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David said:
Quote Thinker,
you are not living up to you name. And I have lost tons of respect for you.
I have never implied that Christ is not more glorious than Moses in any way, ever. You charged me with that and then I explained I didn't in any way feel that way. Now, you again accuse me of something I have never even hinted at.It is like me saying that YOU are a son to someone and Jesus is the Son of the Father. This doesn't mean I am equating you with the Son of God, does it? Nope! So, please quite trying to argue against something I never stated, nor believe.
Thankyou.
David,
On page 31 on this thread the first post you said this:Quote Paul compared Jesus with Moses. (Heb 3:1-3) How dare he?
What darkness ….
Hey, so did Peter (Acts 3:22)
I have a question for you BOTH.
ACTS 3:22
“In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU.”When Moses said: “a prophet like me,” who was he referring to?
And do you consider this blasphemy?But now you say that you don't compare Jesus and Moses? I think you're feeling the heat and your pride won't allow you to come right out with a retraction. So you deny that you ever put Jesus on the same level with Moses.
Anyway, you have indeed retracted your error and I'll take it anyway I can get it even if I must look like the bad guy. BTW, does you church know you are discoursing with “apostates” like Keith and I? JW's discourage what you are doing because you might be influenced. Apparently you are being influenced because you have backed down from your view that Jesus was no better than Moses. After a while maybe you Keith and I can be a “trinity” here arguing for the biblical Trinity. If converted you would make a darn good apologist.
thinker
Quote (david @ Sep. 06 2009,17:13) Quote If the name “Son” in reference to Jesus is far superior than the name “gods” in reference to angels, then the Son is far superior to Moses who was also called a “god.” This really throws a wrench in David's theological works Thinker.
I am not certain how you got this idea, that I don't think the Son is “far superior” to Moses.
But, since you keep repeating it, as though it is true, I was wondering if you could show me or quote for all of us where I in any way stated that I believe that.
If you cannot do this, then please stop trying to create some kind of false argument against me.
See my post immediately above.thinker
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 06 2009,11:46) Keith, Seeing how you are out-numbered here, and yet you press on…. I wanted to thank you for at least considering all that is being said from so many different directions. Of course we realize that a lot more folks read here than post, so you are most likely not alone (although it appears that way).
Love,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,
Of course Keith is not alone here. What am I? Chopped liver?
thinker
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 06 2009,13:38) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 06 2009,13:07) Mandy……..So the word of GOD delivered you from the false conception of the TRINITY, rejoice GOD saw you intents and gave you understanding of the TRUTH, rejoice and be happy. Rest in the fact HE will guide you in the way of TRUTH by the Spirit (Intellect) of Truth given you Praise GOD and i say rejoice! Sis. IMO peace and love to you and yours Mandy………………..gene
Hey bro,“…the way of truth….”, yes. What is truth? Or shall I rephrase that and ask, “Which truth?”.
I will be guided. You will be guided. Keith is guided. Nick is guided. Jodi is guided. Kathi and Irene are guided……..
Yet we all possess different “truths” by the same Spirit.
Disheartening, to say the least.
Love,
Mandy
Mandy! At least there is ONE truth that several of us agree on, and that is the trinity doctrine. We also believe that Jesus is the Son of God and sits at the right hand of the Father. He became man and died for us. O, OH at least a couple of truths that we are united in. Let me see. Jodi, Gene, Nick, Kathi, David, Marty, t8 and Irene. I don't know what the princess believes in. Did I miss someone? And there are a few that don't believe that the trinity is false. Inspide of all the Scriptures we have shown them. Keith, thinker, the Catholic and I can't think of anyone else, can you. Are they out numbered….
And there are some that only a few understand, like the preexisting of our
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
That is really pretty good. While the outside world believes in the trinity. Here we have unity with some Brethren.
Peace and Love Irene
THINKER MAKES STUFF UP.
Quote David reduces Jesus to the level of Moses. –Non-Thinker, page 46
Thinker, When someone such as yourself lies repeatedly, what purpose does it serve?
Quote But now you say that you don't compare Jesus and Moses? –Non-Thinker, page 47
NO. I said I do not “equate” them, and nowhere can you find me equating the two, yet you repeatedly and falsely accused me of and which you still do, in a somewhat shameful pathetic manner, that is beyond reason.
Quote I think you're feeling the heat and your pride won't allow you to come right out with a retraction. –Non-Thinker, page 47
Show me the quote, my words, where I said anything like Jesus is equal with Moses. I asked you to quote it and you didn't because it doesn't exist. YES, I did compare them in one way, as several Bible writers compared them as well.
TO COMPARE IS NOT TO EQUATE. You do understand this?
Quote So you deny that you ever put Jesus on the same level with Moses. –Non-Thinker, page 47
FIND THE QUOTE WHERE I DID. You won't and can't.
If I call you the son of your father, does that mean I am “equating” you with Jesus? Think about that one for a while.
If we want to know what it means that Jesus is the Son of God, it would help to know what “son” means. And to know what “son” means, we can look at how it is used in the rest of the Bible.
The fact that you are a son of your father, does not mean you are equal to Jesus, the son of God. It just means, you have one thing in common.
COMPARING that one thing is not EQUATING. Nod if you understand this.Quote BTW, does you church know you are discoursing with “apostates” like Keith and I
Oh, you were once a JW? Didn't know that. No, that can't be right. You seem to have no idea what we believe based on the last few days.Quote “Apparently you are being influenced because you have backed down from your view that Jesus was no better than Moses.“ –Liar, (aka, non-thinker), page 47
LYING is wrong. You do understand this, I know you do? Please go run through my posts. Find the post where I said or hinted at anything to the effect that “Jesus was no better than Moses.”
And when you can't find it, I will expect an apology for your slander and lies. (It's not the first or second time that bothered me, but when I corrected you and asked you to find where I said anything like that, and you didn't but continue on with this fabrication, that shows you are unreasonable and makes me question how well you are at thinking.)
Quote (david @ Sep. 06 2009,17:05) “What does “no God” mean to you David? Does it mean there is “no god except” the false god that Pharaoh perceived of Moses?” –WJ (p 38) WJ, are you saying Jehovah made a false god? You also stated:
“No, I am sugesting that Pharaoh acknowledged that Moses was some sort of “a god” who he [Pharaoh] may or may not have worshipped.”–WJ (p 17)
WJ, I don't think Pharaoh worshiped Moses in any way, but you believe he might have.
My question to you:
WHY WOULD “JEHOVAH” have “MADE” a false god for Pharaoh to possibly worship?
Jehovah condemns false gods and he condemns the worship of them, does he not?
david
I'm really wanting a comment on this one.Quote But David and his Arian friends think that “god” in reference to angels and men implies that Christ is no better because He is also called “God.” –Thinker, page 43
Thinker, do you really believe I or the others on this board believe Christ is “no better” than others that are called gods? (As you know, I'm sure, we all believe that Jesus is the second only to his Father, being “given” all authority in heaven and on earth, by his Father. So, he only has his Father above him.
Or, are you purposely misrepresenting what we believe (creating a false argument) so that you can knock it down?Is that not called a straw man?
Quote (david @ Sep. 06 2009,10:08) Quote The key words are “To Pharaoh”, the Polytheist, for Moses was not a God at all or YHWH is contradicting himself. WJ, if you refuse to answer my question, can I change the question a little.
YOU continue to say that “Moses was not a god at all.”
The Bible however has JEHOVAH saying: “I have made you God to Pharaoh,”So, in some sense, (unless Jehovah was wrong, and you are right) Moses was “god to Pharoah.”
All I'm asking is: “What” does that mean?
You keep telling me it's wrong.
This post as well. I'm wondering about.For someone who can talk about the trinity non-stop, Keith has very little to say on this subject, other than saying “It means that to Pharaoh he was “a god” because Pharaoh believed in many gods.” (p 16)
To Pharaoh he was a god–What does this mean?
“It means that to Pharaoh he was “a god”….
Yes, but …what does this mean?
Sure, you go on to answer “why” you think Pharaoh thought him a god or why you think it could be said that Pharaoh perceived him as a god.
But, my question is “what does it mean that Jehovah made Moses god to Pharoah?”
I'm starting to think The thinker didn't like this line of conversation, so he started wildly accusing me of stuff to divert this conversation which I actually care about, with a non-sense conversation where he constantly accuses me of things I truly do not believe. Keith, are you in cahoots with the thinker?
Quote (david @ Sep. 06 2009,10:30) WJ, perhaps, you will understand this, since your avatar is piccard. Some people, feel that the actor William Shatner will always be the “only true Captain” of the enterprise.
(When people say this, they mean that other captains, such as Piccard (don't know his real name) will come and go, but William Shatner will always be the standard to which everyone else is measured. They mean he was the ultimate, the original, the best….
The DO NOT MEAN that every other captain will be a false captain.
WJ, let me ask you this question, and please do answer:If someone said to you: “William Shatner will always be the only true Captain of the Enterprise” how would you understand their comments:
Would they mean:
1. The other captains, although being captains, are “false captains.”
2. William Shatner, the original, the best, the ultimate, the template by which other captains are measured, will never be equaled…he is the ultimate captain, in every sense of the word “captain.”Which of those two thoughts are meant by the statment?
1 or 2?
Obviously, you cannot answer this directly. So, I'll do something interesting. I want you to signal me:
A. Not answering means #2.
B. Answering means #1 or #2, depending on what your answer is.david
Quote (david @ Sep. 06 2009,17:15) What is the GSR. My name keeps coming up with reference to it, and I don't even know what it is.
Grandville Sharp Rule – Google it.Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 06 2009,21:27) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 06 2009,11:46) Keith, Seeing how you are out-numbered here, and yet you press on…. I wanted to thank you for at least considering all that is being said from so many different directions. Of course we realize that a lot more folks read here than post, so you are most likely not alone (although it appears that way).
Love,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,
Of course Keith is not alone here. What am I? Chopped liver? thinker
Naw, you're just one of our resident apes!
Sorry, Thinker…didn't mean to exclude you.
Love,
MandyHi TT,
Your ideas and Keith's are worlds apart.
The only thing you agree on is the catholic dogma of trinity.Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 07 2009,06:22) Quote (david @ Sep. 06 2009,17:15) What is the GSR. My name keeps coming up with reference to it, and I don't even know what it is.
Grandville Sharp Rule – Google it.
Ah, I see.
I don't have to google it, I have a file on it.Quote (david @ Sep. 06 2009,18:25) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 07 2009,06:22) Quote (david @ Sep. 06 2009,17:15) What is the GSR. My name keeps coming up with reference to it, and I don't even know what it is.
Grandville Sharp Rule – Google it.
Ah, I see.
I don't have to google it, I have a file on it.
Hi AllI have been out of town!
But I see David is at it, ranting about the same ole things that I have already responded to like a thousand times and yet he keeps bringing them up.
It seems his whole purpose is just to attack and patronize rather than have intellegent and mature dialogue!
Unless I missunderstand, it seems he is once again at his same ole tricks of misrepresenting my statements and words.
I will try to respond to all of his post, but as usual I think it will be just chasing more of his rabbit trails, and by the way look for him to start plastering this thread with a bunch of Watchtower propaganda.
I fully expect that is his next move and I also expect him to say something about this and that is fine, because I just want the hearers to see that this is what happens with him!
But I have a couple of questions for David to ponder as I began my post.
David do you believe that to YHWH, and Moses and Joshua or Aarron, and the Hebrews that Moses was “a god”?
Or do you believe that Moses was to them “like God“?
Think real hard David before you answer!
WJ
Hi WJ,
You mean lIke Jesus said
” scripture calls men gods”Do you think that might include Jesus?
But you do not think Jesus was the God of the Jews do you?Hi All
On this date [WorshippingJesus,Sep. 05 2009,17:44] I wrote…
“The key words are “To Pharaoh”, the Polytheist, for Moses was not a God at all or YHWH is contradicting himself.
Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
What part of “No God formed” before or after YHWH do you not understand David?
Seriously, are you always this hard headed?“
David’s response was to a one liner out of my post without addressing my points!
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,18:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 05 2009,17:44)
The key words are “To Pharaoh”, the Polytheist, for Moses was not a God at all or YHWH is contradicting himself.
WJ, if you refuse to answer my question, can I change the question a little.YOU continue to say that “Moses was not a god at all.”
The Bible however has JEHOVAH saying: “I have made you God to Pharaoh,”So, in some sense, (unless Jehovah was wrong, and you are right) Moses was “god to Pharoah.”
All I'm asking is: What does that mean?
You keep telling me it's wrong.
I have already explained to David a number of times that “to Pharaoh” a Polytheist YHWH made Moses “a god”. To me that means that “Pharoah believed that Moses was “a god”.But my answer is not good enough for David. I choose not to go outside of scriptures and believe there are any other gods formed and that “there is no god but one”!
And did anyone notice David's sleight of hand when he misquotes the scripture and says…?
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,18:08)
The Bible however has JEHOVAH saying: “I have made you God to Pharaoh,”
David, the scriptures do not say “I have made you God to Pharaoh,”. I noticed you also used the big “G”. That’s not the way it is translated. Wait a minute, I just realized that the NWT translates it that way with a “Big G”. HMMM?You know what I find interesting David? You scolded Jack about comparing Jesus to Moses, but look what your own Bible the NWT does…
1 Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, “I have made you **God** to Pharaoh,” and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet. Ex 7:1 NWT
Now, check out this scripture…
1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and “the Word was **a god**” NWT
Why is that David? Why does your Bible give the big “G” to Moses without the “a God” and then gives us the “a god” for Jesus with the little “g”?
Somehow David cannot accept that scripturally for believers there are no other gods but “One”.
But, David seems to think that because YHWH made Moses “a god to Pharaoh” then that means that Moses must be “a god” or even “a true god”.
However, as in almost all cases the anti-trinitarians choose to have tunnel vision when it comes to the scriptures and not seeing the whole council of God.
I say this because, besides David totally ignoring my scriptural witness above, he changes the subject.
David is also forgetting that even though YHWH made Moses “a god to Pharaoh” that YHWH also blinded Pharaohs heart and hardened him.
Does anyone notice that David has created a smoke screen and completely avoided my Post?
So again, David…
The key words are “To Pharaoh”, the Polytheist, for Moses to YHWH or the Hebrews was not a god at all or YHWH is contradicting himself.
Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
What part of “No God formed” before or after YHWH do you not understand David?
How do you answer this?
WJ
Yours and Kathi's views are also worlds apart though you both deny the trinity.- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
