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Quote (Stu @ Sep. 27 2010,16:17)
Neither you nor anyone has grasped the point, apparently. Why does scripture not contain anything that could not have been known by them, but was instead uniquely revealed by an all-knowing god?Stuart
Hi Stuart,3) Astronomy: The Earth is round and that the Universe is ever expanding…
Isaiah 40:22 …the circle of the earth, and …that stretcheth out
the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Job 26:7 He …hangeth the earth upon nothing. (Gravitational forces hold it's position)You could have said this is not specific enough, but instead you said…
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 27 2010,10:24) 3. This one is just dishonest. It is you saying that the universe is expanding based on a 20th Century understanding, not scripture. Show me the verse that says “the universe is expanding”! There isn't one! Isaiah says the earth is a circle, but it isn't. Stuart
A sphere is not round; clearly it is Stuart!
Waiting for round 2.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd
Quote So, in all three cases, you see the information is correct!
I didn't ask you for “correct information”, that wasn't the challenge.Quote Documentation that has now been around 3,000 years.
What you offer is nothing more than vain babblings,
illustrating that Stuart has a deep hatred for God!
There's no god to hate, remember Ed. It is not me who is babbling vainly.Quote Round #2…
You pick the ones that you say are the reverse,
then “we will have something further to discuss”?
Without Posting any, your words are empty ones!
What?Quote 3) Astronomy: The Earth is round and that the Universe is ever expanding…
Isaiah 40:22 …the circle of the earth, and …that stretcheth out
the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Job 26:7 He …hangeth the earth upon nothing. (Gravitational forces hold it's position)You could have said this is not specific enough, but instead you said…
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 27 2010,10:24)
3. This one is just dishonest. It is you saying that the universe is expanding based on a 20th Century understanding, not scripture. Show me the verse that says “the universe is expanding”! There isn't one! Isaiah says the earth is a circle, but it isn't.Stuart
You still have not shown me where scripture says the universe is expanding. Where are those words?Quote A sphere is not round; clearly it is Stuart!
But clearly, Ed, a sphere is not a circle. As with your blue marbles, you are doing the choosing, then showing me what an amazing coincidence it is! That's not honest.
If the translation was unquestionably to the word “sphere” then that would be surprising because the concept of a spherical earth was not developed by the Greeks for at least another hundred years after the writing of Isaiah. But the writer of Isaiah didn't write sphere, so there is no surprise. Most ancient cultures had a flat disc or inverted bowl model for the shape of the earth, which is exactly what you might take from the word “circle”. Isaiah 11:12 and Revelation 7:1 say the earth has four corners. Job 38:13 and Jeremiah 16:19 say it has ends. Daniel 4:11 says you can see the same tree from the ends (the earth must be flat then). Matthew 4:8 says you can see all the kingdoms of the earth (including the ancient Kingdom of Tonga) from a high mountain in the Middle East. You can't do that unless the earth is flat. What was that about Round 1 again? Where is your surprising fact that “must have been” divinely revealed and could not reasonably have been discovered by simple human observation?Stuart
Stu,Sep. wrote:Ed
Quote 3) Astronomy: The Earth is round and that the Universe is ever expanding…
Isaiah 40:22 …the circle of the earth, and …that stretcheth out
the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Job 26:7 He …hangeth the earth upon nothing. (Gravitational forces hold it's position)You still have not shown me where scripture says the universe is expanding. Where are those words?
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Here are Webster's definitions for the words used in the verse…
heavens: the expanse of space, celestial
stretch: to extend in length, to enlarge, to extend or expand,
to amplify or enlarge beyond natural or proper limits, to fulfill
a larger function, to become extended without breaking.spread: to open or expand over a larger area, to extend the range,
to become dispersed, to grow in length or breadth, expand, to move apart.Seems to me Isaiah 40:22 is pretty conclusive!
Are you going to claim you are blind to this as well?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Stu @ Sep. 28 2010,10:15) Ed Quote 3) Astronomy: The Earth is round and that the Universe is ever expanding…
Isaiah 40:22 …the circle of the earth, and …that stretcheth out
the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Job 26:7 He …hangeth the earth upon nothing. (Gravitational forces hold it's position)
You still have not shown me where scripture says the universe is expanding. Where are those words?Stuart
Hi Stuart,Here are Websters definitions to the words used in Isaiah 40:22.
eth: suffix -used to form the archaic third person singular present in verbs <doeth>
stretch: to extend in length, to extend or expand, to enlarge,
to become extended in length or breadth or both,
to extend over a continuous period.Heavens: the expanse of space, celestial.
spread: to open or expand over a large area, to stretch out: extend,
to distribute over an area, to become dispersed, the act or process of spreading.Are you going to claim you are blind to these FACTS,
like the way you claim you are blind to God's existence?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd
If you want to be pedantic, it says these heavens are like a curtain which is spread in the way you would a tent, to live in. How does that even imply that the universe is expanding?
This is tryhard nonsense Ed. If it had been shown that the universe was not expanding, you would be arguing that it says that the curtain was spread out like a tent, which forms a fixed shape like a non-expanding universe.
As I said earlier, you suffer the same selective interpretation here as you do with your numerology. You see a pattern because you ignore the data that shows the effect is random: you are doing the choosing of what to interpret.
You would not accept medicine from a doctor that had been tested in that manner, ignoring all the people who got sick from it and just reporting the ones that were cured by it.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 28 2010,10:15) Ed, Quote A sphere is not round; clearly it is Stuart!
But clearly, Ed, a sphere is not a circle. As with your blue marbles, you are doing the choosing, then showing me what an amazing coincidence it is! That's not honest.
If the translation was unquestionably to the word “sphere” then that would be surprising because the concept of a spherical earth was not developed by the Greeks for at least another hundred years after the writing of Isaiah. But the writer of Isaiah didn't write sphere, so there is no surprise. Most ancient cultures had a flat disc or inverted bowl model for the shape of the earth, which is exactly what you might take from the word “circle”. Isaiah 11:12 and Revelation 7:1 say the earth has four corners. Job 38:13 and Jeremiah 16:19 say it has ends. Daniel 4:11 says you can see the same tree from the ends (the earth must be flat then). Matthew 4:8 says you can see all the kingdoms of the earth (including the ancient Kingdom of Tonga) from a high mountain in the Middle East. You can't do that unless the earth is flat. What was that about Round 1 again? Where is your surprising fact that “must have been” divinely revealed and could not reasonably have been discovered by simple human observation?Stuart
Hi Stuart,I'm glad you agree with me that a sphere is round!
Circle and round (in essence) carry the same meaning here.Here is Webster's definitions of both…
circle: something in the form of a circle, a circle formed on the surface of a sphere.
round: havivg every part of the surface equidistant from the center,
something (as a circle, globe, or ring) that is round.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Stu @ Sep. 28 2010,13:07) Ed 1) If you want to be pedantic, it says these heavens are like a curtain which is spread in the way you would a tent, to live in. How does that even imply that the universe is expanding?
2) This is tryhard nonsense Ed. If it had been shown that the universe was not expanding, you would be arguing that it says that the curtain was spread out like a tent, which forms a fixed shape like a non-expanding universe.
3) As I said earlier, you suffer the same selective interpretation here as you do with your numerology. You see a pattern because you ignore the data that shows the effect is random: you are doing the choosing of what to interpret.
4) You would not accept medicine from a doctor that had been tested in that manner, ignoring all the people who got sick from it and just reporting the ones that were cured by it.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,1) The definitions of the words portray this meaning.
Re-read the definitions I gave you, they back up my words!2) Are you trying to insinuate my God could get it wrong?
3) Your opinion is based on your perception, not on the facts!
4) Irrelevant to the topics of our discussion.
Ed
I stand by what I wrote and I don't see how you have put a dent in any of it. Were I to ask you to draw a circle for me, are you telling me you would draw a sphere?
Furthermore, you are litigating a highly marginal point. If Pythagoras was to begin describing the planets as spheres within a century of the writing of Isaiah I'm not sure if I should be really be considered that surprising. Anyway, it doesn't say sphere, and it does say circle, which is exactly how the ancients generally pictured the earth, and that view is supported by all those other verses I quoted for you. So this time you are not even choosing which bits of my reply to answer, you are just clinging desperately to straws.
When does Round 1 begin? Do you have anything surprising?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 28 2010,17:39) Ed I stand by what I wrote and I don't see how you have put a dent in any of it. Were I to ask you to draw a circle for me, are you telling me you would draw a sphere?
Furthermore, you are litigating a highly marginal point. If Pythagoras was to begin describing the planets as spheres within a century of the writing of Isaiah I'm not sure if I should be really be considered that surprising. Anyway, it doesn't say sphere, and it does say circle, which is exactly how the ancients generally pictured the earth, and that view is supported by all those other verses I quoted for you. So this time you are not even choosing which bits of my reply to answer, you are just clinging desperately to straws.
When does Round 1 begin? Do you have anything surprising?
Stuart
Hi Stuart,You draw a sphere and a circle in exactly the same manner,
all it takes is some shading to illustrate the difference in them.Are you now trying to call a circle a pancake, rather than a sphere?
You are trying to nitpick over which words are correct and which are not.Should I make a Poll, so you can see what a panel of our peers would vote?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgYou are going to start a poll that asks whether people would draw a sphere if asked to draw a circle?
This definition from Wikipedia is as good as any:
A circle is a simple shape of Euclidean geometry consisting of those points in a plane which are equidistant from a given point called the centre.Note the use of the word plane there. It would be irrelevant what people voted for in a poll, the definition of circle does not include sphere.
Let me know when you have found a fact in scripture that could not reasonably have been already known by those contemporary with its writing. Perhaps you could find a fact that is not contradicted by other scriptures.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,
No the poll would ask if I sufficiently met the conditions of your challenge here. <–Third Post
A sphere is drawn exactly the same way a circle is drawn; get over it, Stuart!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgBut the only person who can judge the challenge is me Ed, because it is my surprise you have been challenged to provoke. I've told you the kind of thing that would surprise me, my example being that if Judeo-christian scriptures said that disease can be caused by things too small to be seen I would be very surprised. It doesn't say that, and it doesn't say anything that wasn't reasonably something that could have been observed by humans.
It doesn't say the “universe is expanding”, it doesn't say the earth is a sphere and it DOES imply much more clearly that the earth is flat, which is what the ancients actually thought up until Pythagoras, only 100 years after Isaiah.
Your argument that a sphere is a circle is not only wrong, but it is also dishonest because once again you are just trying to interpret Bronze Age writing in terms of your modern understanding.
Is a square a cube, Ed?
Stuart
Hi Stuart,
It would be best if you paid attention to what I actually said.
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 28 2010,17:39) Ed, Were I to ask you to draw a circle for me, are you telling me you would draw a sphere?
Stuart
A sphere and a circle are drawn in exactly the same manner,
the only difference is that shading is added for the sphere.You insinuate (to discount God's word) that a circle can
be (in essence) a pancake shape instead of spherical.To draw a pancake you need to draw two circles slightly
skewed with straight lines connecting to the two circles.To draw a sphere all that is needed is to draw a circle.
Nice try but, no dice my friend, you'll have to do better!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Stuart,
Isaiah 40:22, This is metaphorical speech to illustrate
God is in control over the affairs on planet Earth.Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,
and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers…For you to imply this circle is flat rather that spherical is absurd!
For you to do so requires some mental gymnastics…
1) First you have to try to convince us all that he meant a pancake shape instead.
2) Then you have to stand this pancake shape up on it's side to match the textual meaning.You just lost round 2!
Care to go again for round #3?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Stu @ Sep. 30 2010,09:19) It doesn't say the “universe is expanding”… Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 28 2010,10:15) Ed Quote 3) Astronomy: The Earth is round and that the Universe is ever expanding…
Isaiah 40:22 …the circle of the earth, and …that stretcheth out
the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Job 26:7 He …hangeth the earth upon nothing. (Gravitational forces hold it's position)
You still have not shown me where scripture says the universe is expanding. Where are those words?Stuart
Hi Stuart,Here are Websters definitions to the words used in Isaiah 40:22.
eth: suffix -used to form the archaic third person singular present in verbs <doeth>
stretch: to extend in length, to extend or expand, to enlarge,
to become extended in length or breadth or both,
to extend over a continuous period.Heavens: the expanse of space, celestial.
spread: to open or expand over a large area, to stretch out: extend,
to distribute over an area, to become dispersed, the act or process of spreading.Are you going to claim you are blind to these FACTS,
like the way you claim you are blind to God's existence?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHey, Dawkins was on UK tv again – telling us how the ENORMOUSLY complexed eye (Visual) system 'Came about by sheer chance'.
Ok, there was truth in elements of what he says. It is the denial of the creator, the designer, the purposer – that is his real crime.
Tell us Prof Dawkins, if the eye only took a few millions years to evolve to this state – What further states will it evolve to in a few more million years.
Additionally, what further Carbon based life forms are likely to spontaneously evolve soon.PD. Is it not a dangerous thing for species to Spontaneously evolve – Doesn't LIFE show the danger: Like American Grey squirrels introduced into British Red Squirl land dessimated the grey Squirl population…remember Mixamatosis in Aussi land?
A careful gardener doesn't mix herbs with shrubs – but man is not a careful gardener – but God is a careful Gardener…
Stu how are those 2 apes getting on who are randomly hitting the keys on typewriters?
Have they typed out the complete Oxford Dictionary yet, have they come close to only fail on the last word, or is it still all a load of gibberish because of the lack of sufficient intelligence?
t8,
Did you consider my proposal in another thread about the Quotes – Click to expand so all those Easy Quoters don't fill up whole pages with quote on quotes on quotes on quotes on quotes on quotes on quotes on quotes on… you get eh picture ; You see the picture…
Yeah that quote thing is annoying, but it would require some reprogramming in Pearl and that is not my desired language.
How are your Pearl skills?Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 30 2010,11:49) t8, Did you consider my proposal in another thread about the Quotes – Click to expand so all those Easy Quoters don't fill up whole pages with quote on quotes on quotes on quotes on quotes on quotes on quotes on quotes on… you get eh picture ; You see the picture…
Ji JustAskin,Quotes are necessary for the reader to follow the conversation.
But it also can work against the reader, if the whole Post is quoted
by both parties one right after another filling up Pages of irrelevancies.Rules always seem to get in the way of the intended results!
Therefore I stand against rules in favor of ethical behavior.
Ethical behavior can be summarized in a as needed basis!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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