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and being born again, is the conversion. that is what conversion means. when a person converts, they are a new being a new man. we really need to be reading the texts in the Hebraic context that they were written in. trying to infuse our western secular understanding of the texts is why there are so many movements going in a million different directions.
There is no requirement for believers to convert in order to be saved. Remember, the certain group of Pharisees who did believe in Yeshua stated the Shemai doctrine in that one needs to convert in order to obtain salvation. And the Apostles stated that was not the case.
Salvation is not dependent upon conversion. So, one who doesnt convert, will not die in their sins. If they believe and have faith they are saved.
Yeshua did not say, convert or die in your sins.
Why would a Jew need to convert when he is already an Israelite? That makes no sense.
and being born again, is the conversion. that is what conversion means. when a person converts, they are a new being a new man. we really need to be reading the texts in the Hebraic context that they were written in. trying to infuse our western secular understanding of the texts is why there are so many movements going in a million different directions.
hi asher
are you satisfied with our understanding so be it ,Christ as nothing to do with you ,you don't need him
you do not need his father neither,because he is the one who send his son.you are on your own.
Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 30 2010,02:25) There is no requirement for believers to convert in order to be saved. Remember, the certain group of Pharisees who did believe in Yeshua stated the Shemai doctrine in that one needs to convert in order to obtain salvation. And the Apostles stated that was not the case. Salvation is not dependent upon conversion. So, one who doesnt convert, will not die in their sins. If they believe and have faith they are saved.
Yeshua did not say, convert or die in your sins.
Why would a Jew need to convert when he is already an Israelite? That makes no sense.
and being born again, is the conversion. that is what conversion means. when a person converts, they are a new being a new man. we really need to be reading the texts in the Hebraic context that they were written in. trying to infuse our western secular understanding of the texts is why there are so many movements going in a million different directions.
Hi Asher:This is what the scripture states:
Quote Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” [fn]
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' [fn] ” (that is, to bring Christ down [from above])
Rom 10:7 or, ” 'Who will descend into the [fn] abyss?' ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” [fn] (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.Quote 1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which [fn] He has testified of His Son.
1Jo 5:10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.Quote Act 4:10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' [fn]
Act 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”Quote Jhn 14:5
Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
Jhn 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (terraricca @ Jan. 30 2010,20:19) hi asher are you satisfied with our understanding so be it ,Christ as nothing to do with you ,you don't need him
you do not need his father neither,because he is the one who send his son.you are on your own.
Ya know that was a pretty mean thing to say, where is the love in your words? You not demonstrating kindness to your brother who is here sharing and discussing with other brothers and sisters in the Messiah the matters of scriptures. You are condemning a believer. Not very nice.Who are you to say that Messiah has nothing to do with me when I believe in him and believe in what he did for us? Is not faith and belief enough?
Who are you to say that I dont need him? Of course we all need him because the Father sent him to do what he was prophecized to do.
Who are you to say that I dont need the Father when it is He whom I worship and believe in and pray to everyday?
You saying that I am on my own is only showing me that you are judging me the same way that the corrupted Pharisees and Seducees judged the disciples of Yeshua. Therefore your contradictive words and tone are making your position less credible in that you are no different than those who you have disdain for.
I am saddened by those who say things like this, because this is the very reason why there is no unity in the body of Messiah. This is why the fullness of the Gentiles have not yet come in and why many Jews are still blinded from the truth about the Messiah. Until there is unity, it will be just like these words above which just creates barriers between believers.
Remember what Yeshua said about a house divided.
ashermoshehthreepointonefour,
I have a question. In Acts 10:27 Peter tells Cornelius that it is against Jewish Law to associate with or visit Gentiles. I do not remember that being in the Writings. Is it in the oral Torah?
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 31 2010,12:09) ashermoshehthreepointonefour, I have a question. In Acts 10:27 Peter tells Cornelius that it is against Jewish Law to associate with or visit Gentiles. I do not remember that being in the Writings. Is it in the oral Torah?
Jewish law mandates it is against Torah to assaociate with any unclean thing, and the gentiles were very much in fact unclean.Thus the vision three times before the visit with Cornelius.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Feb. 01 2010,02:23) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 31 2010,12:09) ashermoshehthreepointonefour, I have a question. In Acts 10:27 Peter tells Cornelius that it is against Jewish Law to associate with or visit Gentiles. I do not remember that being in the Writings. Is it in the oral Torah?
Jewish law mandates it is against Torah to assaociate with any unclean thing, and the gentiles were very much in fact unclean.Thus the vision three times before the visit with Cornelius.
Thank you!That interpretation seems to contradict the instructions about Aliens in the Torah.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 01 2010,12:03) Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Feb. 01 2010,06:59) Aliens?
Aliens=Gentiles
This is Solomon's prayer:Quote 1Ki 8:41 “Moreover, concerning a foreigner, who [is] not of Your people Israel, but has come from a far country for Your name's sake
1Ki 8:42 (for they will hear of Your great name and Your strong hand and Your outstretched arm), when he comes and prays toward this temple,
1Ki 8:43 hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to You, that all peoples of the earth may know Your name and fear You, as [do] Your people Israel, and that they may know that this temple which I have built is called by Your name.Our instructions from the Lord:
Quote 2Cr 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
2Cr 6:15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
2Cr 6:16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you [fn] are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among [them]. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.” [fn
2Cr 6:17 Therefore “Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.” [fn]
2Cr 6:18 “I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty.” [fn]Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (kerwin @ Feb. 01 2010,12:03) Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Feb. 01 2010,06:59) Aliens?
Aliens=Gentiles
Lol… I thought you meant ET aliens……Quote (942767 @ Jan. 31 2010,01:01) [/quote] ashermoshehthreepointonefour,Jan. wrote:There is no requirement for believers to convert in order to be saved. Remember, the certain group of Pharisees who did believe in Yeshua stated the Shemai doctrine in that one needs to convert in order to obtain salvation. And the Apostles stated that was not the case.
Salvation is not dependent upon conversion. So, one who doesnt convert, will not die in their sins. If they believe and have faith they are saved.
Yeshua did not say, convert or die in your sins.
Why would a Jew need to convert when he is already an Israelite? That makes no sense.
and being born again, is the conversion. that is what conversion means. when a person converts, they are a new being a new man. we really need to be reading the texts in the Hebraic context that they were written in. trying to infuse our western secular understanding of the texts is why there are so many movements going in a million different directions.
Quote
Hi Asher:This is what the scripture states:
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” [fn]
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' [fn] ” (that is, to bring Christ down [from above])
Rom 10:7 or, ” 'Who will descend into the [fn] abyss?' ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” [fn] (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.There are some translation errors in your text.
The actual text does not translate “Christ is the end of the Law”
more accurate translation is “The Messiah is the totality of the Torah”
Other further accurate translation is “Messiah is the culmination of the Law”
but within the context exegetically using the definition “culmination” to mean “climax,” “highest level,” or “all encompassing essence.”
This is what I mean by when I say that there are mistranslations that change the original context in which it was written. This is another classic example. See how that word “end” changes the meaning?
It has always been known that the purpose of the Torah was to bring the Messiah, and that he would be the ultimate Torah keeper. Paul also stated that the aim or goal of the Torah was the Messiah.
This hardly suggests that G-d's perfect instruction manual that He declared was eternal would somehow be ended because the Messiah came. No where in scriptural prophecy gives this impression. The prophecy states that the Messiah would come to TEACH the world the Torah, not keep it and then throw it in the garbage.
Then we have the righteousness of the Law and the righteousness of Faith.
Faith, is a level of the Torah, is a higher level of the Torah, this is why we see that Paul taught the Pharisaic doctrine of the Torah of Faith.
There is the Torah of Sin, the Torah of Works, the Torah of Faith, the Torah of Liberty, the Torah of Spirit, etc etc… these are all levels of the same Torah that was given by Moses. Paul was addressing those levels.
No matter which way it is sliced, it is still the Torah.
Quote 1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which [fn] He has testified of His Son.
1Jo 5:10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.Quote Act 4:10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' [fn]
Act 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”Quote Jhn 14:5
Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
Jhn 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.Not sure why posted these verses, as this thread is proving that Yeshua practiced and taught Oral Torah.
Yeshua was the founder of the HaDerekh Netzarim (The Way of the Sprouts or Branches), they were also called the Moshiachim (the Anointed Ones).
Yeshua was the founder of the HaDerekh Netzarim (The Way of the Sprouts or Branches), they were also called the Moshiachim (the Anointed Ones).
Netzarim also means “sprouts of the olive tree.”
Acts (Ma'asim) 11:26
“And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the kohel (congregation), and taught much people. And the talmidim (disciples) were called Moshiachim (Anointed Ones) first in Antioch.”Acts (Ma'asim) 24:14-15
“But this I confess to you, that according to the sect which they call HaDerekh (The Way) , so I worship the G-d of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Torah and in the Prophets. I have hope in G-d, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.”Acts (Ma'asim) 24:5
“For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Netzarim (Nazarenes):
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