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Quote (Cindy @ April 30 2009,06:21) Let me give my two cents here. I agree with you thinker that Jesus preexisted before the world was. However I do not agree that He existed from all eternity.
John 1:1 tells us that He was the word,but in Rev. 3:14 that He was the firstborn of all creation. And by the power of the Father He created all.
Also in Co. 1:15 It tells us that He was the image of the invisible God,the firstborn over all creation.Proverbs 8:22 ” The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before his works of old. From the beginning before there was no earth.” etc. That shows that He was created, not there from all eternity.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,
The word “firstborn” in Jewish thought meant first in rank. In reference to Jesus it simply means supreme. And “all creation” in Colossians 1 means “all mankind. In verse 23 Paul said that the gospel was preached to all creation. This refers to mankind. The apostles did not preach to dogs and cats and rocks and trees.Therefore, Paul was saying that Jesus was supreme over all mankind. He was NOT saying that Jesus was created. John 1:3 says that not one thing came into being without the Word.
thinker
Nick said:
Quote Hi TT,
No man can make anyone his father.Sons come from fathers and the moment God shared His Spirit with Jesus at the Jordan and they became one, Jesus was declared by God to be His son.
We should rather believe God.
Nick,
I asked you to tell me when “TODAY” occurred.Quote “TODAY I have become your father (NIV) When God said to Jesus “TODAY I have become your father” when did this happen?
thinker
Hi all,
Nothing had come into being until AFTER day 1 except the Light, the heavens and the earth were not completed before day one and hence did not fully come into being. On day one, Light was brought forth. After light was brought forth is when the earth got its name and heaven got its name. Neither had come into being (to completion) till then. Jesus is the Light, the firstborn of all creation, the word of GOD by whom all things were made that were made (to completion.)
In the beginning (sometime between Gen 1:1 and day seven of creation)
Was the word (Let there be Light was the first word spoken in the Bible)
The word was with GOD (Light was with GOD)
The word was God (The Son is God from GOD and Light from LIGHT…He is not the actual GOD that He is from nor is He the actual Light that He is from, He is the Son…He received the nature of God by birth and not creation) as I understand it.
LUQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,04:31) Hi TT,
God announced that He was His Son at the Jordan so it was not after then was it?
So how does God announcing to the world that Jesus was His Son mean that Jesus was reborn at that point.I ask this because a child can be conceived and born and a the child's father may not ever announce his kinship to that child. My point being that the announcement and conception or birth do not necessary go together. Technically a father may announce that a child not his own is his child.
From what I see you are inferring something that is at best implied and I have my doubts it is even hinted at in scripture.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,05:36) Hi KW,
Did I say that?
Not this time but other times you have and it finally clicked that I should check what was actually said in scripture. I am fairly sure though not certain I remember correctly.Have you changed your mind since I last heard you voice that opinion or is my memory faulty?
If so then when do you believe Jesus was “reborn” in spirit?
Quote (thethinker @ April 29 2009,14:05) Nick,
I asked you to tell me when “TODAY” occurred.Quote “TODAY I have become your father (NIV) When God said to Jesus “TODAY I have become your father” when did this happen?
thinker
On at least one other occassion, “TODAY”(equallyrendered “on this day”) Has been identified as follows –The words, This day have I begotten thee, must refer either to his incarnation, when he was miraculously conceived in the womb of the virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit; or to his resurrection from the dead, when God, by this sovereign display of his almighty energy, declared him to be his Son, vindicated his innocence, and also the purity and innocence of the blessed virgin, who was the mother of this son, and who declared him to be produced in her womb by the power of God. The resurrection of Christ, therefore, to which the words most properly refer, not only gave the fullest proof that he was an innocent and righteous man, but also that he had accomplished the purpose for which he died, and that his conception was miraculous, and his mother a pure and unspotted virgin.
Adam Clarke CommentaryThis day. 1. Acts 13:33″, where this passage is applied to the resurrection of Christ from the dead;–proving that the phrase “this day” does not refer to the doctrine of eternal generation, but to the resurrection of the Redeemer–“the FIRST-BEGOTTEN of the dead,” Revelation 1:6. Thus Theodoret says of the phrase “this day”–” It does not express his eternal generation, but that which is connected with time.” The argument of the apostle here does not turn on the time when this was said, but on the fact that this was said to him, and not to any one of the angels; and this argument will have equal force, whether the phrase be understood as referring to the fact of his resurrection, or to his previous existence.
Barne's Notes on the New TestamentToday I have begotten You refers to Jesus' resurrection from the dead. At that time He fully assumed His role as our great High Priest, having been perfected (Hebrews 5:9).
David Guzik's Commentaries on the BibleThe day was the day of the resurrection in which the Bible states,
Act 13:33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, “'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'
The resurrection is the day of “declaration”
Rom 1:4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
So, “TODAY” a day of “declaration” of the “consumation” that had taken place prior.
I wonder, is it an explanation of “TODAY” that is sought or will all explanations in disagreement with the supposition be rejected and answered with a repeat of, “I asked you to tell me when “TODAY” occurred.”
Seeking
Quote (kerwin @ April 30 2009,10:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,05:36) Hi KW,
Did I say that?
Not this time but other times you have and it finally clicked that I should check what was actually said in scripture. I am fairly sure though not certain I remember correctly.Have you changed your mind since I last heard you voice that opinion or is my memory faulty?
If so then when do you believe Jesus was “reborn” in spirit?
Hi KW,
If Jesus was not a man reborn at the Jordan we cannot follow him.Hi S,
God spoke at the Jordan and at other times before the resurrection.Matthew 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Should God have said THIS WILL BE?
Rom1 simply shows the fulfilment of the prophecies about the coming son redeemer who would be raised were proven to have been fulfilled when he was raised[Ps2, prov30, Acts2-3]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,06:05) Quote (kerwin @ April 30 2009,10:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,05:36) Hi KW,
Did I say that?
Not this time but other times you have and it finally clicked that I should check what was actually said in scripture. I am fairly sure though not certain I remember correctly.Have you changed your mind since I last heard you voice that opinion or is my memory faulty?
If so then when do you believe Jesus was “reborn” in spirit?
Hi KW,
If Jesus was not a man reborn at the Jordan we cannot follow him.
I did not say Jesus is not a man as we are and I did not say he was not a man with a reborn spirit. What I said is you cannot jump to the conclusion that Jesus was reborn at the Jordon river. I believe you understanding comes from the fact that under the new covenant one is reborn at the time of water baptism bud that understanding is misapplied to the situation of Jesus' baptism since John's baptism was only a baptism of repentance and not of rebirth. The question you should ask is at what time did Jesus show the fruits of the Spirit. I am not speaking of the gifts but I am speaking of the fruits. I am pretty sure you understand the difference though some here may not.Quote (Lightenup @ April 30 2009,09:30) Hi all, Nothing had come into being until AFTER day 1 except the Light, the heavens and the earth were not completed before day one and hence did not fully come into being. On day one, Light was brought forth. After light was brought forth is when the earth got its name and heaven got its name. Neither had come into being (to completion) till then. Jesus is the Light, the firstborn of all creation, the word of GOD by whom all things were made that were made (to completion.)
In the beginning (sometime between Gen 1:1 and day seven of creation)
Was the word (Let there be Light was the first word spoken in the Bible)
The word was with GOD (Light was with GOD)
The word was God (The Son is God from GOD and Light from LIGHT…He is not the actual GOD that He is from nor is He the actual Light that He is from, He is the Son…He received the nature of God by birth and not creation) as I understand it.
LU
To All,
Jesus is the Son of God by decree.Quote I will declare the decree: The LORD said to me, “You are my son, TODAY I have begotten you” (Psalms 2:7)
The new testament says that this happened when Jesus was resurrected and exalted into heaven (Heb. 1:1-5). The reply Kathi gives is that Jesus was begotten twice. The absurdity of this theory is obvious. No father begets the same child twice.
Kathi says that Jesus was begotten the first time ontologically, that is, God reproduced Himself. Was Jesus' second begetting ontological also? Did God reproduce Himself again? How can God reproduce a second time and have only one son? How can God beget the same son twice?
Paul said also that Jesus was the Son of God by decree
Quote …decreed to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness through the resurrection of the dead (Rom. 1:1-3) Paul clearly said that Christ became God's Son “through the resurrection of the dead.” Before the resurrection and exaltation Jesus was the son of God only by decree.
Let's take Abraham as an example. When God said to Abraham “I have made thee a father of many nations” Abraham became a father at that moment by decree. And Paul said that God was “calling into being things that were not yet as though they were” (Rom. 4). But the decree was not actualized UNTIL the new covenant was instituted and gentiles came in to salvation. It was THEN that Abraham ACTUALLY became a father of many nations.
Jesus was the Son of God by decree and not by God reproducing Himself. It was as though he was the Son of God. And Hebrews 5 confirms this saying that Jesus was a son but had to learn obedience through suffering. It says that he had to be made perfect in order to inherit the name “Son of God” and be begotten by God. It was at his resurrection and exaltation that Jesus ACTUALLY became the Son of God. Thus the decree was fulfilled.
Kathi's theory that God reproduced Himself is nonsense and she can't make it work. And in trying to make it work she must say that Jesus was begotten twice. Therefore, God reproduced Himself twice and ends up still with only one son.
thinker
Hi KW,
Do you think the fruits are sometimes given when gifts are not?
He was a faithful son to his guiding Father.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,06:23) Hi KW,
Do you think the fruits are sometimes given when gifts are not?
He was a faithful son to his guiding Father.
The answer is the gifts are given when fruits are not. You can read of many receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament who could not have received the fruits since Jesus had not died yet. The reverse can also occur though it did concern even the apostles when it did happen according to accounts in Acts.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,06:44) Hi KW,.
Where does scripture say that the Spirit is divided?
Why do you think that God using the Spirit as He chooses means the Spirit is divided. Have you not read1 Corinthians 12:4-7(KJV) reads:
Quote Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
So as God gives a diversity of the gifts themselves then why can he not choose to give either the gift or the fruits as he deems appropriate to the situation.
To all,
How many lives does the scripture say we have. Does it not say that we have a mortal life and then an immortal life,
an earthly body and a heavenly body? We seem to get placed within two different bodies thus two different bodies receive the same life. First we have the perishable body, one life, then we put on the imperishable, which equal two seperate beginnings. Why would it be difficult for the Father to reproduce a Son of His own nature filling a heavenly body, transferring Him to a body of flesh as a baby with all the characteristics of a baby, and then transferring Him to a heavenly body again. Each time, the body receives life and is in a sense born again. The same being with the same Father transfiguring into three different body types yet the same son. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
LUHi KW,
Yes all have been given fruit and some manifestations of the gifts should be in all for the sake of the body.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2009,16:15) Hi S,
God spoke at the Jordan and at other times before the resurrection.Matthew 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Should God have said THIS WILL BE?
Rom1 simply shows the fulfilment of the prophecies about the coming son redeemer who would be raised were proven to have been fulfilled when he was raised[Ps2, prov30, Acts2-3]
Have you read any of my other posts? If so I believe you would know my view is one of the Physical birth you mention as well as Jesus being the “firstborn” from the dead which the “TODAY” referenced speaks of.Perhaps you could share your offering of what “TODAY” or “this day” represents as requested.
It does not appear you digested what I wrote regarding “declaration” and “consumation” either.
Blessings,
Seeking
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