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PROOF THAT YESHUA ADHERED TO, PRACTICED AND TAUGHT ORAL TORAH
REB YESHUA'S UPBRINGING & CHILDHOOD IN TORAH OBSERVANCE
As far written Torah observance by Reb Yeshua in the New Testament; accounts (Luke 2:39-52, Luke 2:21-32, Luke 2:39, Luke 2:41, John 8:46; Galations 4:4) stress that Yeshua was brought up as an observant Jewish child in the traditions and faith of his fathers (who were Jews).
The Oral Torah and Teffilin/Totofot wearing was certainly existent in that day because history proves that, especially being that he grew up in Galilee which was predominantly Pharisee and Hasidic (of that day).
REB YESHUA'S TORAH TEACHING OF TORAH OBSERVANCE
Reb Yeshua told his followers to follow and observe the teachings and instructions of the Rabbis (Matthew 23:1-3). That is certainly a Torah-observant statement as we know the commandment written in Deut. 17:8-12. This would indicate that he upheld all or at least the majority of the Rabbinic provisions, halakha and fence laws in addition to the actual written Torah.
He also said that he didn't come to change the Torah, and that if anyone kept and taught others to keep even the smallest commandments of the Torah that they would be considered great. He also stated that if any broke the commandments and taught others to break them that they would be considered least. (Matthew 5:17-20) Those statements certainly indicate that Torah observance was important of him.
When Reb Yeshua was asked, what was the greatest commandment in the Torah, Reb Yeshua replied with the beginning of the most important spriptural prayer that every Jew recites 2 times each day, the Shema (Mark 12:28-30). That should give serilous creedence to the statement that Reb Yeshua was certainly Torah observant and that he lived and taught Torah observance.
Another extremely vital point to make, is that the Shema is the very scroll that is put inside of the boxes of the Teffilin. For him to make such a profound statement to his students and to the people around him when asked about the most important commandments and recites the Shema… it is more than reasonable to assert that he surely layed Teffilin as any good Jew does. In fact is not reasonable to even assume that he didnt put on Teffilin, based on these facts that the NT does clearly indicate.
Something that else that needs to be considered. The New Testament constantly speaks of Reb Yeshua being a “Tzadik” or a “righteous person.” We know that when a Jew is referred to as a “Tzadik” it means that they have to be Torah observant. In fact, it means that their Torah observance has to exceed and surpass the Letter of the Law. That is what that word means. All the Sages were referred to as Tzadikim.
REB YESHUA'S TORAH OBSERVANCE IN DRESS
He kept the ordinances prescribed in the Torah in terms of his attire, as the Torah commands that man wear a tallit with tzitzit (a four cornered garment with fringes/tassels). When the sick woman reached for him, she grabbed his tzitzit (fringes/tassels) (Mark 6:56; Matthew 9:20; Luke 8:44).
Here is a key point. Because, we understand that the NT clearly records his Torah observance in terms of wearing holy garments. It would be reasonable to assert and to make a educated guess that he would have surely layed Teffilin. Especially since the commandment of Tzitzit is closely related and associated with Mezzuzah and Teffilin.
REB YESHUA'S TORAH OBSERVANCE IN THE BLESSINGS AND PRAYERS
He used and taught the traditional prayers that were instituted by the Sages such as the Amidah – commonly called the “L-rd’s Prayer” (Matthew 6:9-13). His special prayer is merely a shortened form of the third, fifth, sixth, ninth and fifteenth of the Eighteen Benedictions of the Amidah. And this permutative combination of the Amidah is indicated by some of the Sages and is recorded in the Talmud. Also to note, some of the Sages have different rulings and permutive formations of the Amidah prayer, but the point is to show that he at least observed this.
He recited the halachic blessings over matzah and wine when he gave thanks at meals (Luke 22:19-20).
Another point I would like to make is, is that much of the prayers and blessings that one can find in their Siddur (or Jewish daily prayerbook) are not found in the scriptures at all. So these prayers and blessings were certainly Oral Torah or at least instituted traditions passed down before Reb Yeshua from the Rabbis generations to generation.
REB YESHUA'S SABBATH OBSERVANCE
Many people like to point the moments where it seems as thought Yehua is attacking, disobeying and discrediting the halakhot of the Sages, such as the Shabbat, the washing of hands, etc… but they do not realize that the Talmud gives instances that support Yeshua's position in each of the cases that it was brought up. These same instances, reveals very clearly that Yeshua surely upheld and respected the Oral Torah in every way. Since the Sabbath was brought up, I will explain each instance that this argument has been used and explain how my position is not without credible reason.
Carrying on the Sabbath
When Reb Yeshua told the man to pick his bed up and carry it on Shabbat He was not denouncing the Rabbinical authority or the Oral Torah He was in accordance to the the Rabbinical authority and the Oral Torah. The laws of Eruv is part of the 7 rabbinic laws by which the issue at hand proves that Yeshua was in accordance to these laws.
The Oral Torah permits carrying within an enclosed “private” area on Shabbat and other holidays. This area can either be physical or symbolic. Such an area enclosed and considered “private” may vary in size from a small home to an entire community depending on various circumstances and specific situations. The Talmud specifies both the definitions of an enclosure and how to render an entire area a private domain from a small home to an entire community. This is normally done with strings that are fastined around the “private domain.” This string indicates where the people may walk and carry on the Sabbath.
In a Jewish community, especially where this instance occurred in the NT, indicates the location of where this man was with his mat and Reb Yeshua was in the square where there would have been Eruv strings fastened around the domain. We know that by historical records and by traditions that are still practiced there to this very day. To think that only in this moment, that the people ran and took down the Eruv string so that Reb Yeshua would break the Sabbath is not a reasonable assertion.
So we clearly see here, that Reb Yeshua did not violate the Sabbath, nor did he teach others to violate the Sabbath. The people who accused him, where either ignorant of the Torah's laws or they were simply hoping on that ignorance to be a means to persecute Reb Yeshua. The people who questioned the man and Yeshua, obviously, like this situation, they were uneducated on the subject and made statements and judgments that were incorrect.
There are many “fine print” regarding this issue, aside from the fact that this location indicates that the situation occurred with the Eruv strings…. another case can be argued. The man who carried his mat on Shabbat was not breaking the Eruv laws because his home was his bed. He was homeless. The Talmud says in the Shabbat portions that if a person is homeless or cannot afford to set up an Eruv or is unable to do it himself and has no one else to help him… The Eruv becomes himself and his belongings because he is unable to have an enclosed private area… Therefore, Yeshua was not at all violating the Sabbath.
Healing on the Sabbath
When Reb Yeshua healed people on the Sabbath, and the people including certain Pharisees/Seduccees were in opposition… they were only 1. uneducated on the matter (the people) and 2. were relying on the ignorance of the peopl
e to control them (the bad Pharisees).According to the Oral Torah or the Talmud… you would find that it is permitted to heal or save a life or tend to any emergent situation on the Sabbath. All laws are suspended to save a life or to tend to a dire emergency. Here, we see that Reb Yeshua was in accordance to the laws of the Torah.
The phrase, “the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath,” appears in the rabbinical material of the Talmud (Mekilta 103b, Yoma 85b). This statement was a teaching by many Rabbinical scholars of Reb Yeshua's day. The Pharisee School of Hillel was famous for that quote. Yeshua was not saying anything separate from Judaism, he was upholding the teachings of Judaism.
The Sages frequently use the verse from Hosea 6:6, that helping people was of greater importance than observing the rituals and customs (Sukkah 49b, Deuteronomy Rabba on 16:18, etc.), just as Yeshua did. In fact, they used the same examples Yeshua presented, David’s eating the Tabernacle bread and the Temple offerings made on the Sabbath, to demonstrate the same general principle, that the needs of life override the Sabbath restrictions (Y’lomm’denu, Yalkut II, par. 130, Tosefta Shabbat 15b).
We can clearly see now that the Pharisees and Seducees who were accusing Reb Yeshua were corrupted in their judgements against him. We also can tell very clearly that these particular Pharisees were heretical in the fact that they associated with the Seducees who Rabban Hillel, a Pharisee himself, stated were heretics.
Washing of Hands Ritual
Besides the Sabbath issues mentioned above, this is an argument that Jews love to use against Reb Yeshua's adherence to Rabbinic law and that Christians love to use against Judaism. Both sides are wrong.
When the certain Pharisees questioned Yeshua about his disciples not doing the hand washing ritual it is important to note that they didnt question whether or not he washed his hands, they questioned his disciples. It is more than likely that He did wash His hands, but the disciples did not. What does this mean?
The Talmud states that the ritual of hand washing (netilat yedayim) is invalid if the mind and heart is not also “cleansing.” In the Talmud, Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai, stated: “In life it is not the dead who make you unclean; nor is it the water you wash your hands, but rather the ordinances of the king of kings that purifies.” Much later, Rabbi Maimonides (Rambam) made a similar comment, “For to confine oneself to cleaning the outward appearance through washing and cleaning the garment, while having at the same time a lust for various pleasures and unbridled license … merits the utmost blame.”
The Pharisees had judgement in their hearts instead of compassion, and therefore Yeshua contested their teachings because they were breaking commandments in their statements against them. They were not following their own teaching, and therefore were disgracing the laws of HaShem. It was by this reason that Yeshua responded that it is not that which goes into your mouth that makes you unclean, but rather that which comes out. He basically held a mirror in front of their faces.
The tradition of ritual purity; namely, washing the hands; is valid, however, invalid if your mind and your heart is not cleansing. The certain Pharisees were doing things to look pious and special, so others would see… yet they were filthy on the inside. The disciples didnt wash their hands because they didnt feel they were clean inside, and therefore didnt do it in that instance. But we should consider the other verses that reveal that they certain did observe this ritual of washing the hands.
Ya'acov (James) 4:8
“Draw nigh to Elah, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.”The Pharisees taught that the Torah had been given to the community for the purpose of community and therefore any competant person was capable of interpreting it, but that Rabbinical authority was paramount (Deut 17:9-12). Yeshua also taught that Rabbinical authority was paramount (Matt 23:1-3). This is a good indication that reb Yeshua viewed the Pharisaic doctrines and teachings as acceptable and authoritive.
Pharisees believed that the Oral Torah was also given to Moses along with the Written Torah at Mount Sinai. The scriptures in the book of Exodus supports this theory that there was an Oral Teaching given to Moses from God. The Written Torah is incomplete without the Oral Torah. Many of the teachings of Oral Torah was also practiced and taught by Yeshua. In fact, all of the instances that are used against Rabbinic Judaism are the very instances that Yeshua was observing the Oral Torah. I personally find that fact to be a really bubble burster. A person would need to educate themselves on this subject in order to know these things, other wise they will continue to follow the perversions that have been spoonfed to those who do not know.
They were advocates of social improvement and were open to doctrinal developments because they believed that the Torah was a relevant social force. They considered the Torah to be a set table while at the same time being capable of being expanded to address new circumstances and new situations. This not only makes sense, but it is inevitable. They taught that the Torah provided continuity and was a basis for progress and development.
The “traditions of the elders” or also “customs” that were instituted were not to be taken as Biblical command, only secondary in that a tradition or a custom instituted in the community cannot supersede a Biblical commandment. Hence, one of the reasons why Reb Yeshua said “Why do you ALSO transgress the commandments of God by your tradition?” Reb Yeshua was not defending the disciples, he said “why do you ALSO” indicating that the disciples DID transgress against the rabbinic authority, however, ALSO the Pharisees improperly used that Rabbinic instruction when they violated a Biblical command.Reb Yeshua was using their own teachings against them because they were violating the chain of command. A Rabbinic enactment or a tradition or custom cannot ever be above a Biblical commandment, it can only serve as an enhancement of the Biblical command and must be treated as secondary authority. And this is what the Pharisees taught.
REB YESHUA'S WAY OF LIFE
His way of life reflected other Jewish customs as well. He followed the custom of not only teaching in the synagogue, but in the open air like the Rabbis who taught everywhere. The frequent use of Tevilah (baptism) associated with his ministry was also quite common to his time, as the Talmud itself testifies in Sanhedrin 39a. Whether one accepts it or not, it is a fact attested to by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, that even in his final hour, Reb Yeshua did not stop practicing the halakhic rites of Judaism.
Perhaps, most significant was his relationship to the Torah and traditions, which clearly describes as entirely orthodox. He declared the permanent essence and authority of the whole Torah in Mathew 5:17-19 and even accepted the Pharasaic halakhot and the Oral Torah in Mathew 23:1-3 when he said, “you must obey them and do everything they tell you.” Aside from that he endorsed the halakhah of the tithing of herbs (Mathew 23:23), bensche at meals (Mark 6:4, 8:6), blessings over wine, and the reciting of the Rabbinic instituted prayer, the Hallel at the Passover Seder (commonly known as the last supper) (Mark 14:22-23, 26).
Another interesting point was Reb Yeshua's observance of Chunakah (John 10:22-23), which is another Rabbinic enactment and not found written in the Torah as a mandated observance. This again shows that he observed Oral Torah. It is most interesting to note that the only place in the entire Bible that Chanukah is mentioned is in the New Testament.
The “Sermon on the Mount” which is viewed often as an overview of Reb Yeshua’s teaching, reflects concepts familiar to the Sages of his
day, consistent with the Oral Torah and Rabbinical teachings found in the Talmud. It is clear that his teachings consist of magnificent illustrations of the proper understanding of the Torah, spelling out its wider implications just as the many commentaries and debates amongst the Sages recorded in the Talmud. His words were all so common in comparison to the Sages. He uses a Midrashic style which is an interpretation of the Scriptures, just like it is in the Talmud.The widely known phrase to “turn the other cheek” passage (Matthew 5:38-48) is often cited as an example of the radical newness of Yeshua’s teachings. But it is the same Spirit which inspired the best teaching of the Sages. A person is not to seek retaliation but should endure the insult humbly. This the Sages agreed with, and counseled that a person struck on the cheek should forgive the offending party even if he does not ask forgiveness (Tosefta Baba Kanima 9:29). The Talmud commends the person who accepts offense without retaliation and submits to suffering and insult cheerfully (Yoma 23a). In fact, one can find parallels in the Rabbinical material to almost all of Reb Yeshua’s statements.
THE NEW TESTAMENT AND TORAH OBSERVANCE
According to exegetical and scholarly approach, the nature of the NT's text certainly assumes Torah observance but stresses moral laws because of the fact that morality seems to be mankind's most difficult struggle. The reason being is because, the people of the New Testament already had the Tenakh (Old Testament) as a normative guideline of how to keep the laws of HaShem and how to be an observant Jew. There was basically no need to stress Torah observance in that way, but yet, as I have provided, there are clear indications that prove Rebbe Yeshua did in fact observe Oral and Written Torah.
Rebbe Yeshua would not have been able to have such a large following if he was not Torah observant, for people were calling him the Messiah. And the Jews of that day knew that the Messiah must be Torah observant according to the prophecies of the OT. They would never have referred to him as a Tzadik had he not been Torah observant.
Even in educational Jewish learning books, such as the Encyclopedia Judaica, says that “the New Testament provides us with undeniable evidence that Yeshua did not oppose any prescription of the Written or Oral Torah.”
Yehezkel Kaufmann, a famous Jewish author on Jewish thought, said that, “The attitude of Yeshua to the Torah is the very same attitude one finds among the masters of halakhah and aggadatta who followed in the Pharisaic tradition.”
So, we can see here, that we do know alot of about Rebbe Yeshua, and we do know very clearly that he was a Torah observant Jew who did teach and practice Oral and Written Torah, not in a general manner but in a very specific and scrupolous manner.
hi asher
and now we can look ahead to the new covenant ,and follow Christ to obtain the grace of God who will bring us everlasting live.Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2010,04:43) hi asher
and now we can look ahead to the new covenant ,and follow Christ to obtain the grace of God who will bring us everlasting live.
HI there…The New Covenant still involves the same Torah.
Grace was always an element of Torah, as it is merely a particular level of Torah. Torah has what the Sages call “70 faces,” these levels are the Spirit of Torah, the Faith of Torah, the Torah of Liberty, the Torah of Works, etc etc etc
Following Messiah would be keeping the Torah, as he did and taught us all to do until the heaven and earth pass away
Matisyahu (Matthew) 19:16-17
“And, behold, one person came and said unto him, Good Rabbi, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he (Yeshua) said unto him, Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, G-d: but if thou will enter into eternal life, then keep the commandments.”Just because we are saved by the grace of G-d through Yeshua doesnt mean that now the Torah is done away with. Then Grace would have no point in the first place if it would lead to doing away with the instructions from G-d.
Hi Asher:
Quote Mic 6:7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn [for] my transgression, The fruit of my body [for] the sin of my soul?
Mic 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what [is] good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 23 2010,17:08) Hi Asher: Quote Mic 6:7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn [for] my transgression, The fruit of my body [for] the sin of my soul?
Mic 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what [is] good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi. This is a verse we read everyday in the morning prayers at synagogue. This does not have anything to do with the discussion. Not sure why you posted it. Care to comment on the original topic?Shalom
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 25 2010,03:01) hi asher if you would understand it ,you would'n ask
I understood what you said, but has nothing to do with the topic.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2010,07:32) Hi ASH,
Jesus taught about the Law to the Jews.
In so doing he did not give it to the gentiles.
Hi there….The prophecies regarding the Messiah state that the Messiah will spread the Torah throughout the world to all nations.
The requirement for being the Messiah was to be a teacher of the Torah to all nations.
If you are saying that he did not do this, then he cannot be the Messiah. This is obviously not true. It cant be.
Hi ASH,
He was not sent to proseletyse for Judaism and neither should we.
Life is IN HIM, not in the old jewish Law.
You must be born again.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2010,09:09) Hi ASH,
He was not sent to proseletyse for Judaism and neither should we.
Life is IN HIM, not in the old jewish Law.
You must be born again.
Hi Nick,The non-Jew is still subject to the Torah, these are the Noachide Laws that even Paul of Tarsus continued to teach to the non-Jew who is not yet ready to convert and since salvation is not dependent upon conversion. Still, the non-Jew is still subject to the Noachide Laws which are in the Torah itself.
The point of this thread is not to proselytize but to show that the anti-Torah anti-Oral Torah claims are debunked and refuted by the proof provided in the scriptures of the New Testament and the Oral Torah revealing that Yeshua was an adherent, teacher and observer for the Oral Torah. This fact changes the scope for what many have been taught for centuries with disinformation and misguidance. This shows that he was teaching Judaism.
Being born again was always a Jewish concept, meaning that when a person converts (circumcises either in flesh or in heart), one becomes a new man, a new born child. So that is all the NT is speaking of, that in coming to the faith one is reborn through their circumcision in their hearts.
The problem is, that with the Bible, people have tried to de-Judaify it. Its like trying to take the Hindu out of the Bagivadgita. No matter how much we try to take it away, it is a fact the Biblical writings are Hebraic in context, the concepts are Jewish. Just like the concepts and contexts of the Bagivadgita are Hindu.
The Bible speaks about grafting the Gentiles into Israel, not the other way around. And Israel, the Messiah, Torah… all these things are Jewish concepts. So there would be no reason to think that it would have changed with the Messiah's arrival and departure.
It is important to note that the prophecies regarding the Messiah does in fact state that he will teach Torah throughout the world to all nations.
Isaiah 42:1-10
“Behold my servant, who I uphold; my elect, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his Torah. Thus says G-d HaShem, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; he that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I HaShem have called you in righteousness, and will hold your hand, and will keep you, and give you a covenant of the people, for a light unto the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.”Isaiah 2:2-4
“And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of HaShem's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come you, and let us go up to the mountain of HaShem, to the house of the G-d of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the Torah, and the word of HaShem from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 25 2010,01:52) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 23 2010,17:08) Hi Asher: Quote Mic 6:7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn [for] my transgression, The fruit of my body [for] the sin of my soul?
Mic 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what [is] good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi. This is a verse we read everyday in the morning prayers at synagogue. This does not have anything to do with the discussion. Not sure why you posted it. Care to comment on the original topic?Shalom
Hi:I posted it because it is not about all of the rituals that men seemly think that by doing them they will be pleasing God.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 27 2010,16:26) Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 25 2010,01:52) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 23 2010,17:08) Hi Asher: Quote Mic 6:7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn [for] my transgression, The fruit of my body [for] the sin of my soul?
Mic 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what [is] good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi. This is a verse we read everyday in the morning prayers at synagogue. This does not have anything to do with the discussion. Not sure why you posted it. Care to comment on the original topic?Shalom
Hi:I posted it because it is not about all of the rituals that men seemly think that by doing them they will be pleasing God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Who said anything about doing rituals to please G-d?And how is this thread about rituals when it is about Yeshua teaching Oral Torah?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2010,09:09) Hi ASH,
He was not sent to proseletyse for Judaism and neither should we.
Life is IN HIM, not in the old jewish Law.
You must be born again.
Amen. This sums it up.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,14:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2010,09:09) Hi ASH,
He was not sent to proseletyse for Judaism and neither should we.
Life is IN HIM, not in the old jewish Law.
You must be born again.
Amen. This sums it up.Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,The non-Jew is still subject to the Torah, these are the Noachide Laws that even Paul of Tarsus continued to teach to the non-Jew who is not yet ready to convert and since salvation is not dependent upon conversion. Still, the non-Jew is still subject to the Noachide Laws which are in the Torah itself.
The point of this thread is not to proselytize but to show that the anti-Torah anti-Oral Torah claims are debunked and refuted by the proof provided in the scriptures of the New Testament and the Oral Torah revealing that Yeshua was an adherent, teacher and observer for the Oral Torah. This fact changes the scope for what many have been taught for centuries with disinformation and misguidance. This shows that he was teaching Judaism.
Being born again was always a Jewish concept, meaning that when a person converts (circumcises either in flesh or in heart), one becomes a new man, a new born child. So that is all the NT is speaking of, that in coming to the faith one is reborn through their circumcision in their hearts.
The problem is, that with the Bible, people have tried to de-Judaify it. Its like trying to take the Hindu out of the Bagivadgita. No matter how much we try to take it away, it is a fact the Biblical writings are Hebraic in context, the concepts are Jewish. Just like the concepts and contexts of the Bagivadgita are Hindu.
The Bible speaks about grafting the Gentiles into Israel, not the other way around. And Israel, the Messiah, Torah… all these things are Jewish concepts. So there would be no reason to think that it would have changed with the Messiah's arrival and departure.
It is important to note that the prophecies regarding the Messiah does in fact state that he will teach Torah throughout the world to all nations.
Isaiah 42:1-10
“Behold my servant, who I uphold; my elect, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his Torah. Thus says G-d HaShem, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; he that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I HaShem have called you in righteousness, and will hold your hand, and will keep you, and give you a covenant of the people, for a light unto the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.”Isaiah 2:2-4
“And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of HaShem's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come you, and let us go up to the mountain of HaShem, to the house of the G-d of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the Torah, and the word of HaShem from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.Hi Ash:
To be sure, we owe a great debt of gratitude to the Jewish people. Salvation is from the Jews, and Jesus did not come to change the Law but to fulfill, and in him, the spirit of Christ we fulfill the law.
The oral law does not apply to body of Christ. God's eternal law was written on tables of stone by the finger of God in the OT, and is now being written in the hearts and minds of born again believers by God's Holy Spirit.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,14:29) Hi Ash: To be sure, we owe a great debt of gratitude to the Jewish people. Salvation is from the Jews, and Jesus did not come to change the Law but to fulfill, and in him, the spirit of Christ we fulfill the law.
The oral law does not apply to body of Christ. God's eternal law was written on tables of stone by the finger of God in the OT, and is now being written in the hearts and minds of born again believers by God's Holy Spirit.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Howdie…If the Oral Torah does not apply, then Yeshua would not have taught it and practiced it.
Does the NT not refer to Gentiles as in the past tense? and that Gentiles are grafted into Israel? So, then that would mean that you are also an Israelite. So the gratitude you have is great, however dont think that you are not part of the fold.
Yeshua stated very clearly in a number of instances that the Torah and all of its laws will be in full effect for all of time. And that we are all subject to obeying them. So, just because Yeshua fulfilled the Torah, he was merely doing what he was obligated to do…. just like we all are obligated to fulfill. His fulfilling it didnt make us exempt… for anyone who teaches against the Torah or teaches others to break it, is considered the least in the Kingdom.
The Torah written on the heart, would pertain to faith and love… so much more so that it would need to be put into action. As the scriptures state, faith and spirit without works is empty and dead.
Peace and Love
AshHi Asher:
I have already stated that we owe a great debt of gratitude to the Jewish people, and yes, we gentiles were grafted in, but this is what that Apostle Paul had to say:
Quote Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, [remember that] you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
Rom 11:20 Well [said]. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, [fn] if you continue in [His] goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who [are] natural [branches], be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, [fn] as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;The following scriptures illustrate what it means to be born again:
Quote Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be [in the likeness] of [His] resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him], that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Rom 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
Rom 6:10 For [the death] that He died, He died to sin once for all; but [the life] that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.Quote Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors–not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.If they whom you say will not convert, will not convert, they will die in their sins.
Love in Christ,
Martyhi asher
strange things happen yes Christ was raised as a Jew in according to the law,that's a fact;
but tell me why did he not pick disciples from the elite of the day and in stead he went out to fishermen common people
??
that is a fact.
why is it that is teachings calls to abandon the worship in Jerusalem but rather worship in the spirit of truth and spirit.??this is a fact.
why is it that to be saved the Jews now ad to drop there law worship and become a true worshiper in the spirit.???
did they change no they still follow tradition so they are trapped in a men made order ,and the god of this world.Quote (942767 @ Jan. 29 2010,16:07) Hi Asher: I have already stated that we owe a great debt of gratitude to the Jewish people, and yes, we gentiles were grafted in, but this is what that Apostle Paul had to say:
Quote Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, [remember that] you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
Rom 11:20 Well [said]. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, [fn] if you continue in [His] goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who [are] natural [branches], be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, [fn] as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;The following scriptures illustrate what it means to be born again:
Quote Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be [in the likeness] of [His] resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him], that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Rom 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
Rom 6:10 For [the death] that He died, He died to sin once for all; but [the life] that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.Quote Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors–not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.If they whom you say will not convert, will not convert, they will die in their sins.
Love in Christ,
Marty
There is no requirement for believers to convert in order to be saved. Remember, the certain group of Pharisees who did believe in Yeshua stated the Shemai doctrine in that one needs to convert in order to obtain salvation. And the Apostles stated that was not the case.Salvation is not dependent upon conversion. So, one who doesnt convert, will not die in their sins. If they believe and have faith they are saved.
Yeshua did not say, convert or die in your sins.
Why would a Jew need to convert when he is already an Israelite? That makes no sense.
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