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Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 31 2009,10:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2009,15:54) Quote (eveh @ Aug. 30 2009,22:15) What do you do with a scripture like this? Numbers 23:19-20 (King James Version)
19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
If Jesus is a man and he is God, doesn't that make him a man too?
When you try to force this doctrine on the scriptures, you end up with some pretty confuisng scriptures.
Isa. 53: 3 said that Jesus was a MAN OF SORROWS.
1Tim 2: 5 said Jesus is a man who mediates between God and man.
MARK SURE THOUGHT HE WAS THE SON OF GOD..NOT GOD
Mark 11. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. (Word of God by Mark)
11. And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased. (God)
3: 11. And the unclean spirits, whensoever they beheld him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God. (unclean spirits)
Mark 5: 7. and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not. (demons in man)
9: 7. And there came a cloud overshadowing them: and there came a voice out of the cloud, This is my beloved Son: hear ye him. (God)
14: 61. But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and saith unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62. And Jesus said, I am: (Jesus himself)
15: 39. And when the centurion, who stood by over against him, saw that he so gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. (centurion)
Luke 1: 32. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: (word of God by Luke)
35. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (angel to Mary)
22: 70. And they all said, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. (Jesus)
John 1: 18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Word of God by John)
33. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, he said unto me, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, the same is he that baptizeth in the Holy Ghost.
34. And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.
(John the Baptist as told to him by God of sending the Spirit upon him)
(John saw and bore witness that this is the Son of God; did not say this is God) (Notice also that none of these people had any question of Jesus being God; they were questioning if he were the Son of God. They never at any time thought Jesus was God. It is just not in the Word.)
Thanks to my freidn Jo for some of these scriptures.Learn more here:
http://buildonthetruefoundation.aimoo.com/Jesus….93.html
Dear eveh,
Surely it is very important to God the Father to reveal Jesus as His Son and not as Himself.It is also important to know that you can trust Him, for He is not like a man that lies and needs to repent. I believe that is the message of Numbers 23:19-20
It is important for us to know that the Son is THE ACTUAL SON OF GOD and not just as an ordinary son of Abraham. He is unique …the Father was never a son, Jesus is and always was a son.
It is also important to know that the Son of God laid down His life in heaven to become a humble servant within a flesh and blood body. One who deserved glory and honor, subjected Himself to ridicule and abuse…for you eveh and me and all of us. He subjected Himself to become a man of sorrows. Don't miss the magnitude of this. I don't believe that the Father forced Him to lay down His life to face what He didn't deserve in order to redeem us.
So, yes, Jesus is the SON of God and I ask you again…what is a true son of something. Creation testifies that a true son is another of his kind. That Son became man. He wasn't always a man. He was heavenly and came from heaven to inhabit a body prepared for Him.
It is important to know that He is not the source but He was from the source. Yet, it is important to know that He is the same kind that His Father is, just like creation declares a true son to be…another of the same kind. What kind is the Father???
He had to come as a man and die in order to redeem us and He came willingly, not by force.
I'll bet that you can find verses where the Father refers to Him as God, or apostles refer to Him as God, or John or Thomas. You know how to look up verses. Find the ones that support that He is God to go along with your verses that support that He is the Son of God if you want to search this honestly. They are both in the Bible.
It is easy to understand how He can be both when you understand that the Father is the Most High God and the Son is the only begotten God. They are the same nature but one is totally dependent on the other and the Most High God is dependent on no one.
Blessings,
LU
Hello eveh and Welcome! Kathi's post is right in a sense that Jesus is the Son of God. She does not give any Scriptures to show though that Jesus preexisted His Birth before He became a Human Being.
In Co. 1:15″ He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn overall creation.”
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in Earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or power. All things were created through him and for Him.Rev. 3:14 ….”These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.”
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
verse 2 He was in the beginning with God.
verse 14 And the Word became flesh abd dwelt among us….After Jesus became a Man and was crucified and resurrected He says this in
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the World was.”
Jesus was not only the first creation of God, but He also
was the firstborn of the death.Col, !: 18 And He is the Head of the Body, the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the death, that in all things He may have preeminence. Meaning that He was first in all. The firstborn over all creation and the firstborn of the death.
Jesus is a literal Son of God by creation.
Proverbs 6:22-30 to me it is were David explained in detail, how He became God's Son. Most will say that it is Wisdom speaking. However I Don't belief that, because God already had all wisdom and was always Deity and always existed.
Proverbs 8:22 ' The LORD possessed Me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of o
ld. When you see LORD in cpital letters it is always the Father.
verse 23 ” I have been established from everlasting, before there ever was an earth.
verse 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth. When there were no fountains abounding with water.
verse 25 Before the Mountains were settled, Before the Hills, I was brought forth;
verse 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields.
Or the primval dust of the world.
verse 27 When He prepared the heavens I was there. When He drew a circle on the face of the deep.
verse 28 When He established the clouds above. When He strenghtend the fountains of the deep.
verse 29 When He assigned the deep its limits,
So that the waters would not transgress His command. When He marked out the fountains of the earth.
Then I was beside Him.I also want to say this, because some think, like I said, will say that it was wisdom.. Wisdom and patience, Love etc. are all the essence of God the Father. The last verse says
” Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman and I was daily His Delight. Can that be Wisdom, that a person has and possess? I don't think so.
You gave wonderful Scriptures that explains Jesus as a Man. He had Gods Holy Spirit in Him without Measure. Not only that, since He was with the Father as a Spirit being, He knew what was at stake if He would sin. God had to send His only begotten Son into the world, no other Human could do what He did. He was in all things like us, except the Holy Spirit of the Father, He had without measure. We have some of Gods Spirit, but not like Jesus did.
All Human Being have fallen short of the glory of God, and have sinned. John tells us if we believe that we are not sinners, the truth is not in us.
Peace and Love Irene
I just want to add here that, Like Irene, I believe the Son also did exist before creation. However Irene and I disagree about how the Son came into being. Irene thinks that He was created and I think that He was begotten of God, not created.
LUQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 31 2009,04:50) Hi eveh Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 30 2009,23:54) It is easy to understand how He can be both when you understand that the Father is the Most High God and the Son is the only begotten God. They are the same nature but one is totally dependent on the other and the Most High God is dependent on no one.
But, it’s not so easy to understand that you have 2 Gods and not one!And it’s not so easy to understand scriptures like these…
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
Did YHWH change his mind?
and…
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and “ THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE”. 1 Cor 8:4
The Apostle Paul forgot to mention anywhere in the 2/3rds of the New Testament of which he penned under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus was a “Begotten God”, in fact that term is exclusive to the NASU in one verse.
To believe there is more than “One True God” of any sort or in any sense, is pure Polytheism!
Either Jesus is “True God” or he is not God at all!
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of “our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus“, Titus 2:13
There was Pauls opportunity to mention “Begotten God”, but it's not there!
Blessings WJ
This type of response is comical, I think. Which would he want me to stop worshipping as God…the Father or the Son? If the answer is neither than what does it all matter?LU
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2009,07:15) Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 31 2009,10:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2009,15:54) Quote (eveh @ Aug. 30 2009,22:15) What do you do with a scripture like this? Numbers 23:19-20 (King James Version)
19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
If Jesus is a man and he is God, doesn't that make him a man too?
When you try to force this doctrine on the scriptures, you end up with some pretty confuisng scriptures.
Isa. 53: 3 said that Jesus was a MAN OF SORROWS.
1Tim 2: 5 said Jesus is a man who mediates between God and man.
MARK SURE THOUGHT HE WAS THE SON OF GOD..NOT GOD
Mark 11. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. (Word of God by Mark)
11. And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased. (God)
3: 11. And the unclean spirits, whensoever they beheld him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God. (unclean spirits)
Mark 5: 7. and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not. (demons in man)
9: 7. And there came a cloud overshadowing them: and there came a voice out of the cloud, This is my beloved Son: hear ye him. (God)
14: 61. But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and saith unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62. And Jesus said, I am: (Jesus himself)
15: 39. And when the centurion, who stood by over against him, saw that he so gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. (centurion)
Luke 1: 32. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: (word of God by Luke)
35. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (angel to Mary)
22: 70. And they all said, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. (Jesus)
John 1: 18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Word of God by John)
33. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, he said unto me, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, the same is he that baptizeth in the Holy Ghost.
34. And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.
(John the Baptist as told to him by God of sending the Spirit upon him)
(John saw and bore witness that this is the Son of God; did not say this is God) (Notice also that none of these people had any question of Jesus being God; they were questioning if he were the Son of God. They never at any time thought Jesus was God. It is just not in the Word.)
Thanks to my freidn Jo for some of these scriptures.Learn more here:
http://buildonthetruefoundation.aimoo.com/Jesus….93.html
Dear eveh,
Surely it is very important to God the Father to reveal Jesus as His Son and not as Himself.It is also important to know that you can trust Him, for He is not like a man that lies and needs to repent. I believe that is the message of Numbers 23:19-20
It is important for us to know that the Son is THE ACTUAL SON OF GOD and not just as an ordinary son of Abraham. He is unique …the Father was never a son, Jesus is and always was a son.
It is also important to know that the Son of God laid down His life in heaven to become a humble servant within a flesh and blood body. One who deserved glory and honor, subjected Himself to ridicule and abuse…for you eveh and me and all of us. He subjected Himself to become a man of sorrows. Don't miss the magnitude of this. I don't believe that the Father forced Him to lay down His life to face what He didn't deserve in order to redeem us.
So, yes, Jesus is the SON of God and I ask you again…what is a true son of something. Creation testifies that a true son is another of his kind. That Son became man. He wasn't always a man. He was heavenly and came from heaven to inhabit a body prepared for Him.
It is important to know that He is not the source but He was from the source. Yet, it is important to know that He is the same kind that His Father is, just like creation declares a true son to be…another of the same kind. What kind is the Father???
He had to come as a man and die in order to redeem us and He came willingly, not by force.
I'll bet that you can find verses where the Father refers to Him as God, or apostles refer to Him as God, or John or Thomas. You know how to look up verses. Find the ones that support that He is God to go along with your verses that support that He is the Son of God if you want to search this honestly. They are both in the Bible.
It is easy to understand how He can be both when you understand that the Father is the Most High God and the Son is the only begotten God. They are the same nature but one is totally dependent on the other and the Most High God is dependent on no one.
Blessings,
LU
Hello eveh and Welcome! Kathi's post is right in a sense that Jesus is the Son of God. She does not give any Scriptures to show though that Jesus preexisted His Birth before He became a Human Being.
In Co. 1:15″ He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn overall creation.”
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in Earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or power. All things were created through him and for Him.Rev. 3:14 ….”These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.”
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
verse 2 He was in the beginning with God.
verse 14 And the Word became flesh abd dwelt among us….After Jesus became a Man and was crucified and resurrected He says this in
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the World was.”
Jesus was not only the first creation of God, but He also
was the firstborn of the death.Col, !: 18 And He is the Head of the Body, the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the death, that in all things He may have preeminence. Meaning that He was first in all. The firstborn over all creation and the firstborn of the death.
Jesus is a literal Son of God by creation.
Proverbs 6:22-30 to me it is were David explained in detail, how He became God's Son. Most will say that it is Wisdo
m speaking. However I Don't belief that, because God already had all wisdom and was always Deity and always existed.Proverbs 8:22 ' The LORD possessed Me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. When you see LORD in cpital letters it is always the Father.
verse 23 ” I have been established from everlasting, before there ever was an earth.
verse 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth. When there were no fountains abounding with water.
verse 25 Before the Mountains were settled, Before the Hills, I was brought forth;
verse 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields.
Or the primval dust of the world.
verse 27 When He prepared the heavens I was there. When He drew a circle on the face of the deep.
verse 28 When He established the clouds above. When He strenghtend the fountains of the deep.
verse 29 When He assigned the deep its limits,
So that the waters would not transgress His command. When He marked out the fountains of the earth.
Then I was beside Him.I also want to say this, because some think, like I said, will say that it was wisdom.. Wisdom and patience, Love etc. are all the essence of God the Father. The last verse says
” Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman and I was daily His Delight. Can that be Wisdom, that a person has and possess? I don't think so.
You gave wonderful Scriptures that explains Jesus as a Man. He had Gods Holy Spirit in Him without Measure. Not only that, since He was with the Father as a Spirit being, He knew what was at stake if He would sin. God had to send His only begotten Son into the world, no other Human could do what He did. He was in all things like us, except the Holy Spirit of the Father, He had without measure. We have some of Gods Spirit, but not like Jesus did.
All Human Being have fallen short of the glory of God, and have sinned. John tells us if we believe that we are not sinners, the truth is not in us.
Peace and Love Irene
I just want to add here that, Like Irene, I believe the Son also did exist before creation. However Irene and I disagree about how the Son came into being. Irene thinks that He was created and I think that He was begotten of God, not created.
LU
Kathi! Yiou know that I love you, but the Scriotures say that He was the Firtsborn over all creation. Both in
Col. !:15-17
and in
Rev. 3:14
Where is the Scripture that proves your understamding. You know thast we to prove all things, You have not done that.Irene
Jesus is The Son of God yet possess all the attributes that make God….God. He is also the manifested image of God….was conceived supernaturally. Was to be called immanuel which means God with us….
One of his apostles called him My Lord and My God, yet Jesus did not refute that statement….
I think he's God.
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 30 2009,09:05) Phillipians 2 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
KJV
Thanks Bye
Also let us not forget these passages.Many scripture suggest Jesus was a man, and we believe that because we have proof.
Many scripture also suggests Jesus was God, but we cannot possibly prove that. It is an idea that must be taken with faith.
And why is it so hard to see that Jesus was both Man and God?
Quote (david @ Aug. 30 2009,09:59) Phil 2:6, “Who, being in very nature[a] God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.”
(NIV)“who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, “ (NASB)
“who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, “ (ASV)
NW, RS, NE, TEV, NAB etc convey the same thought.
And, their translations don't conflict with the CONTEXT.
Exactly! Jesus existed in the form of God and for the sake of our salvation He did not consider it something to be grasped. He was God yielding His authority for the benefit of others.David has proven nothing and has shown that he understands nothing.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2009,11:30) Hi R,
Where is GOD THE SON in scripture?
But to the Son the Father says, “Your throne O GOD is forever and ever” (Hebrews 1:8).thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2009,11:36) Hi TT,
So you have two gods?
No, it's the same God different manifestation.Hi R,
So God manifested AS His Son?
But God was in him?Make your mind up.
It is best to agree with what Peter said
” you are the Christ, the son of the Living God”Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2009,12:28) Hi R,
So God manifested AS His Son?
But God was in him?Make your mind up.
It is best to agree with what Peter said
” you are the Christ, the son of the Living God”
The Father didn't manifest himself as The Son.
The Father manifested his WORD as The Son.The Word CAME from The Father, not as a created thing, but as a general function of himself. (Yes God can talk just as we can)
Since The Word is a general function of God, The Word is equally God in essence, yet it is a function of God so it is NOT alone God The Father.
That is like saying, my arm is ME..no my arm is a function of me…yet it is equally as Human as me. lol?
Jesus is God's Word, which is a function of The Father..therefore Jesus is NOT The Father, yet he is equally as God as The Father.
Hi R,
Quite.
And the Father is the God of the Jews[jn8.54]
So the God of Jesus is still the God of those in him and so this trinity nonsense should be dropped.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2009,15:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 31 2009,04:50) Hi eveh Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 30 2009,23:54) It is easy to understand how He can be both when you understand that the Father is the Most High God and the Son is the only begotten God. They are the same nature but one is totally dependent on the other and the Most High God is dependent on no one.
But, it’s not so easy to understand that you have 2 Gods and not one!And it’s not so easy to understand scriptures like these…
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
Did YHWH change his mind?
and…
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and “ THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE”. 1 Cor 8:4
The Apostle Paul forgot to mention anywhere in the 2/3rds of the New Testament of which he penned under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus was a “Begotten God”, in fact that term is exclusive to the NASU in one verse.
To believe there is more than “One True God” of any sort or in any sense, is pure Polytheism!
Either Jesus is “True God” or he is not God at all!
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of “our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus“, Titus 2:13
There was Pauls opportunity to mention “Begotten God”, but it's not there!
Blessings WJ
This type of response is comical, I think. Which would he want me to stop worshipping as God…the Father or the Son? If the answer is neither than what does it all matter?LU
Hi KathiIt matters because you worship “TWO” Gods, “TWO” Divine beings, One Greater and One Lessor!
It also means that your “Image of the Invisible God” is less than who and what God is!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2009,11:36) Hi TT,
So you have two gods?
Do you believe what the Father said about His Son?
One God three persons.thinker
Hi TT,
Now where was that?
If Jesus is your god then who is your Lord?[1Cor8]
Is he really his own son?Nick- If to you the trinity means we believe in three Gods(which is not true) and you say their is only one God(which is true) does your bible quote; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was A GOD?(thats more than one God) Rev. 8 in the King James tells us Jesus is the Almighty. 18:7 Jesus is Lord God Almighty. )13) His name is the word of God (16) He is king of king and Lord of Lords.
Hi KAT,
So for you there are many gods?
Good because you should read 1 Cor 8 and you will see that FOR US there is one Lord and one God.
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