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Hi SEEKING
Quote (SEEKING @ April 11 2009,10:05)
Thinker says…Quote The Father and the Son ALWAYS act as one Not so! They act independently in accordance with their role,
and their roles are different. We already covered this though our opinions may vary.Can you give us an example where Jesus acted independently of the Father?
The roles are different but they acted as one!
The Father does nothing without the Son and the Son does nothing without the Father and the Spirit proceeds from them both.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2009,10:24) Hi SEEKING Quote (SEEKING @ April 11 2009,10:05)
Thinker says…Quote The Father and the Son ALWAYS act as one Not so! They act independently in accordance with their role,
and their roles are different. We already covered this though our opinions may vary.Can you give us an example where Jesus acted independently of the Father?
The roles are different but they acted as one!
The Father does nothing without the Son and the Son does nothing without the Father and the Spirit proceeds from them both.
WJ
WJ,
Non-trinitarian double talk is showing itself. They say that John 10:30, “I and the Father are one” means that the Father and the Son “act as one.” But…not always? The only time that the Father and the Son were independent was in that moment when the Son was dying for our sin and His Father forsook Him.Seeking said:
Quote …their roles are different. It's not enough to tell us their roles were different without defining their roles. Are you up to this?
What did Paul mean when he said that “all things were created FOR Him” (The Son)?
thinker
Hi Thinker,
Quote What did Paul mean when he said that “all things were created FOR Him” (The Son)? Answer these questions and you might find what you are looking for:
What does “inherit” mean?
and
What does Christ inherit?Have fun,
KathiQuote (Tim Kraft @ April 10 2009,06:12) Yes Kathi, Thank You–I believe Jesus was trying to get across to his disciples that as is was in the beginning when God made man and got into him (breathed into him) as his life source. This God/Man never changed.Man had his own mind to think and believe any way he chose.Man chose some incorrect beliefs which like today he thought he had done wrong. God didn't say it was wrong. He told Adam what would happen if he chose to believe in evil or an opposite to God.God is only Good. God never changed his location inside the human being. Man created lots of religious beliefs of how to get to God, how to satisfy God, pacify God etc. God still never changed location where would he go, he's everywhere!!Jesus was saying that the same way God made his abode in Jesus they would make their abode in us.We are the Church which is his body, we are the Temple made without hands, we are ruler's of our own Kingdom within.What ever we express in the Earth we experience. If we live by the sword we die by the sword.If we sow the fruits of the Spirit we will live in peace, love, joy,,meekness, kindness, gentleness etc. With Love, Tim
Hi Tim,
I was wondering if God was in my toaster or my oil paint or my stuffed pillows since you say God is everywhere. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm just trying to get what you are trying to say. I am having trouble grasping it. Is God in my dog since my dog is a living creature? Could it be that God is in the living creation in a sense. Is He in the non-living creation also? How is He in these things? We know that the Spirit of God is able to be in many people at once but He certainly isn't in everybody that is alive. What part of God is in my dog?Also, we were discussing this passage:
John 14:1-614 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 “In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 “And you know the way where I am going.” 5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
NASUAre you saying that people are the dwelling places? I don't get that from this passage. Here Christ is going away to prepare a place for us. If we were the place why would He have to “go” to prepare it?
Thanks,
KathiQuote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2009,10:24) Hi SEEKING Quote (SEEKING @ April 11 2009,10:05)
Thinker says…Quote The Father and the Son ALWAYS act as one Not so! They act independently in accordance with their role,
and their roles are different. We already covered this though our opinions may vary.Can you give us an example where Jesus acted independently of the Father?
The roles are different but they acted as one!
The Father does nothing without the Son and the Son does nothing without the Father and the Spirit proceeds from them both.
WJ
Hi WJ,
The Son was begotten of the Father and the Father did it alone.WorshippingJesus,April wrote:[/quote]
Quote Can you give us an example where Jesus acted independently of the Father? Jesus would act independently only if that were his role.
He readily admitted that was not his role and stated,Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.
Quote The Father does nothing without the Son Nick has given you one example to the contrary. Here are several more that were included in the post I believe you read.
1 Peter 1:19-20 (KJV) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (ESV)
Act 2:23-24 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up,
loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Romans 13:1 (KJV)
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.1 Cor. 2:7 (KJV)
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:1 Peter 1:19-20 (KJV) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (ESV)
Act 2:23-24 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up,
loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Romans 13:1 (KJV)
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.1 Cor. 2:7 (KJV)
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:Seeking
“thethinker,April 10 2009,16:28
WJ,
Non-trinitarian double talk is showing itself. They say that John 10:30, “I and the Father are one” means that the Father and the Son “act as one.” But…not always?”Friends,
We must give this statement “thinker” made to WJ the same weight, value, and credence given to other all encompasing statements he has made regarding “non-trinitarians” –
Quote The non-trinitarians have no meaningful history or legacy of any kind except STIRRING UP TROUBLE. Not all “non-trinitarians” hold Jn.10:30 in the same regard though “thinker” would have us believe “they” have one universal application of the passage.
May I share my understanding of John 10:30.
Joh 10:29 my father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand
Whatever v.30 teaches, it must be considered in light of Jesus'
statement here, My Father…is greater than all,Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
Joh 10:30 ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμενI believe Jesus is stating he and the father are equal in goals, desire for the salvation of manking, of the same will. I do not believe Jesus is stating I am God.
Whatever Jesus means, he has the same desire for you and me –
Joh 17:20-21 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Joh 17:21 ἵνα πάντες ἓν ὦσι, καθὼς σύ, πάτερ, ἐν ἐμοὶ
κἀγὼ ἐν σοί, ἵνα καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐν ἡμῖν ἓν ὦσιν, ἵνα ὁ κόσμος πιστεύῃ ὅτι σύ με ἀπέστειλας.So, what does Jesus want for us as we become one with him and the father? Whatever he desires, that is what he meant by “I and the father are one.” One in goals, desire for the salvation of manking, of the same will. What do you think? Make sense?
Happy Easter,
Seeking
Hi WJ,
The Living Spirit of the Living God infills obedient vessels like Jesus Christ and those who share in his body.Before you hive off after theologians and their follies and diminish those who are divided from you, you should read about the UNITY Jesus had with God and see it is the samer that we can have.
Jn17
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.They are one.
If we can also have that UNITY with God that Jesus speaks of does that not mean by your ideas that we also must BE GOD and thus God would be much more of a multiperson god than a trinity?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 10 2009,15:24) [/quote] Quote Can you give us an example where Jesus acted independently of the Father? Jesus would act independently only if that were his role.
He readily admitted that was not his role and stated,Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.
Quote The Father does nothing without the Son Nick has given you one example to the contrary. Here are several more that were included in the post I believe you read.
1 Peter 1:19-20 (KJV) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (ESV)
Act 2:23-24 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up,
loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Romans 13:1 (KJV)
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.1 Cor. 2:7 (KJV)
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:1 Peter 1:19-20 (KJV) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (ESV)
Act 2:23-24 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up,
loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Romans 13:1 (KJV)
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.1 Cor. 2:7 (KJV)
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:Seeking
Hi SEEKING
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 10 2009,15:24) Can you give us an example where Jesus acted independently of the Father? Quote (SEEKING @ April 11 2009,16:30) Jesus would act independently only if that were his role.
He readily admitted that was not his role and stated,Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.
So in other words your statement…
Quote (SEEKING @ April 11 2009,10:05)
They act independently in accordance with their role,
and their roles are different. We already covered this though our opinions may vary.is not a true statement. Jesus did not act independently of the Father but in fact did the Fathers will?
Can you show me where the Father or Jesus acted independently of each other in the scriptures that you quote?
You have no evidence that the Father did anything without Jesus or that Jesus did anything without the Father. For they are One.
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 12 2009,18:53) Can you show me where the Father or Jesus acted independently of each other in the scriptures that you quote? You have no evidence that the Father did anything without Jesus or that Jesus did anything without the Father. For they are One.
Blessings WJ
If you cannot understand these scriptures, I cannot help you.1 Peter 1:19-20 (KJV) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,God foreordained Jesus, no help from Jesus.
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (ESV)
God had the foreknowledge of the plan and worked out the plan, no help from Jesus.
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
God made known HIS mystery and purpose, he set it forth –
no help from Jesus.Romans 13:1 (KJV)
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.The powers are ordained by God, no help from Jesus
1 Cor. 2:7 (KJV)
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:The wisdom spoken was ordained by God, no help from Jesus
1 Peter 1:19-20 (KJV) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,God foreordained Jesus before the foundation of the world, no help from Jesus
WJ, since you refuse to acknowledge the simplicity of what the scripture say, it will be futile to continue discussion with you. You read these things and then make the statement –
“You have no evidence that the Father did anything without Jesus or that Jesus did anything without the Father. For they are One.” UNBELIEVABLE!1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1) One God – the Father
2) One mediator – JesusThey are not one. God is God and does it WITHOUT Jesus. Jesus is mediator and mediates WITHOUT God. INDEPENDANTLY! Believe the word or believe your bias.
WJ writes
Quote So in other words your statement… Quote (SEEKING @ April 11 2009,10:05)
They act independently in accordance with their role,
and their roles are different. We already covered this though our opinions may vary.is not a true statement. Jesus did not act independently of the Father but in fact did the Fathers will?
Wrong, AGAIN. I usually (usually because I was not as obedient as Jesus) did my father's will. I acted TOTALLY INDEPENDENTLY when I did so. That was a good try on your part at circular reasoning though.
Seeking
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2009,14:30) Hi WJ,
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Do you believe this?
Hi NHDo you believe Jesus is God?
The scriptures say he is!
WJ
Hi WJ,
Jn20
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.Hi Keith,
Do you believe that the Son is equal to the Father?
Do you believe the Son always existed?Blessings,
KathiSEEKING
It is your bias that sees those scriptures as such. For instance when you see the word God you automatically assume it means the Father. Yet we know scriptures also refer to Jesus as God. But you choose with your bias to ignore them.
Also with your bias you interpret the above scriptures.
For instance you quote…
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:20
The Greek word for 'foreordained' is 'proginōskō' which means…
1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
a) of those whom God elected to salvation
3) to predestinate
Now your bias assumes that Jesus wasn't with the Father and did not know, plan and choose to come down from heaven, yet we find in Phil 2:6-8, John 1:1, 14, John 6:33,38,50,51,62 John 17:5, 1 John 1:1-3 Heb 10:5 that Jesus did know and choose to come therefore he and the Father “Foreknew” his destiny!
Again, none of those scriptures mention the father doing anything without Jesus. It is your bias that refuses to see them in light of all the scriptures.
Can you see that?
It is Jesus that the scriptures you quote are speaking of!
If the Father had a will and Jesus did it then the Fathers will was accomplished was it not? The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit together carried out his will.
Its amazing to me how you Arians out of one side of your mouth say that Jesus did nothing of himself, but it was the Father in him and yet you talk out of the other side of your mouth when scriptures do not agree with you.
Did Jesus “independently” act on his own or not?
Did the Father carry out his will with Jesus or without him?
Scriptures declare that they are “One”, yet you say…
Quote (SEEKING @ April 13 2009,15:41) They are not one. God is God and does it WITHOUT Jesus. Jesus is mediator and mediates WITHOUT God. INDEPENDANTLY! Believe the word or believe your bias. Jesus says…
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND.“ John 10:27, 28
Then he says…
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and “NO MAN IS ABLE TO PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY FATHER'S HAND. John 10:29
Yet your bias kicks in and says “see the Father is greater than Jesus”, totally ignoring that Jesus had just said that “no man can pluck them out of his hand”. Then you assume that because of this statement that Jesus is somehow saying that he and the Father are not one. Yet Jesus disagrees with you for the next verse he says…
”I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE”. John 10:30
Yet you say…
Quote (SEEKING @ April 13 2009,15:41) They are not one…. Shall we believe you or the scriptures?
You have not proven the Father does anything without the Son or that the Son does anything without the Father.
Quote (SEEKING @ April 13 2009,15:41) Wrong, AGAIN. I usually (usually because I was not as obedient as Jesus) did my father's will. I acted TOTALLY INDEPENDENTLY when I did so. That was a good try on your part at circular reasoning though. Seeking
Really? Then why do you need the Holy Spirit, the helper?Jesus always did the Fathers will and never independently did anything without the Father.
Who put the desire in you to obey him? Was it the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?
When you can answer that one then you will have your answer.
WJ
Hi WJ,
Can you pleased align these verses for us?
”I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE”. John 10:30
” 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. ” Jn17
Quote (Lightenup @ April 13 2009,16:42) Hi Keith,
Do you believe that the Son is equal to the Father?
Do you believe the Son always existed?Blessings,
Kathi
Hi KathiI think you know the answer to that.
The question is what do you mean by greater!
Trinitarians believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are intrinsically one in their ontology.
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and “the exact representation of his being“, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3
Jesus is all that the Father is in nature, yet while Jesus assumed the role as a man he was subjected to the Father as Phil 2 clearly brings out.
In other words my natural Father was greater than I, yet I am equal to my Father in nature.
Isa 1:18 brings this out very well in the debates thread…
“Another problem with t8’s argument (the Son has the Father’s nature but is not “co-equal” with ton theon) is that the two primary precepts manifestly contradict each other. To assert that one being confers nature to another via reproductive generation (which is implied in the quote) is to uphold equivalency in ontology. One being cannot legitimately “beget” a lesser being (i.e. a clone), as the biblical principal ‘like begets like kind’ dictates that they would be, as to their essence/nature, identical. Dogs beget dogs, human beings begets humans, God begets [fill in the space]. So the rationale is inconsistent and confusing.”
Not to mention the confusion that God begetting a god is contrary to the scriptural claim that we are to know and to serve only One God.
As it now stands “All Power and all Authority and all things are in Jesus hands”.
I do not believe that Arians understand what that means.
When you think of an infinite God with infinite Love and infinite power, pure logic says that the “infinite” could not be given to the “finite”. Yet the professed believers go out of their way to reduce the infinite to being finite. IMO
If you see Jesus who now (because of his coming in the flesh) is the “Image of the Invisible God”, if you see him as less than God, then IMO you have created a false image of God and in fact dishonor him when he said we should honor him even as we honor the Father.
Jesus said…
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and “YET HAST THOU NOT KNOWN ME, PHILIP? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; AND HOW SAYEST THOU [THEN], SHEW US THE FATHER”? John 14:9
No one has ever seen God, but “GOD THE ONE AND ONLY”, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. John 1:18
I believe John, Thomas and many others knew who he was…
And Thomas answered and said unto him, “MY LORD AND MY GOD”. John 20:28
Yes I believe that Jesus always existed yet without the name Jesus, but in fact was and is the God of the OT, YHWH, since no man had ever seen the Father, yet the Patriarchs of old said they did see God.
More on this Here…
Blessings WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2009,17:13) Hi WJ, Can you pleased align these verses for us?
”I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE”. John 10:30
” 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. ” Jn17
NHDo you notice how Jesus said “That they may be one in us”?
Are you in me? Am I in you?
Yet we know the “us” Jesus is speaking of is the Father and the Son who is in us!
Can you see the difference?
WJ
Hi WJ,
So God is not one to you.Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:God is an 'us' and no third person even gets a mention?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2009,18:18) Hi WJ,
So God is not one to you.Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:God is an 'us' and no third person even gets a mention?
Hi NHSo you don't believe Jesus is one with the Father?
WJ
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