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Quote (Stu @ Oct. 03 2010,14:07) Firstly we are voracious pattern-seekers to the point where we will imagine patterns that are not really there. Stuart
Hi Stuart,Is this now a confession to the false pattern of Darwinian evilution?
Quote (princess of the king @ Oct. 03 2010,13:31) Then why so many people confess that god/jesus saved them, what psycological meaning does this have. Why have so many people of the world turned to christianity?
Fair questions, don't you think.
Indeed they are fair questions. If we use our pattern-seeking brains now, and look for a pattern, it is overwhelmingly true that people adopt the religion of their society, or of the family into which they are born. You would almost certainly not be christian if you had been born in India to Indian parents, or in Iran to Iranian parents.Another important factor is that people want to be seen to be mainstream, not too different from the “norm”. For example a person who intends to vote in an election but has not done the homework on the policies of each candidate will ask around and go with the way other people are voting. If everyone you know goes to a particular denomination of church I imagine the same effect works on many.
This newspaper article tells you a lot about this effect, I think.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuf….-survey
Atheists know significantly more about religious beliefs in general than believers do, and that is probably because they started out with a cultural backdrop of a religion, or even active involvement in one, and have really sat down and thought about what others believe and why, and have gained a lot of knowledge in the process. Religious believers might just have gone along with the mainstream and perhaps have not educated themselves to the same degree. I would say that is less likely to apply to people posting here.
Then, look at the details of what christianity demands of its adherents. Not only does it ask you to accept the existence of an invisible and inaudible god, but it insists you accept really absurd things like virgin birth and walking again after death. I think this is one reason for christianity's popular success. Once you have made the emotional investment in believing things that really are silly, and you believe them sincerely, then there is some immunity built up against things said by skeptics or apostates. Read the writings of Saul of Tarsus for more of this immunity: as a christian you are told to expect ridicule. That is designed to get you on-side with those who are suffering this ridicule with you; strength in adversity and all that kind of thing. What is never considered of course is whether those besmirching christianity might have a point!
I followed the Atkins diet for a while and I think it works in a very similar way. After you have read the evangelical book you begin to look at all carbohydrates as evil, which of course is silly, but you will still argue with people who try to tell you they are not. The Atkins diet is not quite like christianity, there is some science that supports it whereas those core beliefs of christianity have no scientific support at all, but the effect on the believer is similar. You are drawn into an absolute view and take it upon yourself to make it even more extreme than Atkins himself (or Jesus?) would have recommended.
Interesting questions, eh!
Stuart
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 03 2010,14:14) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 03 2010,14:07) Firstly we are voracious pattern-seekers to the point where we will imagine patterns that are not really there. Stuart
Hi Stuart,Is this now a confession to the false pattern of Darwinian evilution?
No, because the patterns can be shown to exist through the scientific method, they are not just imagined voices in the head or coincidences of meeting.Stuart
I have learned quite a bit from Stu.
To be a nerd or geek is a sought after position
in this technological age.Just sayin'
Tim
Quote Here is a question for you: which do you think is greater, your chance of being killed in a plane crash or your chance of winning the big prize in a lottery? Stuart, you know I do not gamble, so it would increase my odds of being killed in a plane crash, which in turn decreases highly, due to I am not a frequent flyer.
I must say you hurt my feelings, for I wonder if you retain our conversations, or have you come to the point where your brain just switches to auto pilot in regards to questions asked.
Quote Include faith healing Alas, dear friend faith healing works. It is very well documented, however you want to note it in the science handbook, it works, have seen it my self, and experienced the same.
So when did the pattern of this gene come into effect regarding gods, it is well documented that gods have been around since the beginning, so for the pattern to take effect it must be part of our creation.
I understand critical thinking, once again dear friend, you are preaching to the choir.
I would disagree in patterns for finding food, being from a family of hunters, the pattern is ruled by the animal you seek, the pattern is ruled by where the crop grows the best, we are just capable of figuring it out.
Ha ha, Tim, it wasn't a compliment…
If you wanna learn Science I can do that to. But all the time i do not deny Scripture, in fact embrace it above Science.
What Stu is doing is denying the Spiritual. He has locked himself in a cage and fears stepping out.
His exposition on religious belief is correct for one who wants to live a life without care, being forcefed reasons for being in the cage and having all things fed to them in safety.
However, the reality is that we are above base animal instincts.Science corectly tells us the 'How' of what we see, and in that I agree.
Science cannot tell us the 'Why' because that requires the revelation of a greater mind than our own, a God, to wit.Science staunchly denies a creator so that it can try to claim the glory of the creation…but, while locked in the cage, it cannot obtain the material it would require…and if it did, it would not be able to deny it is Spiritual. So, they remain in their cage and squawk and prod and peck and wallow and spin at whatever is nearby, analyse their surrounding, that is, the earth and the planets and the universe and all things seen and unseen, not realising that all they are looking at is when they can percieve in the common dimensions, and that there are many other dimensions above and outside and within those common dimensions, and mankind in the flesh is excluded from them until they obtain the 'new spirit'.
Even so, can Science construct a multidimensional structure? Yes it can.
How?
Within a Computer System. Yes, within our own 'Kingdom', the kingdom of Man.
Within that KoM we could be anywhere, everywhere, at anytime, at all times, we would be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, because we set the rules, we desceminate who has what powers, who can do what and who cannot do what and when and how.
Within this KoM, we create Avatars, make them in our image, yes, the Image of Man and they will rule ver the wierd and wonderful animated creatures we design in an environment that compliments their bits and byte bodies, bodies built from the code of the machine world, the elements, the silicon 'dust' of our KoM. But those avatars need a purpose, hey, give them autonomy to develop their silicon world, to be like 'us', hey, what am i saying…then the avatars will deny their creators: ''Will the pot say to the potter, 'who made me?' Will the cup say 'I made myself for my own use'''. Ha, for what use is that pot, for what use is that cup, except for the use of he who fashioned it.So, if, like the avatars, we deny our creator, the glory, wisdom, forethought, intelligence, skill and ability of that creator, what then are we to believe? Like the cup, that we made ourselves??
Tim, believe the Truth. Science has it's place and is not wrong in it's discoveries, and ONLY Discoveries is what it does, much like the avatars will discovery how bits and bytes work and how everthing is sustained by ElectroEnergy forces and that they are, in reality, locked in an extruded two dimension world, and what if they could ..hey, i said it all, Fractal.
Quote Atheists know significantly more about religious beliefs in general than believers do, and that is probably because they started out with a cultural backdrop of a religion, or even active involvement in one, and have really sat down and thought about what others believe and why, and have gained a lot of knowledge in the process. Religious believers might just have gone along with the mainstream and perhaps have not educated themselves to the same degree. I would say that is less likely to apply to people posting here. I do hope ones see this, for it is the first compliment you have given the board, and answers the question 'why does Stuart post here'.
Ah, the self help books (re: Atkins) there are so many on the market at this time, it seems that ones cannot figure it out themselves. I find this to be part of 'dumming down' society. This in itself is another suject.
However, I do find that you made no mention of the afterlife. Even though many beliefs/rituals/traditions of religion are founded. the afterlife is a common among all.
Yes, Princess, Stuart is offering us this opening to himself so we can help him.
He is suffering the delusion and sees the way out but cannot reach for it on his own.Princess, it is you he is reaching to, or you reaching to him. Go to him, he needs you … but be gentle, he bruises easily!
PoftheK
Quote Stuart, you know I do not gamble, so it would increase my odds of being killed in a plane crash, which in turn decreases highly, due to I am not a frequent flyer.
I am the same, so for both of us safety could come down to which airline we chose to fly.Quote I must say you hurt my feelings, for I wonder if you retain our conversations, or have you come to the point where your brain just switches to auto pilot in regards to questions asked.
You asked good questions, and I gave you what I thought were honest answers. Did you expect me not to be honest? You have the right to be offended if you want. I would have thought ignoring your questions or being dishonest would have been more likely to offend.Quote Alas, dear friend faith healing works. It is very well documented, however you want to note it in the science handbook, it works, have seen it my self, and experienced the same.
There have been very many studies done on this subject, some indicating small positive results and others negative results. When metastudies are done (comparing the results from all the smaller studies) you get lot of statistical data, and it all says one thing: faith healing has no effect above placebo. Anecdotes don’t cut it I’m afraid. If you want to know if a medicine works you have to do a proper multi-stage double blind trial. That is what you expect as a consumer of medicines. When you apply that same method to faith healing the results are that it has no effect whatever. A large recent study of the effect of prayer had one result of significance: if you are recovering from heart surgery then you are slightly more likely to die from complications if you know that people are praying for you.Quote So when did the pattern of this gene come into effect regarding gods, it is well documented that gods have been around since the beginning, so for the pattern to take effect it must be part of our creation.
Just because something is “well documented” doesn’t necessarily mean that it is true. The amount of “documenting” I have done here would mean that there are no gods, if that is how it works! But your question is about god genes, and I think the bottom line is that we still don’t know very much. As I wrote earlier, separated twins tell us a lot about how much influence genes have compared to environment, and it has been consistently found that twins have the same tendency to religious devotion regardless of different upbringing.Quote I would disagree in patterns for finding food, being from a family of hunters, the pattern is ruled by the animal you seek, the pattern is ruled by where the crop grows the best, we are just capable of figuring it out.
True, but in all that you are using your pattern-seeking brain. You probably already know what land to try growing crops on because people before you have determined those patterns. Our ancestors realised there was a pattern in the time of day that animals would go to a drink at a watering hole. I use exactly the same pattern-seeking ability myself just walking through the aisles of the supermarket. To find my preferred foods faster I already have a mental image of what packaging I am looking for, and just as my human brain recognises faces with high accuracy, so it also recognises food packaging. That also explains why marketers are obsessed with design and branding. They are appealing to the human pattern-seeking instinct to retain market share.Quote I do hope ones see this, for it is the first compliment you have given the board, and answers the question 'why does Stuart post here'.
I complimented your questions, remember! Not the first time, I promise you!Quote Ah, the self help books (re: Atkins) there are so many on the market at this time, it seems that ones cannot figure it out themselves. I find this to be part of 'dumming down' society. This in itself is another suject.
I’m not convinced that the Atkins diet qualifies as “self-help” exactly. Atkins explained exactly why his diet achieved success, and others are able to explain why it sometimes fails. That is all based in science.The Judeo-christian scriptures are not “self-help” either, they are more politics by self-flagellation!
Quote However, I do find that you made no mention of the afterlife. Even though many beliefs/rituals/traditions of religion are founded. the afterlife is a common among all.
Do you think this might be to do with ego? I would guess that ego has been a really important adaptation for the success of our species, and that religion has become a means for balancing ego so we can work together in groups. That does not mean the gods of the religion are real, because there have been religions without gods. The idea that your death is the end of you, and notwithstanding the possibility of living on in others’ memories, it is the end of your ability to experience things and influence the world is inherently a difficult one for a member of a species that has experienced and achieved so much. The afterlife is an invention that helps people cope with that idea.I think it is bound up also with the obsession some have with the idea of justice: for most of human history, and in many parts of the world still, life is really tough and often unfair. An afterlife in which the bad have been punished and the good rewarded seems right, doesn’t it. So for many, if the afterlife doesn’t exist, perhaps it should, and so perhaps it needs to be invented and believed in for its calming effect. I am fortunate that I can’t imagine what it would be like to live in so desperate a circumstance that I was forced to make up an afterlife just to get me through the one life I know I really have.
More good questions!
Stuart
JustAskin
Sorry Tim for butting in…
Quote What Stu is doing is denying the Spiritual. He has locked himself in a cage and fears stepping out.
I define “spiritual” as the appreciation of ones own place in the universe. I challenge you to justify that you are more “spiritual” than I am, because I have not closed my mind to the possibilities, and have tried to assess the universe and my place in it as things appear to be, not as ignorant ancient people have insisted they are despite the evidence.Perhaps you define “spiritual” differently. In that case what demonstrable extra value does your definition have that mine does not? Is faith a virtue? Why?
Quote His exposition on religious belief is correct for one who wants to live a life without care, being forcefed reasons for being in the cage and having all things fed to them in safety. However, the reality is that we are above base animal instincts.
Can you justify the distinction between “base animal instincts” and “above”? It is pretty clear that god belief is a “base animal instinct” for our species.Quote Science corectly tells us the 'How' of what we see, and in that I agree. Science cannot tell us the 'Why' because that requires the revelation of a greater mind than our own, a God, to wit.
I even suggested some “why questions” for you to ask, but you actually don’t have a valid “why” question, actually you are only interested in maintaining mystery because that is the only mechanism of control religious dogmas can maintain over believers, and you see yourself to some degree as a keeper of that flame, or some kind of leader in it.Mystery is wonderful because it presents challenges for us to feed to our challenge-hungry brains, but for many god believers human success at demystification has been corrosive to religious dogma and therefore must be opposed. I think you would only like the science that has confirmed there is mystery. That is a recipe for believing in gods of the gaps, which are all in constant and imminent danger of death.
Quote Science staunchly denies a creator so that it can try to claim the glory of the creation…but, while locked in the cage, it cannot obtain the material it would require…and if it did, it would not be able to deny it is Spiritual.
You’re doing all the talking there. Science says nothing about things that do not show themselves in the empirical world. How is it that your god, supposedly the creator of everything, has not left one single unambiguous sign of its work? The “creator” could just as validly be any god described by any human, or no creator at all.What can be done is to compare the god of the Judeo-christian scriptures with the evidence we find in the universe. The two do not match. If there is a creator then it is not the one described in your holy book. What we would be looking for is some brilliant biochemist that is a third-rate engineer with a malicious streak and a particular obsession with beetles.
Actually, I suppose your god does have the malicious streak…
Quote Tim, believe the Truth. Science has it's place and is not wrong in it's discoveries, and ONLY Discoveries is what it does, much like the avatars will discovery how bits and bytes work and how everthing is sustained by ElectroEnergy forces and that they are, in reality, locked in an extruded two dimension world, and what if they could ..hey, i said it all, Fractal.
Have you assigned yourself to the job of converting Tim? From what to what do you expect to convert him?? He will be no pushover, I can promise you.Stuart
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 04 2010,00:22) Yes, Princess, Stuart is offering us this opening to himself so we can help him.
He is suffering the delusion and sees the way out but cannot reach for it on his own.Princess, it is you he is reaching to, or you reaching to him. Go to him, he needs you … but be gentle, he bruises easily!
Are you ready to be appraised on how well the “convert Stu” project is going, or do you need more time?Stuart
Stu,
Let it be known that i don't even read your posts now.
I finished with you long ago.
You are too deep…i mean, in the hole you have dug yourself.See, i leave you with Princess.
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 04 2010,10:36) Stu, Let it be known that i don't even read your posts now.
I finished with you long ago.
You are too deep…i mean, in the hole you have dug yourself.See, i leave you with Princess.
OK, bye then.Stuart
Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 03 2010,21:27) I have learned quite a bit from Stu.
To be a nerd or geek is a sought after position
in this technological age.Just sayin'
Tim
Hi Tim,I learned from Stu too: he taught me what ‘a platitude’ is.
Because everything came form nonliving primordial stew,
Darwinian evolutionary theory must therefore be true. (Jer.2:27)But what is the REAL TRUTH…
John 1:3-4 All things were made by him(God); and
without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him(God) was life; and the life was the light of men.Light is JEHOVAH=117
(117)יהוה האלהים = is the light(117) = God Spirit(117)
(Click Here)John 3:19-20 this is the condemnation, [that light is JEHOVAH]
come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light,
because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth
the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (Stu @ Oct. 04 2010,09:46) PoftheK The Judeo-christian scriptures are not “self-help” either, they are more politics by self-flagellation!
Stuart
Hi Stuart,The Bible is not (according to Stuart) a book of self help? The Bible is a book of tactics…
Matt.10:16 …be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
How does one become as slick as a serpent and as harmless as a dove? By reading The Bible!
Your self-flagellation comes from believing in Darwinian evolution!
Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (Stu @ Oct. 04 2010,09:46) PoftheK Do you think this might be to do with ego? I would guess that ego has been a really important adaptation for the success of our species…
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Wrong guess!
The ego is the thing that MUST be put to death to gain eternal life!
Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it;
[and whosoever shall lose his ego shall preserve his life].Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (Stu @ Oct. 04 2010,10:12) JustAskin
What can be done is to compare the god of the Judeo-christian scriptures with the evidence we find in the universe. The two do not match. If there is a creator then it is not the one described in your holy book.Stuart
Hi Stuart,I have already proved to you that they do,
you have closed your mind to the evidence!Quote I challenge you to justify that you are more “spiritual” than I am, because I have not closed my mind to the possibilities, and have tried to assess the universe and my place in it as things appear to be, not as ignorant ancient people have insisted they are despite the evidence. Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 03 2010,21:27) I have learned quite a bit from Stu.
To be a nerd or geek is a sought after position
in this technological age.Just sayin'
Tim
Are you saying he is a nerd or geek?He doesn't come across that way, although there an unintelligent one might suffice.
Generally speaking, geek and nerd have an intelligence quality to them.
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