Proof jesus is god from paul's mouth?

[Not3in1]

Thinker,

One good site to examine the GSR and another opinion (other than yours) is: http://www.truthortradition.com.

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 06 2009,05:19)

Big talk David, but no evidence that the GSR is wrong.

No evidence that it is wrong?  Is there evidence that it is 100% correct?

ev⋅i⋅dence  /ˈɛvɪdəns/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [ev-i-duhns]  Show IPA noun, verb, -denced, -denc⋅ing.
Use evidence in a Sentence
See web results for evidence
See images of evidence
–noun 1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.
2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever.

Bro, there is evidence for BOTH views!  You just choose to believe the one that is most convincing to you (and I make my choice as well).

But to base a belief on the HOPE that your view is 100% correct, is, well, hopeful.

Love,
Mandy

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 05 2009,14:50)

TO KEITH: Keith, I haver been contemplating Hebrews quite a bit lately and I have made an observation which I posted in part earlier today. Hebrews chapter two says that Christ was for a little while made “a little lower than the angels.” This is a quote from Psalm 8 inwhich  the word “elohim” (god) is used. So Christ was made a little lower than “gods” (angels). But chapter one says that in His exaltation He obtained a name that is “so much better than the angels (gods).” For to which of the angels (gods) did He (the Father) ever say, “You are My Son; today I have begotten You.” This means that the name “begotten Son” in reference to Jesus is a name that is FAR SUPERIOR to the name “elohim” (gods) in reference to angels. “To which of the elohim (gods) did He ever say, “You are My Son; today I have begotten You?” If the name “Son” in reference to Jesus is far superior than the name “gods” in reference to angels, then the Son is far superior to Moses who was also called a “god.” This really throws a wrench in David's theological works thinker

Jack

Remember the word “elohim” is not always interpreted as “God”!

The writer of Hebrews did not bring the word “elohim” over as the word “Theos” which is exclusive in the NT to the “One True God” the Father and Jesus and the rare intances of a false god!

The writer purposly uses the word “aggelos” meaning a messenger or invariably in the NT as Angel!

I believe the writer of Hebrew is giving us the true reading of Psalms 8.

Very often we see the writers of the NT taking the liberty to bring out the true interpretation of a verse from the OT.

No angel of God anywhere is called God by the Father, neither is there an example of a servant of the the most high calling Angels of God “Theos”!

Blessing WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 05 2009,15:25)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 06 2009,05:19) Big talk David, but no evidence that the GSR is wrong. No evidence that it is wrong?  Is there evidence that it is 100% correct? ev⋅i⋅dence  /ˈɛvɪdəns/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [ev-i-duhns]  Show IPA noun, verb, -denced, -denc⋅ing. Use evidence in a Sentence See web results for evidence See images of evidence –noun 1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof. 2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever. Bro, there is evidence for BOTH views!  You just choose to believe the one that is most convincing to you (and I make my choice as well). But to base a belief on the HOPE that your view is 100% correct, is, well, hopeful. Love, Mandy

Mandy

The GSR stands true after 200 years of attempts to prove it wrong.

Even so how can you deny the evidence of the Greek word for “appearing” that surronds the verse and is only applied to Jesus in the NT.

It is crystal clear what the Apostle Paul was claiming and IMO those who do not see it that way have simply shut their eyes and ears to the truth!

Maybe you can convince us how the context is speaking of the Father!

Blessing WJ

[Lightenup]

I have no problem believing that Jesus is my great God and Savior and that His great God is His Father and our Father, our Most High God! You can scream “polytheism” all you want but you really do not understand the unity of the Father and the Son then. If they were not united in love and purpose then you can complain about polytheism but they are.

Blessings,
Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2009,15:19)

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 05 2009,14:31) Worshippingjesus said: Quote Big talk David, but no evidence that the GSR is wrong. Keith, I remember a couple of months back David and Kathi both said they had evidence that the GSR is wrong. We're still waiting for the proof. thinker Thinker, I can't recall saying this.  Can you find that? Kathi

Hi Kathi

I think Jack means Mandy and David. I believe it was somewhere in the debates threads!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2009,15:36)

I have no problem believing that Jesus is my great God and Savior and that His great God is His Father and our Father, our Most High God!  You can scream “polytheism” all you want but you really do not understand the unity of the Father and the Son then.  If they were not united in love and purpose then you can complain about polytheism but they are. Blessings, Kathi

Hi Kathi

I understand the unity of the Father and the Son more than you!

For I believe they are the same being. You cannot get any more ONE than that!

Anyway, if you believe there is more than “One divine being” then scripturally that is Polytheism! Sorry!

There is “No God but One” not One and another one!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So Jesus is his own father?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Jesus is the Son of God.

Scripture calls men gods so this smoke and mirrors stuff is wearing rather thin.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,04:13)

Quote “Was Moses a false god?”–david (p 16) “Neither, because Moses was not a god at all!–WJ (p 16) At one point I asked you if Moses was a false god (since he's not God Almighty). You said “Moses was not a god at all.”  But don't you often say that about false gods–that they are not really gods at all?

Paul says…

So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5

Paul says that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“., what does that mean to you David?

Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,04:13)

As far as I can tell, it seems to me, that it seems (see how I'm protecting myself) that you believe that the word “god” means: “The Father/Creator/YHWH/Jesus”

Maybe it seems to you , but you are wrong. I do not believe that “god” means Father/Creator/YHWH/Jesus, but I do believe that “God” only refers to the Father/Creator/YHWH/Jesus!

Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,04:13)

And, so, that being the case, when it is applied to “false gods” you simply reason that the false gods are not really gods at all, because they are not the Creator.

False gods are not gods at all or they wouldn’t be false. Using your own analogy, a tissue is not a Kleenex at all if it is an imitation! If there is only “ONE True God”, then where is there room for other “True gods”?

Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,04:13)

But, the problem arrises when we consider that Moses was a god to Pharoah.  (He wasn't a false god, according to what seems to be your idea of “false gods” who are worshiped by pagans.)

I thought we established that one can believe in a false god and not worship it! Moses would be a false god to every Monotheistic Hebrew, Pharaoh the Polytheist believed he was a god because he did not know there was only “ONE True God”.

Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,04:13)

Nor was he the true God.

Exactly!

Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,04:13)

So, that leaves us in a sticky place. We have Moses, angels, Israelite judges, etc being called gods.

By whom David? YHWH? The Apostles? Followers of Jesus? The heathen? Men? Unbelievers? Polytheist? Henotheist?

“ONE True God”, has no wiggle room for “true gods”, but only for what is not of the “ONE True God”, and that is false!

Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,04:13)

It seems your definition is incorrect. Mine still works in all situations.

My definition is scriptural…

Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”.  Isa 43:10

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Jesus told us God is one.
But you offer several gods.
you know the truth but cannot teach it?

[david]

Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,19:05)

“What does “I have made thee a god to Pharaoh” mean?”–david (p 15) “It means that to Pharaoh he [Moses] was “a god” because Pharaoh believed in many gods.”–WJ (p 16) “I have said before that Moses was made a God to Pharaoh because Pharaoh believed in many gods.”–WJ (Page 35) I now see that you did answer it before on page 16.  Or at least, you answered something.  The reason I kept asking it and the reason you might seem frustrated is because you are answering something, but it is not my question. WHAT does it mean–Moses being made a god to Pharoah?  In what sense was he a god to Pharoah? The question IS NOT “why would Pharoah believe Moses was a god”… That would be a dumb question, because we are told that “Jehovah MADE Moses” a god to Pharoah. You seem to be answering why Pharoah would accept that Moses was a god to him.  I'm asking what it meant.

Hi WJ.

I think you missed this post. I'm wondering if you could answer that question (and not with a “because” answer, since my question is “what” question):

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2009,07:36)

I have no problem believing that Jesus is my great God and Savior and that His great God is His Father and our Father, our Most High God!  You can scream “polytheism” all you want but you really do not understand the unity of the Father and the Son then.  If they were not united in love and purpose then you can complain about polytheism but they are. Blessings, Kathi

You have found a way to reconcile the obvious problem presented to us in scripture. I'm glad that this view works for you. I certainly can see how you have arrived at this conclusion. Following your explainations it makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, following other explainations for other views also make sense. Therein lies the “problem”.

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 06 2009,07:35)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 05 2009,15:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 06 2009,05:19) Big talk David, but no evidence that the GSR is wrong. No evidence that it is wrong?  Is there evidence that it is 100% correct? ev⋅i⋅dence  /ˈɛvɪdəns/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [ev-i-duhns]  Show IPA noun, verb, -denced, -denc⋅ing. Use evidence in a Sentence See web results for evidence See images of evidence –noun 1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof. 2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever. Bro, there is evidence for BOTH views!  You just choose to believe the one that is most convincing to you (and I make my choice as well). But to base a belief on the HOPE that your view is 100% correct, is, well, hopeful. Love, Mandy Mandy The GSR stands true after 200 years of attempts to prove it wrong. Even so how can you deny the evidence of the Greek word for “appearing” that surronds the verse and is only applied to Jesus in the NT. It is crystal clear what the Apostle Paul was claiming and IMO those who do not see it that way have simply shut their eyes and ears to the truth! Maybe you can convince us how the context is speaking of the Father! Blessing WJ

The GSR doesn't stand “true” after all these years, it merely stands as one way to interpret things.

But we tend to see “truth” where we look for it. That is the glory of the dried ink, imo, is that whomever wants to find a particular flavor of truth therein (JW, Mormons, Baptists, Unitarians, Trinitarians…) can find just what they are looking for! It's great, really! Something for everyone.

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 06 2009,07:41)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2009,15:36) I have no problem believing that Jesus is my great God and Savior and that His great God is His Father and our Father, our Most High God!  You can scream “polytheism” all you want but you really do not understand the unity of the Father and the Son then.  If they were not united in love and purpose then you can complain about polytheism but they are. Blessings, Kathi Hi Kathi I understand the unity of the Father and the Son more than you! For I believe they are the same being. You cannot get any more ONE than that! Anyway, if you believe there is more than “One divine being” then scripturally that is Polytheism! Sorry! There is “No God but One” not One and another one! WJ

Can the same “being” have two minds?
Can the same “being” have two wills?
Can the same “being” be both human, and not a human?

{{{shaking head}}}

Love,
Mandy

[david]

Quote

“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13

The Israelites were not to mention the names of the pagan gods—not that they would fail to warn their children about these gods, but they would not mention them with any esteem. (Eph 5:3)

The book of Joshua says exactly the same thing, “not to mention the names” of these pagan gods, but it goes further:

JOSHUA 23:7
“by never going in among these nations, these that remain with YOU. And YOU must not mention the names of their gods [of those nations] nor swear by them, neither must YOU serve them nor bow down to them.”

Of course, the Israelites were to keep their worship clean. Surrounded by nations with pagan gods, they were commanded not to swear to pagan gods, nor bow down to them or serve them.  They only worshiped Jehovah God, so they were not polytheistic, like many pagans who worshiped many gods.

Understandably Jehovah God, as a loving Father, wanted to protect his people, the Israelites, from abominable Baal worship. His Law given through Moses made idolatry an offense worthy of death. (Deut. 13:6-10)

Jehovah God commanded the Israelites to destroy every appendage of false worship and to keep free from alliances with idolaters. (Deut. 7:2-5) He instructed the Israelites not even to “mention the name of other gods,” that is, not to mention them with worshipful regard or in such a way as to credit any existence to them.—Ex. 23:13.

They were to regard such false gods with contempt, as valueless, shameful, detestable and disgusting.—Ps. 96:5; Jer. 11:13; Ezek. 16:36; 37:23.

WJ, I think we agree on all the above.

But my unanswered question has always been the same:

EX 7:1 Jehovah made Moses a god to Pharoah
What does this mean?  What does it tell us about what “god” means?

WJ, of course Moses was not a false god, and nor was he “no god at all” as you keep saying, because clearly, the Bible says he was made a “god to Pharoah.”

So, in some sense, (in the sense and meaning of the word “god”) he was a god to Pharoah.

And no, he wasn't made a God to Pharoah “because Pharaoh believed in many gods.”–WJ (p 16, p 35)

But even if that was true, it's not my question. My question is underlined.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 05 2009,17:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 06 2009,07:41) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2009,15:36) I have no problem believing that Jesus is my great God and Savior and that His great God is His Father and our Father, our Most High God!  You can scream “polytheism” all you want but you really do not understand the unity of the Father and the Son then.  If they were not united in love and purpose then you can complain about polytheism but they are. Blessings, Kathi Hi Kathi I understand the unity of the Father and the Son more than you! For I believe they are the same being. You cannot get any more ONE than that! Anyway, if you believe there is more than “One divine being” then scripturally that is Polytheism! Sorry! There is “No God but One” not One and another one! WJ Can the same “being” have two minds? Can the same “being” have two wills? Can the same “being” be both human, and not a human? {{{shaking head}}} Love, Mandy

Mandy

You are a tripart being! You are a Spirit that has a soul and lives in a body.

God is far more complex than we are.

Does your body want to dictate to you what to do?

Do you have what scriptures call a a New man and an Old man?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,16:53)

Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,19:05) “What does “I have made thee a god to Pharaoh” mean?”–david (p 15) “It means that to Pharaoh he [Moses] was “a god” because Pharaoh believed in many gods.”–WJ (p 16) “I have said before that Moses was made a God to Pharaoh because Pharaoh believed in many gods.”–WJ (Page 35) I now see that you did answer it before on page 16.  Or at least, you answered something.  The reason I kept asking it and the reason you might seem frustrated is because you are answering something, but it is not my question. WHAT does it mean–Moses being made a god to Pharoah?  In what sense was he a god to Pharoah? The question IS NOT “why would Pharoah believe Moses was a god”… That would be a dumb question, because we are told that “Jehovah MADE Moses” a god to Pharoah. You seem to be answering why Pharoah would accept that Moses was a god to him.  I'm asking what it meant. Hi WJ. I think you missed this post.  I'm wondering if you could answer that question (and not with a “because” answer, since my question is  “what” question):

David

I have answered the question over and over but you insist I havn't.

I do not know what Moses was to Pharaoh or in what since he was a god to Pharaoh!

We have no information or insight into Pharaohs head do we?

So pick your own definition. But for me there is only “One True God” and not some “true gods” and some that are neither true nor false.

That definition comes from watchtower.

If there is 'Only One True God” then what is not of that True God is not true but false! That is not hard to understand is it?

WJ

[david]

Quote

I have answered the question over and over but you insist I havn't.

Did you even read my post. I acknowledged that you said you answered it.

Quote

Or at least, you answered something. The reason I kept asking it and the reason you might seem frustrated is because you are answering something, but it is not my question. WHAT does it mean–Moses being made a god to Pharoah? In what sense was he a god to Pharoah? The question IS NOT “why would Pharoah believe Moses was a god”… That would be a dumb question, because we are told that “Jehovah MADE Moses” a god to Pharoah. You seem to be answering why Pharoah would accept that Moses was a god to him. I'm asking what it meant.

[david]

Quote

We have no information or insight into Pharaohs head do we?

I have never asked you what's in Pharaoh's head, although you seem to want to know whether Pharaoh worshiped Moses or not.

I AM INTERESTED IN WHAT IT MEANS THAT “Jehovah” “made” “Moses” a “god” to “Pharoah.”

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