Proverbs 16:4 with Colossians 1:17

Participant

Hi tt,
So if Jesus differentiates himself from God
why do you follow men who amalgamate them into a trinity god?

April 4, 2009 at 11:14 pm#126649

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 05 2009,11:00)

Hi tt,
You are right in that it was in the quote.
Jesus in this scripture differentiates himself from God Whom he identifies as the Father.

He does not worship himself as he is not God and we follow his example in the vine honouring him and obeying him

Nick,
You did not answer my question. The Son did not honor Himself because He was humble. But He knew that the Father honors Him. Do you? This is not a trick question.

For the millionth time: Do you honor the Son as the Father honors Him? If not, then on what basis do you claim that the Father is your “God.”

thinker

April 4, 2009 at 11:20 pm#126650

Participant

Hi tt,

Is the Father NOT your God?
He is the God of Jesus whom we follow.

Jn20
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He said true worshipers worship the Father.

Jn4
21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

You are either calling him a liar or announcing that you are a false worshiper.

April 4, 2009 at 11:35 pm#126654

Participant

Hi tt,
Was Jesus too humble to announce he was part of a trinity god?

He did say he was the son of God but most do not believe him.

John 10:36

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

April 5, 2009 at 1:53 am#126659

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 04 2009,14:48)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2009,21:08)

Hi WJ,
God is the only saviour.
He uses His saviour son as the gate of the Way

But you say
“Since Jesus is the only one that can save a soul and reveal the Father then that would mean that he did the greater works.”

You really are getting quite muddled as you desperately try to justify this dangerous nonsense.

NH and t8

You say…

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2009,21:08)

God is the only saviour.

Then you say and t8 gives a high five too…

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2009,21:08)

He uses His saviour son as the gate of the Way

If God is the “Only Saviour” then how is Jesus a Saviour Son!

”NEITHER IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER: for there is NONE OTHER NAME under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”. Acts 4:12

Is there anywhere in scriptures that Moses or others are said to be the only name by which a man is saved?

I Didn't think so.

So if the scriptures claim that YHWH is the only Saviour and also claims Jesus is the only Saviour, then it is a contradiction or Jesus is God as the scriptures proclaim.

Now it not only seems that you reduce him to a mere man but also trying to reduce him to less than “The Saviour”.

Hi Keith,
Jesus and the Father are both our Saviour. Could the Son be our Savior without the Father establishing the whole idea of sacrifice and then sending His Son to us and then accepting the sacrifice??? Could the Father be our Savior without the Son's willingness and obedience to the death of the cross??? Neither one could be our Saviour without the work of the other. Two different works from two different beings together bring us our Saviour. They are both dependent on each other to be able to save us and they both had different roles as our Savior. IMO

God bless,
Kathi

April 5, 2009 at 4:23 am#126668

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ April 05 2009,13:53)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 04 2009,14:48)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2009,21:08)

Hi WJ,
God is the only saviour.
He uses His saviour son as the gate of the Way

But you say
“Since Jesus is the only one that can save a soul and reveal the Father then that would mean that he did the greater works.”

You really are getting quite muddled as you desperately try to justify this dangerous nonsense.

NH and t8

You say…

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2009,21:08)

God is the only saviour.

Then you say and t8 gives a high five too…

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2009,21:08)

He uses His saviour son as the gate of the Way

If God is the “Only Saviour” then how is Jesus a Saviour Son!

”NEITHER IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER: for there is NONE OTHER NAME under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”. Acts 4:12

Is there anywhere in scriptures that Moses or others are said to be the only name by which a man is saved?

I Didn't think so.

So if the scriptures claim that YHWH is the only Saviour and also claims Jesus is the only Saviour, then it is a contradiction or Jesus is God as the scriptures proclaim.

Now it not only seems that you reduce him to a mere man but also trying to reduce him to less than “The Saviour”.

God bless,
Kathi

Hi Kathi

OK, then what about these…

“I, even I, am the LORD, (YHWH) And “there is no savior besides Me“. Isa 43:11

Yet I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And “you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me“. Hsa 13:4

Jesus is not just “A” Saviour by proxy. He is “The Saviour”, for as you have pointed out it was his literal life and blood he poured out!

Yet the Hebrew scriptures declare that there is no other Saviour but YHWH!

It is the Apostles of the NT that gives Jesus the title “Saviour” with the definite article knowing the Hebrew scriptures.

Click Here for an excellent post on this.

Blessings Keith

April 5, 2009 at 4:24 am#126669

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2009,16:50)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2009,06:55)

Hi Keith,
When Jesus saw the woman in the garden after she saw the empty tomb is when He returned to the Father, then He came back to show Himself to the disciples that very day after He went to the Father. Apparently, it was an important step in the process of His resurrection from the dead, to ascend to the Father that is.

John 20:17

17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.
ASV
It was something that He told Mary to tell the disciples..He was raising His body to heaven. That was an important part of His coming back to life. A two step process.

You wrote:

Quote

Also the witness John recorded Jesus words later….

Therefore doth my Father love me, because “ I LAY DOWN MY LIFE, THAT I MIGHT TAKE IT AGAIN. NO MAN TAKETH IT FROM ME, BUT I LAY IT DOWN OF MYSELF. I HAVE POWER TO LAY IT DOWN, AND I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN ”. This commandment have I received of my Father. There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? John 10:17-20

As far as John 10:17-20, there is another way to look at that. I believe that God had given the Son a choice of laying down His life or not laying down His life (and returning to the Father) while He was here. If He had the choice to die for us or not to die for us and He could make either decision and not be disobedient to God either way, and then He chose to die anyway…well that makes Jesus a savior to us by His own choice and not because He only had that one choice. Jesus choice was proof of His love for us and not just His love for His Father. Can you see that?

God's love,
Kathi

Hi Kathi

Im sorry that is just spin in my opinion.

Clearly Jesus was speaking of his body being raised from the dead.

His point was “Destroy this Temple” and I will raise it up!

He never mentioned heaven, and niether did John in this context.

Also again Jesus said…

Therefore doth my Father love me, because “ I LAY DOWN MY LIFE, THAT I MIGHT TAKE IT AGAIN. NO MAN TAKETH IT FROM ME, BUT I LAY IT DOWN OF MYSELF. I HAVE POWER TO LAY IT DOWN, AND I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN ”. This commandment have I received of my Father. There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? John 10:17-20

He didnt stop at…”I HAVE POWER TO LAY IT DOWN,“

But he went a step further and said…

“I HAVE POWER (exousia)TO TAKE IT AGAIN“

Power – Greek 'exousia' ….

1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases

a) leave or permission

2) physical and mental power

a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises

3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)

a) universally

1) authority over mankind

b) specifically

1) the power of judicial decisions

2) of authority to manage domestic affairs

c) metonymically

1) a thing subject to authority or rule

a) jurisdiction

2) one who possesses authority

a) a ruler, a human magistrate

b) the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates

d) a sign of the husband's authority over his wife

1) the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself

e) the sign of regal authority, a crown

Right after this Jesus makes this claim…

Jesus said unto her, “I am the resurrection, and the life“: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25, 26

Jesus is saying those who believe in him will never die. What does he mean?

He means that when we are born again then we have Eternal life.

He is not talking about the natural life or our bodies which are merely “Temples” to house our Spirits/Souls.

Jesus claimed that he would be in hell (Hades) for three days and three nights like Jonah was in the belly of the fish.

The Spirit of Jesus did not die! He had power over death and hell and in fact took the keys of death and hell. Death had no power over him for he was sinless.

Clearly Jesus had the choice to take up his life again!

Jesus is the ressurection and the Life, he had power over death.

When it came time for Jesus body to rise do you think he did not have power to take it up again? Scriptures teach that he did.

Keith and Thinker,
I am not questioning whether Jesus had the power or not to give Himself life after He died…that is a difficult concept though because; how could He give Himself life if He is dead? Both the Father and Son were actively involved in the resurrection, that is the main thing. That does not mean that they are one in the same or did the same act in raising Him. I do think that there are two steps to Jesus' resurrection. From what I understand, until Jesus ascended into heaven, no one died and ascended into heaven and was returned to the Father. He was the firstborn from the dead, the first to be returned to the Father. When He told Mary to tell the disciples that, He said:

John 20:17-22

17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

Dying, then rising from the dead and then ascendind to the Father was all part of His resurrection. The raising of the body was in stages, one to a living being (the “gardener” that Mary saw), the other is the ascension to the Father which all happened on the third day. He taught the disciples that He was going to the Father and that they should rejoice. That is one reason that it was significant to tell this to Mary:

say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

Here are a few passages where He taught His disciples about Himself returning to His Father:
John 16:28

28 I came out from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go unto the Father.
ASV

John 16:5-7

5 But now I go unto him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

6 But because I have spoken these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.
ASV

John 14:28-29

28 Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

29 A
nd now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe.
ASV

Thinker-
BTW, the words “I ascend unto my Father” is written in the present tense and did not refer to the final ascension many days later.

Thanks for sending me deeper into study…
Kathi

April 5, 2009 at 4:36 am#126671

Participant

Hi Keith,
WOW, we posted those last two posts to each other within one second of the other.

Anyway…regarding these verses:
“I, even I, am the LORD, (YHWH) And “there is no savior besides Me”. Isa 43:11

Yet I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And “you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me”. Hsa 13:4

God was speaking to the Israelites as being their savior during the difficult times of the Old Testament. The context is not eternal life.

Love in Him,
Kathi

April 5, 2009 at 5:49 am#126673

Participant

Hi LU,
The ruse is to throw as much confusion in minds about scripture so that an imagined 'trump card' of

“God must be a trinity”

can be tabled

It is abuse of scripture and defence of ithe indefensible.

April 5, 2009 at 7:58 am#126675

Participant

Nick said:

Quote

Is the Father NOT your God?
He is the God of Jesus whom we follow.

Yes the Father is my God. And I back up my claim by honoring the Son,

Quote

If I honor Myself My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say he is your God (John 8:54)

Jesus told the Jews that the Father honors Him and then inferred that if they didn't honor Him then the Father was NOT their God. I have answered you clearly. I have said that the Father is my God and my confession of Christ is the proof.

You give mere lip service that the Father is your God. If the Father is your God then prove it by confessing that the Father honors the Son and that you must also do the same.

thinker

April 5, 2009 at 8:21 am#126676

Participant

Lightenup said:

Quote

Jesus and the Father are both our Saviour. Could the Son be our Savior without the Father establishing the whole idea of sacrifice and then sending His Son to us and then accepting the sacrifice??? Could the Father be our Savior without the Son's willingness and obedience to the death of the cross??? Neither one could be our Saviour without the work of the other. Two different works from two different beings together bring us our Saviour. They are both dependent on each other to be able to save us and they both had different roles as our Savior

Greetings LU,
Your Christology is much better than Seeking's and Nick's though I still would take some issue with it. The scripture says that the Father sent the Son TO BE the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14). Jesus IS Himself the Savior,

Quote

He Himself is the propitiation of our sins (1 John 2:2)

You are correct that the Father and the Son shared responsibility and had a different role in our salvation. But Christ's role was to be the propitiation for our sins. This was not the Father's role. It was the Father's wrath that was propitiated. So how could the Father also be the propitiation?

I really believe that Seeking's and Nick's views put them at risk of damnation NOT because they are non-trinitarian, but because they incipiently deny that Christ is their Savior. I say that they “incipiently” deny because I am still trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. They deny Christ is their Savior with their nonsense that the Father took “full” responsibility for our salvation.

Seeking asked me a few days ago if one must be a trinitarian in order to be saved. I would answer no. But that would depend upon how far one would go in his conclusions. If a man's non-trinitarianism leads him to deny that Jesus is the Savior then he denies the basic Gospel.

Quote

For unto you is born this day in the city a Savior which is Christ the Lord (Luke 2:11)

thinker

April 5, 2009 at 8:37 am#126679

Participant

Hi tt,
You say you honour Jesus but you espouse teachings about God never found in his mouth.
How can this be?

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 14:24
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

April 5, 2009 at 8:40 am#126681

Participant

Lightenup said:

Quote

Kathi,
You said that it is a difficult concept that Christ could participate in His resurrection seeing that He was dead. But Christ did not go down to hades to “sleep” as most other men did. He went down to hades ALIVE and this is the difference. There were a few exceptions where saints went down to hades alive.

LU said:

Quote

I do think that there are two steps to Jesus' resurrection. From what I understand, until Jesus ascended into heaven, no one died and ascended into heaven and was returned to the Father. He was the firstborn from the dead, the first to be returned to the Father. When He told Mary to tell the disciples that, He said:

John 20:17-22

17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

Dying, then rising from the dead and then ascendind to the Father was all part of His resurrection.

Thinker-
BTW, the words “I ascend unto my Father” is written in the present tense and did not refer to the final ascension many days later.

Kathi,
Jesus was talking about that “step” which would occur in three days,

Quote

Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up….He spoke of the temple of His body.

Divide the resurrection into “steps” if you will. But the “step” Jesus spoke about was that which occurred in three days. Therefore, He was NOT referring to the second “step” which you say is the ascension.

LU said:

Quote

Thanks for sending me deeper into study…

The name “Seeking” is most appropriate for you.

your friend,
thinker

April 5, 2009 at 8:42 am#126682

Participant

Hi tt,
If we are not required to be trinirtarian to be saved and it is an optional extra is it wise to hold it at all as it insults our God and His son and diminishes the truth of scripture in favour of the ideas of men?

April 5, 2009 at 8:48 am#126683

Participant

Hi TT,
Jesus died.
He really did die.

Mt27
50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Jas2
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Dead in the flesh he was yet alive as are Isaac and Jacob in the abiding Spirit of God

1Peter3
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

April 5, 2009 at 9:25 am#126684

http://www.bibletoday.com/booklet….adually

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 05 2009,20:48)

Hi TT,
Jesus died.
He really did die.

Mt27
50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Jas2
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Dead in the flesh he was yet alive as are Isaac and Jacob in the abiding Spirit of God

1Peter3
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Nick,
Jesus went to hades alive. To go to hades in itself was death even if one went there alive. Those who went to hades alive were the exception. If Jesus went to hades to “sleep” as most other men then how could He have raised up His body?

I have not denied that His body died. I have affirmed that His body died in that I have said that Jesus raised it up. Do you pay attention at all?

thinker

April 5, 2009 at 9:44 am#126686

kerwin

Participant

The Thinker wrote:

Quote

how could He have raised up His body?

The only scriptures I remember say God raised Jesus from the dead. I do not remember any that say he raised himself from the dead. Perhaps you can please refresh my memory. Thank you.

April 5, 2009 at 2:01 pm#126694

SEEKING

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ April 05 2009,01:21)

Joh 3:16-18 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God

FATHER TAKES “FULL RESPONSIBILTY” AND FULLY
PROVIDES HIS SON. THE FATHER DOES THIS OF HIS OWN ACCORD.

Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

THE SON,THROUGH OBEDIENCE PROVIDES “FULL PROPITIATION” (NOTE WHO PUT FORWARD THE SON AS A
PROPITIATION – THE FATHER

I, and from what I read can speak for Nick, have never denied Jesus is our propitiation and Savior. A “thinker” concocted inference to the contrary is as ludicrous as his other “inferences.” What we have denied is the nonsense that a trinitarian concept is biblical. It is an addition to what God, Christ, and the Apostles believed.

The Trinity Emerges Gradually
“The time will come when men will not put up with sound
doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their
itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” (2 Tim. 4:3, 4, NIV)

After the Church lost the pristine vision which it held in the beginning, these last two creeds were formed. The Athanasian, or Trinitarian Creed, became the largest and most confusing creed of all. It became necessary for salvation to believe this creed—making this a threatening theological statement. Please notice the unitarian concept of God was a statement of belief without threatening overtones. Notice how the Creed becomes more foggy and “incomprehensible” as it endeavors to incorporate Trinity concepts. Additionally, as it swells to more than a statement of belief, it then threatens any not accepting this foggy concept with perishing “everlastingly.”
When Jesus rendered his final report to his Father, it only required three words—”It is finished” (John 19:30). Nothing more needed to be said. Notice, however, when the one-talented, unfaithful servant rendered his report, it required 43 words, and he was just as much a failure after his explanation (Matt. 25:24, 25). The Unitarian Creed required only 115 words to make itself known; the Nicene Creed required 230 (twice as many words to make God and Christ one); and the Athanasian Creed required 702 words to explain the “incomprehensible” Trinity. If the number of words used proved the case, the latter is clearly the winner. But it is not by much speaking that we shall be heard.
The Illustrated Bible Dictionary states: “The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the fourth century. . . . Although Scripture does not give us a formulated doctrine of the Trinity, it contains all the elements out of which theology has constructed the doctrine.”1 That is partially correct. Theology indeed is responsible for constructing the doctrine. But we firmly believe that the “elements” of Scripture alluded to here were never intended to provide a framework for such a dogma.

Blessings,

Seeking

April 5, 2009 at 4:02 pm#126701

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ April 05 2009,21:25)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 05 2009,20:48)

Hi TT,
Jesus died.
He really did die.

Mt27
50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Jas2
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Dead in the flesh he was yet alive as are Isaac and Jacob in the abiding Spirit of God

1Peter3
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

I have not denied that His body died. I have affirmed that His body died in that I have said that Jesus raised it up. Do you pay attention at all?

thinker

Hi tt,
He died.
He went to Hades.
The gates of Hades could not hold him.
Neither should they hold the members of the church.

Mt16

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

April 5, 2009 at 9:01 pm#126717