- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2009,08:00) Hi TT,
Unconvinced.
In Jn 14 we are told by Jesus to believe in God AND himself.
Nick,
The Scripture forbids our putting our trust in man. Right? Yet you admit that Jesus told His disciples to believe in Him. The apostle John wrote His epistle to illicit faith and confidence toward Him. And King David said “Blessed are all who put their trust in Him” (Psalm 2:12).How could a king of Israel pronounce blessing on those who put their trust in a man when the Scripture forbids the putting trust in man?
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2009,09:46) Hi TT,
So the One Who appointed him is the God of Israel of Jesus and US[1Cor8]
Does the Son have the power to DESTROY YOU (Psalm 2:12)?thinker
Hi TT,m
So in saying what he did in Jn 14 Jesus showed he was not God but that access to the love and grace and powers of God foir men is only through the one appointed as mediator for men, the Son of God.Interestingly he did not demand belief in any trinity or third person you offer.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2009,09:56) Hi TT,m
So in saying what he did in Jn 14 Jesus showed he was not God but that access to the love and grace and powers of God foir men is only through the one appointed as mediator for men, the Son of God.Interestingly he did not demand belief in any trinity or third person you offer.
Nick,
Does the Son have the power to DESTROY those who will not honor Him? Yes or no?thinker
Hi TT,
You should be very cautious about meeting the one to whom all power and authority has been given by God.He will deal appropriately with his enemies when he returns.
Preaching what he never taught is brave stuff.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 02 2009,16:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2009,05:43) Hi Jodi Yes, I am denying that YHWH ever called men “gods, or the Father is contradicting himself! And before you throw up Moses, check it out, YHWH did not call Moses “God”, he said Moses would be as “a god” to Pharaoh because Pharaoh believed in other gods!
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
You make YHWH into an idiot, for you are saying that YHWH says do not even mention the name of other Gods and yet you claim he is calling men “gods” and that Jesus is teaching us to do so.
Ps 82 is YHWH speaking of kings and judges in a derogatory way since as you say men do not have any supernatural powers, therefore they were not “gods” at all, and in fact were ungodly men and the Psalmist said they would die like men!
Jesus is making the same derogatory point, for the Hypocrites believed that there were other “gods”, and Jesus refers to “Their Law” which may have been the “Talmud” a compilation of their written laws and traditions.
The Father or Jesus was not promoting “Polytheism”…
Polytheism is the **BELIEF IN** and worship of multiple deities, called gods and goddesses. Source
Jesus is not called “a god” anywhere in scriptures as I said, and Paul clearly states…
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and “ THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE”. 1 Cor 8:4
What part of the “No God but One” is unclear to you Jodi?
Now, all you have to do is figure out why Jesus is called God more than once and even by the Father!
I know the answer, but you just want to write pages of apologetics to get around the clear scriptures. So live with the contradictions if you like.
But for me, I believe all of the scriptures in their simplest reading without all the special pleading and inference!
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, Titus 2:13
WJ
So you ADMIT that you deny the words of Jesus where he was quoting scripture?
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, 'I said, “You are gods” '? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
Regardless of where exactly this scripture came, Jesus declares that it CANNOT be BROKEN, what part of that don't you get? If the scripture according to the mouth of Jesus cannnot be broken then it was obviously a valid one.
Hebrews 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
YHWH here, is speaking to Jesus the CHRIST, he is speaking to the MAN whom YHWH foreordained to be for us a savior. YHWH is CALLING a MAN god!!
This fits perfectly with the fact that YHWH said “You are gods.”
You OBVIOUSLY did NOT read through my post. Your problem is you fail to understand in what context we are to believe YHWH IS the ONE TRUE GOD! You have NO clue.
This MAN of whom the Father called god, was god, NOT by his OWN powers, but by the power of the ONE TRUE GOD.
YHWH does NOT want us to believe that there exist ANY other being who possesses on their OWN supernatural powers. Men have indeed made gods in their own minds that possess such powers. Men WORSHIP these beings because they revere them for their powers. However YHWH makes it clear that He is the ONLY being that DESRVES such worship because He is the ONLY being who ACTUALLY has such powers.
“DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH.” Exod 23:13
Your thinking IMO is conveniently narrow minded WJ!
What OTHER gods is the text referring to? He is referring to false gods, gods that have NO powers. Not the gods of whom YHWH himself makes. Jesus in fact DID have supernatural powers, not through himself but through His Father. YHWH also made Jesus an example for his companions, a person to be honored and revered, like a god.
Scripture in fact declares that there exists ONE True God and He is said to be the Father. The OT tells us that YHWH ALONE is God, and that He would bring forth a Son of the seed of David. So if you want to keep to your way of thinking, which like I said is rather conveniently narrow minded, having NO understanding as to what actually constitues the ONE TRUE GOD as meaning, then you must then in keeping with believing that Jesus is the ONE True God, assert that Jesus is YHWH and he is his own father. Your the one who make God out to be an idiot.
Once again,
Since Jesus did NOTHING of himself, everything he did came through the powers and planning of YHWH, that would obviously make him NOT the ONE TRUE God. This knowledge and understanding of Jesus keeps us in worshipping YHWH correctly as the God who ALONE is the SOURCE of ALL Powers, Wisdom and Might.
It's like saying this, if you mean Jesus is god because he had supernatural powers, as men denote to gods, then YES Jesus was god. If you mean Jesus is god becasue he is to be honored and revered, like men denote to gods, then yes he is god. If you mean is Jesus the One True God of whom ALL power, wisdom and authority comes from, then NO, he is not THAT GOD, for we are told CLEARLY THAT God is YHWH, that God is the FATHER!!
JodiHere is a challenge for you since you think that YWHW contradicts himself when he says…
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
First of all you read into this your own inference by saying he is talking about false gods, **EXCEPT** when he calls other gods like Jesus God!
Then you proceed to tell us there is only “One True God”.
So where does that leave Jesus? If he is “God” because God calls him God then he is “True God”, right? Or is he a false one, which is what your confused and carnal mind believes it seems!
Exod 23:13 is clear to not mention the name of other gods and it doesnt infer true or false gods, that is your own inference.
Paul specifically says…
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and “ THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE”. 1 Cor 8:4
He doesn't make the distinction between true and false here.
He clearly says “THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“.
I don't know if you can count or not, but “One” means “One” and not “One” plus some others that YHWH calls God!
Paul also says…
For even if there are so‑called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4
So there are “so-called” gods of men but not recognized
by YHWH or the followers of Christ as gods at all.And here was Pauls chance to say “except Jesus” he can be called a god because YHWH calls him God.
Jesus is either “True God” or he is not God at all!
So here is your challenge Jodi…
Show me anywhere in NT scriptures where any of the Apostles or followers of Christ called any other being “God” other than the Father and Jesus!
In the mean time live with your contradictions, for scriptures are clear that Jesus is God and not just “a God” which you have yet to prove!
And you have yet to address this scripture…
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, Titus 2:13
Contextually coupled together with the GSR, Titus 2:13 along with other scriptures are unambiguous in claiming that Jesus is the Great God and Saviour!
Paul is not calling Jesus “a god”!
WJ
Hi WJ,
You earn a living preaching this stuff so it is not surprising you cannot be shown it is a false basis for teaching a strange new trinity god.–There is only ONE God that humans should worship.
–The Bible acknowledges that there are many gods. (1 cor 8:5)
–Knowing that there are many gods does not make a person polytheistic.
–There is only one true God to be worshiped.
–The New Testament was written in the common Greek but it was written by Hebrews. The Hebrew word of god is derived from the root meaning mighty one and this can be applied to many situations.
–For example the God of the Hebrews YHWH (in English best known as Jehovah) appointed Moses as god to Pharaoh. (Ex 4:16; 7:1) What does “I have made thee a god to Pharaoh” mean? Was Moses a false god? Or does the word “god” have an actual meaning?And that's the question no one will answer: Was Moses a false god?
Or, can we take the correct understanding of the use of the word “god.”?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2009,19:07) Hi WJ,
You earn a living preaching this stuff so it is not surprising you cannot be shown it is a false basis for teaching a strange new trinity god.
NHI am gonna tell you this once again and hope that you hear it this time…
I do not take any money from my Church but work with my own hands, for I am not currently Pastoring but am engaged in school.
WJ
GENERICIZED TRADEMARK EFFECT (proprietary eponym)
Basically, when a word (“god” or “kleenex”) that can mean many things is used so much to mean one specific thing, that word tends to get confused with that specific thing.
Kleenex makes many products. But because their main product is facial tissue, when people hear “kleenex” they naturally think “facial tissue.” In fact, the kleenex brand is so strong, that many people call “facial tissue” kleenex, no matter what brand it actually is.
People are confused. They are confused because the word “God” is almost always applied to the Creator, and so they think “God” means the Creator/Father.
It’s easy to understand why this would happen. Many people get confused by Jello, Aspirin, Jacuzzi, Roller Blades, ScotchTape, Ziploc or Kleenex. I grew up thinking “kleenex” and “facial tissue” meant the exact same thing. But “kleenex” is a brand of facial tissue. But because it has become a genericised trademark, the very word “kleenex” has come to be used by many in place of the words “facial tissue.”
Many people use the word “kleenex” to mean facial tissue, in general. It does not.
Similarly, people think “god” means “the Creator, the Father, the true God.” It does not.Similarly, the word “god” is applied to Jesus, angels, judges, Satan, false gods, etc.
(it means “powerful one.”)*****
IT IS FALSE LOGIC AND JUST WRONG THINKING TO ASSUME THAT BECAUSE THERE IS “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” THAT EVERYONE ELSE THAT IS CALLED GOD IS EITHER A PART OF THAT GODHEAD OR FALSE.
ARE THE ANGELS A PART OF THE GODHEAD OR ARE THEY FALSE GODS?
(OR, PERHAP'S ARE THEY ACTUALLY POWERFUL BEINGS, GODS, IN RELATION TO HUMANS?–NOT FALSE GODS, NOT PART OF A GODHEAD.)People associate the word “true” with “false” meaning that one is “correct” and one is “incorrect.” Jehovah is the correct God and everyone else is false therefore. But those words (TRUE AND FALSE) have other meanings.
Saying: “You have just become a TRUE friend” DOES NOT MEAN you used to be a “false” friend.
That is the major error that trinitarians use to suit their purposes.
If Jehovah is the only true God, it means he is God (“mighty one”) in the fullest sense. He is “almighty.” and hence,the only true God. He is “truly” God.
Others, while called “god” and while they are mighty, relatively speaking, are not almighty.
It does not mean they are “false gods” as is always incorrectly stated.
Moses was NOT a false god.
Is he?
Quote I do not take any money from my Church but work with my own hands, for I am not currently Pastoring but am engaged in school. –WJ
The way you worded that, makes it seem like you would be taking money from your church if you weren't going to school. Is that true? What is the deal?
Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,19:10) –There is only ONE God that humans should worship
And yet many scriptures show Jesus being worshipped (.proskyneō), the same Greek word that Jesus used in referring to the “True Worship” to the Father!
Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,19:10)
–The Bible acknowledges that there are many gods. (1 cor 8:5)
The Bible acknowledges there are “so-called” gods and lords of men which are not gods at all…For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:6
Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,19:10)
–Knowing that there are many gods does not make a person polytheistic.
Believing that there are other gods is Polytheistic!Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,19:10)
–There is only one true God to be worshiped.
Already addressed!Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,19:10) –The New Testament was written in the common Greek but it was written by Hebrews. The Hebrew word of god is derived from the root meaning mighty one and this can be applied to many situations.
We need a reference for your definition other than Watchtower!Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,19:10)
–For example the God of the Hebrews YHWH (in English best known as Jehovah) appointed Moses as god to Pharaoh. (Ex 4:16; 7:1) What does “I have made thee a god to Pharaoh” mean?
It means that to Pharaoh he was “a god” because Pharaoh believed in many gods.Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,19:10)
Was Moses a false god?
Neither, because Moses was not a god at all! Maybe you can give us a scripture where Moses followers like Joshua and Aaron ever referred to Moses as a God, or maybe there is another scripture that says Moses was “a god” somewhere in the OT!Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,19:10)
Or does the word “god” have an actual meaning?And that's the question no one will answer: Was Moses a false god?
Or, can we take the correct understanding of the use of the word “god.”?
I just answered it, Moses was not a God at all, unless you believe like Pharaoh a Polytheist that there are many gods!So the challenge is to you also David, give us one example of an Apostle or a follower of Christ in the NT that called any other being “God” other than the Father and Jesus that is not a “so-called” god!
We have been here before and you have failed to do so!
WJ
Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,19:18) Quote I do not take any money from my Church but work with my own hands, for I am not currently Pastoring but am engaged in school. –WJ
The way you worded that, makes it seem like you would be taking money from your church if you weren't going to school. Is that true? What is the deal?
DavidDo you find it scripturally wrong for Pastor to take a salary?
How does the JWs support the missions work?
WJ
Quote And yet many scriptures show Jesus being worshipped (.proskyneō), I know that you know that word is used in a grand variety of ways. The scriptures don't show Jesus being worshipped, they show him being “proskyneo” ed (which sometimes means worship and sometimes “don't.”)
Hi David
Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,19:17) Moses was NOT a false god. Is he?
No, because Moses was not a God at all!Where is the scriptures or scripture David that Moses is called God in the OT.
Where is the reference that shows Joshua or Aaron or anyone calling him God!
No, Moses was “a god” to Pharaoh because he was a Polytheist, and nothing more!
WJ
Quote David Do you find it scripturally wrong for Pastor to take a salary?
How does the JWs support the missions work?
Would it be rude to ask how much you get?
Of course paul built tents.
But yes, to answer your question:
Quote Expenses are manageable, as there are no paid clergy and the meeting places are modest. Donations forwarded to the nearest branch office of Jehovah's Witnesses are used for disaster relief, support for missionaries and traveling ministers, construction of houses of worship, and the printing and shipping of Bibles and Christian publications. Quote No, because Moses was not a God at all! He was a god (mighty one) to Pharoah, or at least, that's what scripture says.
Quote Moses was “a god” to Pharaoh because he was a Polytheist, and nothing more!
Are you suggesting that Pharoah was a polytheist who worshipped Moses? Is that how you think Moses was a god to Pharoah?Pass the Kleenex please.
Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,19:51) Quote And yet many scriptures show Jesus being worshipped (.proskyneō), I know that you know that word is used in a grand variety of ways. The scriptures don't show Jesus being worshipped, they show him being “proskyneo” ed (which sometimes means worship and sometimes “don't.”)
Hi DavidYou mean when it suits your doctrine.
Can you give us some examples where it is used and not discouraged by the recipient other than the word being used as mockery?
Tell us David, why did Jesus use the same word when he could have used others to describe true worship to the Father!
Why didn't Jesus discourage his followers when the grabbed him by his feet and worshipped him?
WJ
Quote Adj.1.polytheistic – worshipping or believing in more than one god If the Bible says there are many gods, (even you you say they are false gods) is the Bible polytheistic?
Notice the word worshipping.
Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,19:55) Quote David Do you find it scripturally wrong for Pastor to take a salary?
How does the JWs support the missions work?
Would it be rude to ask how much you get?
Of course paul built tents.
But yes, to answer your question:
Quote Expenses are manageable, as there are no paid clergy and the meeting places are modest. Donations forwarded to the nearest branch office of Jehovah's Witnesses are used for disaster relief, support for missionaries and traveling ministers, construction of houses of worship, and the printing and shipping of Bibles and Christian publications.
Hi DavidThanks, so there are those that use God's money for their monetary needs!
Pastors usually are supported based on the size of the congregations and what the Presbytery decides!
Paul said…
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, (wages) especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward. 1 Tim 5:17, 18
WJ
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
