2009,12:11) Of course isn’t this true concerning anything about God? The Father never does anything without the Son and the Son never does anything without the Father and the Spirit proceeds from both of them. I wonder why?
Blessings WJ
Luk 1:34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy–the Son of God.The Father never does anything without the son? Without the Father there would be no son. As another puts it, that is reality.
Blessings,
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote Two sides to every coin. If Seeking really believed there were two sides to every coin he would admit that our salvation was a shared responsibility on the part of Christ and the Father. He would ask himself, “Why was Christ rewarded and seated at the right hand of God?”
Hey Seeking, what about this? If it was the Father's full responsibility then why did the Father reward Christ's obedience? Your view is so dog gone illogical it's not funny. You have committed intellectual suicide.
thinker
Seeking said:
Quote Without the Father there would be no son. As another puts it, that is reality. Seeking's statement above infers that the Holy Spirit is the literal “father” of Jesus. The physical “reality” is that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and not the Father. So the term “Father” in reference to Christ's relationship to God was a figurative expression. Hebrews 11 says that Isaac was Abraham's only begotten son “figuratively” . So Christ also was God's only begotten Son figuratively.
What Seeking does not, or maybe will refuses to understand is that there is spiritual reality too.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 30 2009,13:39) “Why was Christ rewarded and seated at the right hand of God?”
Will you refuse your reward?Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ–by grace you have been saved–
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 30 2009,13:48) Seeking's statement above infers that the Holy Spirit is the literal “father” of Jesus. The physical “reality” is that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and not the Father. So the term “Father” in reference to Christ's relationship to God was a figurative expression.
I would reverse the analogy. God, through the Spirit, is the “literal” Father of Jesus. Joseph is the “figurative” father.As “Thinker” pointed out – ” that there is spiritual
reality too.Thinker, here is the best suggestion yet by Nick –
Hi TT,
If God rewarded Jesus then Jesus was not God.
No trinity support there.
Why not drop it?Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 31 2009,08:48) Seeking said: Quote Without the Father there would be no son. As another puts it, that is reality. Seeking's statement above infers that the Holy Spirit is the literal “father” of Jesus. The physical “reality” is that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and not the Father. So the term “Father” in reference to Christ's relationship to God was a figurative expression. Hebrews 11 says that Isaac was Abraham's only begotten son “figuratively” . So Christ also was God's only begotten Son figuratively.
What Seeking does not, or maybe will refuses to understand is that there is spiritual reality too.
thinker
Hi tt,
Isaac really was the son of Abraham.
Heb 11
19He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2009,09:59) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 31 2009,08:48) Seeking said: Quote Without the Father there would be no son. As another puts it, that is reality. Seeking's statement above infers that the Holy Spirit is the literal “father” of Jesus. The physical “reality” is that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and not the Father. So the term “Father” in reference to Christ's relationship to God was a figurative expression. Hebrews 11 says that Isaac was Abraham's only begotten son “figuratively” . So Christ also was God's only begotten Son figuratively.
What Seeking does not, or maybe will refuses to understand is that there is spiritual reality too.
thinker
Hi tt,
Isaac really was the son of Abraham.
Heb 11
19He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.
Nick,
Isaac was NOT Abraham's “only begotten son” literally speaking. Abraham has TWO sons. Chew on that for a while.The word “type” is not in the Greek. The word is “parabole” which means “figuratively”. After Ishamel was cast out of the covenant Abraham received Isaac as his “only begotten” figuratively. Abraham still had TWO sons in the literal sense.
Jesus was God's only begotten Son figuratively. This is what non-trinitarians can't understand.
thinker
Nick said:
Quote If God rewarded Jesus then Jesus was not God.
No trinity support there.
Why not drop it?Nick,
I never said that the trinity doctrine was inferred from Christ's obedience and subsequent reward. The divinity of Christ is expressed in the Scriptures which declare He existed as God before He became a servant. You know what I believe and you know trinitarianism. We all agree that Christ obeyed God and was rewarded for this. But He was God become servant.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2009,10:30) Hi tt,
MONOGENES does never mean the ONLY son.
The word “monogenes” means “only begotten” Nick. Isaac was not Abraham's only begotten literally. And Christ was not God's only begotten literally.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2009,10:39) Hi TT,
Was he worshiped as another god in heaven?
I thought you believed in ONE God?
I have said over and over and over again that I believe that God is a plural unity.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2009,10:46) Hi TT,
But Jesus said God is ONE
God is a plural one. Psalm 23 says the YHWH is the shepherd. Ezekiel says that there is one shepherd. Jesus said “I am the good shepherd.”It's not hard to figure out.
thinker
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