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Quote (SEEKING @ April 09 2009,12:12) Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2009,16:13) Quote BUT…. Paul did not say that Christ would yield to the Father so that the Father could be “all in all.” He said that Christ would yield to the Father so that GOD could be “all in all.” 1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
I do believe the Father son distinctions are continued according to the texts.
1cor.15:24
1) The end comes
2) The son delivers the kindom
3) The son delivers the kindom to “God the Father”1cor15:28
1) The son will be subjected to him who put all
things in subjection to the son (God the Father)
2) God (the Father IMO) will be all in allQuote But until then CHRIST is “all in all”[/b] (Colossians 3:11). IMO the context of this verse teaches that distictions are absorbed in Christ. The second “in all” refers to the Christ in all that absorbs those distinctions. That is staying true to the intent of the context IMO.
Col 3:10-15 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.
Regardless, the Father would still be the exception –
1Co 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,”it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him
Seeking
Seeking,
You may be right about the Father and Son distinctions continuing after Christ yields the kingdom. I must think about this one. However, the text clearly implies that the Father is NOT “all in all” now.The Colossians passage is about MORE than just racial distinctions being abolished in Christ. It was also about their being renewed in Christ's image
Quote Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with His deeds, and have put on the new man who is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of the one who created him., where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised…But Christ is all in all Christ is the one who created the new man and that man is renewed in Christ's image and not the Father's. Therefore, the expression “all in all” in reference to Christ is also about being renewed in Christ's image.
Again, if the Father is “all in all” now then Paul was speaking nonsense when he said that the Father will become “all in all” (future). If the Father is “all in all” now then Colossians would say that they were being renewed in the Father's image. But it says that they were being renewed in the image of the one who created the new man. The one who created the new man is Christ (Eph. 2)
thinker
Seeking said:
Quote Throughout, Jesus continuously emphasizes his dependence on the father for ability and authority (v.19, 21, 26, 27, 30) Seeking,
Trinitarians agree that the Son always acted in union with the Father. This is because He took the form of a servantQuote Have this mind in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing ot be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking the form of a servant…. Note that it says that He was in the form of God and that “He made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant.” You claim that you took two years of Greek. Then you should know that the middle voice means that JESUS ACTED UPON HIMSELF. He acted upon Himself and and made Himself nothing and BECAME obedient.
So you err in taking Jesus' words out of context with Paul. Jesus existed in the form of God and then acted upon Himself and made Himself nothing. He acted upon Himself and took the form of a servant. Consequently He became obedient unto death.
So much for your theory that the Father took the “full” responsibility. Jesus acted upon Himself. Deal with it! What is your reply our brother?
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 10 2009,08:35) Hi TT,
So Jesus was a separate being from God?
Nick,
Paul said that Jesus existed in the form of God. We have not seen God's form. It says that He made Himself nothing and took the form of a servant. Non-trinitarians do not incorporate this fact into their Christology. They think that Christ was necessarily a servant always. Trinitarians confess that Christ was neceaasrily a servant. What they deny is that this was always true of Him. He acted upon Himself and made Himself nothing.And non-trinitarians should keep this fact in mind when they interpret Christ's words about being under the authority of the Father.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2009,11:41) Lightenup said: Quote I still believe that Christ was considered in the grave when it says abyss. Note that Jonah 2:2 speaks of Johah being in the depths of Sheol yet we know he was not technically in Sheol. These verses speak of Christ being brought up “from the dead” and in “the heart of the earth.” So, I am not convinced that Christ was considered alive in a place where the devil and his angels were cast. I think that you are reading too much into it. He was in the grave for three days and three nights as Matthew Henry says also. Hi LU,
The tomb inwhich Jesus' body layed is not the DEPTHS of sheol. The term “abussos” (or abyss) means the “DEEP”. Jesus came up from the “deep” parts of the earth.Check it out.
love ya,
thinker
Hi Thinker,
I know that it is the deep parts of the earth. I don't think that the passage is to be taken so literally but just to apply to Jesus buried within the earth. The passage says that He was brought up from the dead not brought up from amongst the living souls of the departed or from satan and his angels. For three days and three nights He was not alive IMO.Have a good one,
Kathithethinker,April wrote:Quote However, the text clearly implies that the Father is NOT “all in all” now. I do not see the “implication” but will grant it to you. I see the distinctions as always existing as you might suspect.
thinker said
Quote Christ is the one who created the new man and that man is renewed in Christ's image and not the Father's. Therefore, the expression “all in all” in reference to Christ is also about being renewed in Christ's image. Again, if the Father is “all in all” now then Paul was speaking nonsense when he said that the Father will become “all in all” (future). If the Father is “all in all” now then Colossians would say that they were being renewed in the Father's image. But it says that they were being renewed in the image of the one who created the new man. The one who created the new man is Christ (Eph. 2)
I disagree that Christ is the creator, God is IMO. I must take total exception to your statement as to what Eph.2 states regarding creating the new man –
Eph 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ–by grace you have been saved–
Eph 2:10 For we are his (Gods) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2009,13:01) So much for your theory that the Father took the “full” responsibility. Jesus acted upon Himself. Deal with it! What is your reply our brother? thinker
thinker,I believe you have read this post before. You indicated you had on Apr. 8. My reply will not change as a result of anything I have read from you thus far.
My post of Apr.8 with a response from thinker
Quote thinker Jesus is everything name the Father has attributed to him.
He is prophet, priest, king, savior, the name above all names
etc.He had the obligation to take “full responsibilty” for everything the Father directed him to do, become and fulfill. He did so willingly because of his love for the Father and us.
God the Father took “full responsibilty” to initiate a plan of salvation, and define the sons role in that plan.
There is no overlapping of responsibilities. No, God the Father did not go to the cross. The Father was not literally spit upon, etc. Neither does the son take on the role of God IMO.
Rather, the son seeks to be obedient to the Father, bring glory to the Fathers name, and will give all things back to the Father so that the Father can be ALL IN ALL.
1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
Seeking
Seeking,
Good post bro! We are making some progress. Sometimes it takes a lot of time and work to cut through all the crap.Seeking
Colossians 1:15(NIV) reads:
Quote He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
So why do people think this is speaking of the old creation when we are told over and over again that Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation?
Colossians 1:18(NIV) reads:
Quote And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
And
Romans 8:29(NIV) reads:
Quote For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
And
Revelations 1:5(NIV) reads:
Quote Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
I corrected my punctuation.
Lightenup said:
Quote Hi Thinker,
I know that it is the deep parts of the earth. I don't think that the passage is to be taken so literally but just to apply to Jesus buried within the earth. The passage says that He was brought up from the dead not brought up from amongst the living souls of the departed or from satan and his angels. For three days and three nights He was not alive IMO.Hi Kathi,
Christ indeed descended to the lower parts of the earth,
Quote Now this, “He ascended”-what does it mean that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth (Eph. 4:9) Peter said that Christ was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit inwhich He went to preach to the disobedient spirits in prison,
Quote But Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit inwhich He also preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient (1 Peter 3:18-20) It says that He was alive in the spirit INWHICH He preached to the spirits in prison. Jesus said that He would be in the heart of the earth as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish. Jonah was in the fish ALIVE as WJ has keenly observed.
Jesus said that He had the power to lay down His life and to “take it again.” How could He have had the power to “take it again” if He was “sleeping”?
thinker
Hi TT,
Many are still alive in the Spirit.
Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.Yes Kathi, Thank You–I believe Jesus was trying to get across to his disciples that as is was in the beginning when God made man and got into him (breathed into him) as his life source. This God/Man never changed.Man had his own mind to think and believe any way he chose.Man chose some incorrect beliefs which like today he thought he had done wrong. God didn't say it was wrong. He told Adam what would happen if he chose to believe in evil or an opposite to God.God is only Good. God never changed his location inside the human being. Man created lots of religious beliefs of how to get to God, how to satisfy God, pacify God etc. God still never changed location where would he go, he's everywhere!!Jesus was saying that the same way God made his abode in Jesus they would make their abode in us.We are the Church which is his body, we are the Temple made without hands, we are ruler's of our own Kingdom within.What ever we express in the Earth we experience. If we live by the sword we die by the sword.If we sow the fruits of the Spirit we will live in peace, love, joy,,meekness, kindness, gentleness etc. With Love, Tim
Thinker said:
Quote However, the text clearly implies that the Father is NOT “all in all” now. Seeking replied:
Quote I do not see the “implication” but will grant it to you. Seeking,
I don't get it. You do not see the implication that the Father is NOT “all in all” now but will grant it anyway? Bizarre to say the least!Seeking said:
Quote I see the distinctions as always existing as you might suspect. The distinctions could not have always existed because God said ,”This day I have begotten you” and, “I shall be to Him a Father and He shall be to Me a Son.”
It is my belief that the Three Persons, though truly and properly “persons” within their own right assumed distinct roles also for the sake of our salvation. Therefore, the expressions “Father” and “Son” are names that refer to the covenant of redemption. This is why I say that I must think about it more before I concede that the distinctions will always continue. After the whole plan of redemption is done then why the need for such distinctions?Seeking said:
Quote I disagree that Christ is the creator, God is IMO. But Paul said,
Quote All things were created by Him (Jesus) and FOR Him Seeking said:
Quote I must take total exception to your statement as to what Eph.2 states regarding creating the new man – Do you mean that Christ did not create the new man? Paul said:
Quote For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the emnity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances so as to create in Himself one mew man from the two, thus making peace…. (Eph. 2:14-16) It says that he “Himself” is our peace. It says that “He” tore down the wall that separated men so as to create in “Himself” one new man.
On what exegetical grounds do you take “TOTAL” exception?
thinker
Quote =thethinker,April 10 2009,09:10] Quote Thinker said: Quote However, the text clearly implies that the Father is NOT “all in all” now. Seeking replied:
Quote I do not see the “implication” but will grant it to you. Seeking,
I don't get it. You do not see the implication that the Father is NOT “all in all” now but will grant it anyway? Bizarre to say the least!Sorry I wasn't clearer. I WILL GRANT YOU YOUR OPINION THAT THE IMPLICATIONS EXIST.
Quote On what exegetical grounds do you take “TOTAL” exception? Read ther post again. I cited the scriptures.
Seeking
Quote (Tim Kraft @ April 10 2009,22:12) Yes Kathi, Thank You–I believe Jesus was trying to get across to his disciples that as is was in the beginning when God made man and got into him (breathed into him) as his life source. This God/Man never changed.Man had his own mind to think and believe any way he chose.Man chose some incorrect beliefs which like today he thought he had done wrong. God didn't say it was wrong. He told Adam what would happen if he chose to believe in evil or an opposite to God.God is only Good. God never changed his location inside the human being. Man created lots of religious beliefs of how to get to God, how to satisfy God, pacify God etc. God still never changed location where would he go, he's everywhere!!Jesus was saying that the same way God made his abode in Jesus they would make their abode in us.We are the Church which is his body, we are the Temple made without hands, we are ruler's of our own Kingdom within.What ever we express in the Earth we experience. If we live by the sword we die by the sword.If we sow the fruits of the Spirit we will live in peace, love, joy,,meekness, kindness, gentleness etc. With Love, Tim
Hi tK,
Where does scripture say God lived in Adam or any other carnal man?The breath of God is not His Spirit.
Seeking said:
Quote I disagree that Christ is the creator, God is IMO. I must take total exception to your statement as to what Eph.2 states regarding creating the new man – Eph 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ–by grace you have been saved–
Eph 2:10 For we are his (Gods) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Seeking,
You cited related Scriptures but you did not exegete the specific Scripture I gave. The Father and the Son ALWAYS act as one. Yes, the new man is create by God. That's only half the truth. Again it says,Quote For he Himself is our peace WHO has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create IN HIMSELF one new man from the two, thus making peace Christ is the “WHO” who does all the following,
1. He has made both Jew and Gentile one
2. He has broken down the wall of separation
3. He creates in Himself the new manThe Father and the Son ALWAYS act as one. Again, please exegete the specific passage I have given. While you're at it please exegete Colossians 1:17,
Quote …all things were created through Him and FOR Him (the Son) It says that all things were created FOR the Son!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 10 2009,19:20) Lightenup said: Quote Hi Thinker,
I know that it is the deep parts of the earth. I don't think that the passage is to be taken so literally but just to apply to Jesus buried within the earth. The passage says that He was brought up from the dead not brought up from amongst the living souls of the departed or from satan and his angels. For three days and three nights He was not alive IMO.Hi Kathi,
Christ indeed descended to the lower parts of the earth,
Quote Now this, “He ascended”-what does it mean that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth (Eph. 4:9) Peter said that Christ was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit inwhich He went to preach to the disobedient spirits in prison,
Quote But Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit inwhich He also preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient (1 Peter 3:18-20) It says that He was alive in the spirit INWHICH He preached to the spirits in prison. Jesus said that He would be in the heart of the earth as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish. Jonah was in the fish ALIVE as WJ has keenly observed.
Jesus said that He had the power to lay down His life and to “take it again.” How could He have had the power to “take it again” if He was “sleeping”?
thinker
Hi TTExcellent post.
Unitarians, Jws, and others for the most part do not believe that the Spirit\soul of the man continues after he leaves his flesh temple.
If they would see this then they would be able to comprehend how it is that Jesus came in the flesh without diminishing his ontological nature as God. For God is Spirit, and man is Spirit who has a soul and lives in the body.
There are many scriptures that support this. Hebrews 4:12 states that only the Word of God the sword of the spirit can discern what is Spirit and what is soul. Man is a tripart being who is created in the image of God.
The Spirit of the man is the man.
1 John 1:1-3 declares the Word\Jesus that was in the beginning with the Father is the “Eternal life”. It was not possible that Jesus Spirit die. His Spirit didn't have to die. It was the offering of his body and blood that was the sacrifice for our sins.
So the question is “what is death”. Death is the seperation of the Spirit\soul from the body.
“For as the body without the spirit is dead“faith without works is dead also. James 2:26
This is also why Jesus said…
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me “shall never die“. Believest thou this? John 11:26
We have been born again by his Spirit and our Spirit has been made alive and is now called the New man.
It is the real us.
Our regenerated Spirits shall never die because we have “eternal life”, for we have already eaten of his flesh (word) and drank of his Blood (Spirit), our bodies groan and travail to be clothed upon and made new when this corruptable must put on incorruptable.
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
Ontology is of the weak wisdom of men.Man is of flesh, dirt enlivened of the breath of God.
God is not tripartite, is not divided, but God is one.Hi WJ,
Do you think God is of three parts including of flesh?
Flesh cannot even inherit the kingdom of God.1Cor 15
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 11 2009,09:44) Hi WJ,
Do you think God is of three parts including of flesh?
Flesh cannot even inherit the kingdom of God.1Cor 15
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
NHGod is living in the flesh isnt he?
WJ
thethinker,April wrote:[/quote]
Quote Christ is the “WHO” who does all the followin You got it! Christ is the “who.” God is the what!!
Gos is the “what” of the plan of salvation. We are the “who.”Quote The Father and the Son ALWAYS act as one Not so! They act independently in accordance with their role,
and their roles are different. We already covered this though our opinions may vary.Quote Again, please exegete the specific passage I have given. While you're at it please exegete Colossians 1:17, After you exegete –
Eph 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ–by grace you have been saved
Eph 2:10 For we are his (Gods) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them
Gos is the “who” that initiates ALL. The son, in some cases, is the “who” that God selected to carry out the plan.
Quote ]…all things were created through Him and FOR Him (the Son) Ephes. 3:9 (KJV)
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus ChristYou have a foundational error of mixed roles. Again here, the Father is the “what” the son is the channel or conduit by which.. or the “who.”
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God,and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1) One God
2) One mediator
3) Christ is the mediator
4) Christ is not GodUntil you understand that, we do not have much on this matter to discuss.
As I noted elsewhere, God wrote the script and took “full responsibilty” to see to it that it was understood and carried out. We, along with Jesus, have our roles to carry out as did the prophets, Apostles, etc. Our role differ. Frequently, the differ drastically. Even Judas had a role to play. But never do our roles bleed over into God's.
Rev 13:8 YLT And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
Ephes. 3:9 (KJV)
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:Acts 15:18 (KJV)
Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.1 Peter 1:19-20 (KJV) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (ESV)
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Act 2:23-24 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up,
loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
If you will exegete these scriptures carefully and honestly, I believe one cannot help but see that God had a plan before the beginning of time. Many, including Jesus, had a part in God's plan. Still do! Jesus is a very much to be honored mediator, but he is not God.
Blessings,
Seeking
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