- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 05 2009,11:23) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 05 2009,09:03) Jodi Lee said: Quote Jesus does not have God's powers so that Jesus may use it when, where and how he wants. Jesus uses God's powers to carry out God's plan. Jodi,
Christ does not merely have a derived power from God. He IS the power of God:Quote 22For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the POWER of God and the wisdom of God. (1 corinthians 1:22-24) thinker
True, Jesus is the power of God.But the Father gave him that power.
Jesus told us himself that he can do nothing of himself.
Do you not believe Jesus? Was Jesus just being modest?
Mandy and Irene,Jesus said that he could do nothing of Himself BEFORE all power was given to Him. The “My Father is greater than I” statement does not apply now for in His post-exalted position He is sovereign:
Quote For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom HE WILL. (John 5:21)
and,Quote Matthew 11:27 (New King James Version)
27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son WILLS to reveal Him. (Matthew 11:27)THE SON GIVES LIFE TO AND REVEALS THE FATHER TO WHOM HE WILLS.
“ALL authority” means sovereignty. If a man turns over the family business to his son and takes a leave of absence committing ALL things into his Son's hands, then all the employees of that company are to honor the Son as they would honor his Father.
Jesus said that “ALL things have been committed into My hands.” Therefore, he is “God” to you in the Father's stead. He is the “firstborn” Son which in Hebrew culture meant that He acted in the Father's place.
So whether Christ's authority was derived alone as you all believe or both derived and innate as we believe He is “God” one way or the other.
thinker
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 05 2009,11:29) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 05 2009,06:46) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 05 2009,06:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 05 2009,04:50) Hi Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 04 2009,12:37) There exist NO OTHER where power, wisdom and authority ORIGINATES, anyone with such things RECEIVES them from YHWH, and not only that but they use them according to the will and directions of YHWH!!
Have you forgotten that Paul says in Corinthians that Jesus is not subject to the Father at this time?Jesus is in the throne with all Judgment, authorities and powers subject to him!
And you want to compare him to Moses or some mere prophet?
WJ
But Jesus will turn everything over to the Father so he (the One True God) will be all in all.
Yeah! The Father WILL BE all in all. Until then Jesus is all in all. It is what Jesus is NOW that concerns you. Jesus is not a false God now. Right?thinker
Jesus – a false god? No, no, of course not!He is not a God at all!
He has his own mind (different from the Father), his own will (different from the Father), he has a human body (the Father is not a human).
Agreed. Please note from my post immediately above that He may exercise His will as He sees fit in matters relating to our salvation.thinker
Mandy said:
Quote Jesus would have nothing under him if it wasn't for the Father! This is not the whole truth. The Father exalted Him as a reward for His perfect obedience.
Quote And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, The Father was bound by oath and by justice to exalt Jesus.
thinker
David said:
Quote Paul compared Jesus with Moses. (Heb 3:1-3) David,
Hebrew 3:1-3 does NOT equate Moses with JesusQuote 1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. This clearly says that Jesus has been counted worthy of “more glory” than Moses. He is worthy of the glory of the builder and the builder is God. Therefore, He is counted worthy of glory EQUAL to God.
David said:
Quote ACTS 3:22
“In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU.”
“Like” is relative. It does not imply Moses and Jesus were equal as I have shown above. Your point is lame and out of accord with Hebrews 3:1-3thinker
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,17:42) Quote –We know Moses wasn't a false god, right? (For it was Jehovah that “made” him a God to Pharoah.)
–And here, you suggest “maybe” Jehovah made him a god to Pharoah meaning, “worshiped” by Pharoah.I think we're beginning to build enough evidence that Moses is part of the trinity.
Seriously, that's about all the evidence we would need, isn't it?
The word “god” being applied to Moses twice. He “may” or “may not” have been worshipped by Pharoah (only according to WJ).
We have been over this before. The word “God” as applied to Jesus means much more. He is called the Creator by the Father Himself which Moses was not.Quote 8 But to the Son He says: “ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[a]10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your handsWhere in scripture is the word “god” used of Moses in the way it is used of Christ by the Father Himself?
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 05 2009,17:59) Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,01:49) Quote So while Jesus was like Moses –WJ
What? Did you hear that “The Thinker”?
Hey, didn't The Thinker end his post by saying:
Quote That David would even compare Jesus to Moses reflects the darkness that is in his heart. And didn't someone named WJ respond by saying:
“How true.”Hey, that was you.
hmmm.
Hi DavidYou are still showing the darkness in your heart by making half quotes and then proceeding to misrepresent my words.
Jesus is King of Kings and the creator, and has a kingdom that will never end, who is now seated at the right hand of the Father, all Power and authority subject to him.
Was Moses like that? Jesus is all of what all the OT Prophets Kings or Priests were all rolled up in one!
But you seem to think that Moses was equal to Jesus by your statements!
WJ
Keith,
David has been shown at least three times that Jesus is “counted worthy” of MORE GLORY than Moses (Heb. 3:1-3). Yet he still is disobedient.thinker
Mandy said:
Quote The power that Jesus has now is temporary, for only ONE can be all in all. A man who owns a business takes a leave of absence and temporarily turns everything over to his Son. He commits ALL THINGS into his Son's hands.
What does this mean to the employees of that business? It means that the son is as the father to those employees. What the son will be does not concern them in that moment. Jesus may be subject to the Father again in the future. But it is NOW that concerns you. NOW He is the Father's representative and may do whatever please Him. NOW He is King of kings and Lord of lords.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 05 2009,18:45) Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,02:31) Quote Please David, don't tell us that you hang your doctrine on Moses being “a god” to Pharaoh! Please tell us David that you do not see Moses as Pharaoh saw him! Again, my question which you've managed to ignore for about 13 pages:
HOW did Pharoah see Moses as a god?
What did Pharoah seeing Moses as a god mean?
DavidI am convinced that you hear what you want to hear.
I have said before that Moses was made a God to Pharaoh because Pharaoh believed in many gods.
They practiced the worship of many gods. So when Moses comes in the name of the “I AM” and shows many plagues which Moses claimed as being from the “I Am” Pharaoh percieved that Moses was “a god” because his blind heart didn't believe in the “I Am”.
You have failed to give me an example of YHWH calling any “Angel of God” or man of God, God!
You and t8 say that scriptures show that Angels of God are called God yet where are the examples of this?
Why do you avoid this David? There has to be at least one scripture somewhere that an Angel of God, or a Prophet of God is called God by God!
WJ
Hebrews 1 rhetorically asks, “To which of the angels did he ever say….” Then it proceeds to say that angels were never called “begotten Son.”THE EXPRESSION “BEGOTTEN SON” IN REFERENCE TO JESUS IS A NAME THAT IS ABOVE ANY NAME EVER USED IN REFERENCE TO ANGELS. THEREFORE, THE WORD “ELOHIM” (GOD) IN REFERENCE TO ANGELS IS NOT EQUAL TO THE NAME “BEGOTTEN SON.”
Quote Hebrews 1:4-5 (New King James Version)
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?And again:
“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?Did you see that David? Angels were called “god” but the name “begotten Son” is a name that is far superior to that.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 05 2009,20:13) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 05 2009,11:23) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 05 2009,09:03) Jodi Lee said: Quote Jesus does not have God's powers so that Jesus may use it when, where and how he wants. Jesus uses God's powers to carry out God's plan. Jodi,
Christ does not merely have a derived power from God. He IS the power of God:Quote 22For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the POWER of God and the wisdom of God. (1 corinthians 1:22-24) thinker
True, Jesus is the power of God.But the Father gave him that power.
Jesus told us himself that he can do nothing of himself.
Do you not believe Jesus? Was Jesus just being modest?
Mandy and Irene,Jesus said that he could do nothing of Himself BEFORE all power was given to Him. The “My Father is greater than I” statement does not apply now for in His post-exalted position He is sovereign:
Quote For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom HE WILL. (John 5:21)
and,Quote Matthew 11:27 (New King James Version)
27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son WILLS to reveal Him. (Matthew 11:27)THE SON GIVES LIFE TO AND REVEALS THE FATHER TO WHOM HE WILLS.
“ALL authority” means sovereignty. If a man turns over the family business to his son and takes a leave of absence committing ALL things into his Son's hands, then all the employees of that company are to honor the Son as they would honor his Father.
Jesus said that “ALL things have been committed into My hands.” Therefore, he is “God” to you in the Father's stead. He is the “firstborn” Son which in Hebrew culture meant that He acted in the Father's place.
So whether Christ's authority was derived alone as you all believe or both derived and innate as we believe He is “God” one way or the other.
thinker
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Yes God has exalted Him and has given Him deity and now He can not die eve again. But that does not mean that He is as powerful as His father. When you read in John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.” Why does it say that the Son gives life to us, because He is our perfect Sacrifice, without that we would not have eternal life. And our Sins would not be forgiven.
Ephesians 2″8=9 For by grace you have been saved through
faith and that not of yourselves, it is a free gift from God.
verse 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
verse 10 For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus, for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Without Jesus Sacrifice we could not be forgiven of our Sins and He will come again to be King of Kings and Lord of Lords, to reign a thousand years. When all have been made subject to Him, then He will also be subject to His Father, so a Gods will be all in all.
No my Friend there is no trunty were all are equal with the Father, now or forever . Our Heavenly Father is above all now and forever.
When was Ephesians written before Christ died for us, or after? I believe that Christ had been gone to His Father when Paul wrote the Book of Ephesians. However I cannot prove that. That is IMO. And since God is the same always that makes sense. Your beliefs are somewhat odd to begin with, saying that Christ already returned in A.D.70. No.NO.No.
Peace and Love to you, IreneQuote (thethinker @ Sep. 05 2009,08:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 05 2009,07:43) Hi Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 04 2009,15:19) How exactly do you see that 1 Corinthians 15 shows that Jesus is the One True God?
Because no finite created being could be “infinite” in Power, Authority, Wisdom and Knowledge and Glory unless he is God!By Jesus who is before all things, all things consist, (Col 1:17) and by Jesus all things are upheld by the word of “his” Power! (Heb 1:3)
Little wonder the Father calls him “O God”, (Heb 1:8) and then attributes the entire creation as being the works of Jesus hands. (Heb 1:8)
Just consider what it takes to hold the entire universe together, and to be everywhere at the same time and to hear the prayers and cries of his sheep, and to bear the burdens of any and all that call on him, and to fulfill his promise that “he” Jesus would never leave us or forsake us!
Only “a God” can do that, but since we know that there is only “One True God” taught in scriptures, then we like the Apostle Paul can say…
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, Titus 2:13
WJ
Keith,
Very good post bro! I would add that Christ is Himself the power of God:Quote 22For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the POWER of God and the wisdom of God. (1 corinthians 1:22-24) Note that it says that Christ is a stimbling block to the Jew and that He is foolishness to the Greek. But to those who are called CHRIST IS THE POWER OF GOD!
Since Jodi Lee denies that Christ Himself is God's power then we might classify her as either an unbelieving Jew or a pagan Greek. If she was called of God she would have no problem with what the scriptures declare about Christ.
thinker
I have no problem with what scripture declares about Christ.Scripture says that Jesus RECEIVED the Father's powers and he is shown to receive them so he can do the Father's work with them! Yes God MADE Jesus to be His powers, why wouldn't He, Jesus is His right hand MAN, His SERVANT and His MEDIATOR.
Mt 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Luke 22:69 Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God.” 70 Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?” So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.” 71 And they said, “What further testimony do we need? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth.”
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
It is ALL right there TT, are you going to deny it?
Jesus does NOTHING himself, everything comes from the Father! The Father sent the promised Messiah into the world to declare the Father, so people would learn about the Father and trust in the Father. Those who believe Jesus and his words about the Father receive eternal life. Jesus teaches that he is a MAN who receives ALL things from his Father. Jesus teaches that the Father can make man righteous and perfect in His sight through His Spirit.
The person who the Father sent, was not Himself or His god son, the person sent was the promised Messiah.
The person who received the authority to execute judgment is directly said to BE the Son of Man, not only that but it says that it IS BECAUSE he was the Son of Man, that he received the authority.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 06 2009,03:44) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 05 2009,08:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 05 2009,07:43) Hi Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 04 2009,15:19) How exactly do you see that 1 Corinthians 15 shows that Jesus is the One True God?
Because no finite created being could be “infinite” in Power, Authority, Wisdom and Knowledge and Glory unless he is God!By Jesus who is before all things, all things consist, (Col 1:17) and by Jesus all things are upheld by the word of “his” Power! (Heb 1:3)
Little wonder the Father calls him “O God”, (Heb 1:8) and then attributes the entire creation as being the works of Jesus hands. (Heb 1:8)
Just consider what it takes to hold the entire universe together, and to be everywhere at the same time and to hear the prayers and cries of his sheep, and to bear the burdens of any and all that call on him, and to fulfill his promise that “he” Jesus would never leave us or forsake us!
Only “a God” can do that, but since we know that there is only “One True God” taught in scriptures, then we like the Apostle Paul can say…
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, Titus 2:13
WJ
Keith,
Very good post bro! I would add that Christ is Himself the power of God:Quote 22For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the POWER of God and the wisdom of God. (1 corinthians 1:22-24) Note that it says that Christ is a stimbling block to the Jew and that He is foolishness to the Greek. But to those who are called CHRIST IS THE POWER OF GOD!
Since Jodi Lee denies that Christ Himself is God's power then we might classify her as either an unbelieving Jew or a pagan Greek. If she was called of God she would have no problem with what the scriptures declare about Christ.
thinker
I have no problem with what scripture declares about Christ.Scripture says that Jesus RECEIVED the Father's powers and he is shown to receive them so he can do the Father's work with them! Yes God MADE Jesus to be His powers, why wouldn't He, Jesus is His right hand MAN, His SERVANT and His MEDIATOR.
Mt 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Luke 22:69 Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God.” 70 Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?” So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.” 71 And they said, “What further testimony do we need? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth.”
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
It is ALL right there TT, are you going to deny it?
Jesus does NOTHING himself, everything comes from the Father! The Father sent the promised Messiah into the world to declare the Father, so people would learn about the Father and trust in the Father. Those who believe Jesus and his words about the Father receive eternal life. Jesus teaches that he is a MAN who receives ALL things from his Father. Jesus teaches that the Father can make man righteous and perfect in His sight through His Spirit.
The person who the Father sent, was not Himself or His god son, the person sent was the promised Messiah.
The person who received the authority to execute judgment is directly said to BE the Son of Man, not only that but it says that it IS BECAUSE he was the Son of Man, that he received the authority.
Good post Jodi, however does that make Him equal or greater then God the Father? I don;t think so, do you?
IreneQuote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,03:55) Quote No. Moses was not a god at all. To Pharaoh he was and that’s it.
You're doing that thing again where you say one thing and then a second later, contradict it.Pharaoh was not a god “at all.” “To Pharaoh he was…”
Exactly! So you like Pharaoh believe Moses was “a god”!But, YHWH says…
Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
What do those words mean David. YHWH says “THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED” before or after him!
Is YHWH contradicting himself when he says that he will make Moses a god to Pharaoh?
What does “no God” mean to you David? Does it mean there is “no god except” the false god that Pharaoh perceived of Moses?
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,03:55)
Either he was a god in some way or he wasn't.
Sure, you mean like as a false god!Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,03:55)
But the bible says “Jehovah made” him a god to Pharoah. So he was in fact “a god” to Pharoah.
TO PHARAOH who was a Polytheist! Are you a Polytheist David? Do you believe there are other “true gods”, or do you believe YHWHs and Pauls words when they say…“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
Do you think Moses and Paul believed in other “gods”?
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,03:55)
How can you say he wasn't a god at all, when the Bible specifically says he was a god to Pharoah.
Argue with scriptures for Paul says they are so-called gods. Do you believe these so-called gods are “true gods” David?So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,03:55)
Perhaps what you actually mean is, he wasn't a god, according to your idea of what that word means.Perhaps, it's time to expand your definition of what the word “god” can mean.
Because the Bible is clear: Jehovah made Moses a god to Pharoah.
What and become a Polytheist? Take note everyone, David believes like Pharaoh that Moses was “a god”.Yet YHWH says…
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
WJ
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,04:01) Quote If you want a definition of God then look at 66 books about YHWH and Jesus and you will see who and what God is!
bingo!That's the point I've been trying to make for 15 pages. YOUR definition of the word “[G]god” is “YHWH and Jesus.”
But, if you've been paying attention, Jehovah made Moses a god to Pharoah.
So does that make Moses in your mind a “true god”? Or was YHWH lying when he said…Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
The Hebrew was not permitted to believe in other Gods nor to even speak of them. Yet somehow David you think it is OK to believe that there were other “true gods” and in doing so to take the giant leap that Jesus must be “a god” like the others. But it doesn’t work David because we know that Jesus is “True God” and his followers called him so including the Father.
But you do not have such examples of this anywhere else in the scriptures of any other “so-called gods” do you David?
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,04:01)
Did Jehovah make Moses a “YHWH and Jesus” to Pharoah?No.
Exactly, because there is no other “True God”!Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,04:01)
THE WORD GOD DOES NOT MEAN “YHWH.”
Not in the NWT! But in all other versions the word “God” refers to the” One True God” the Father and Jesus. But, the word “god” refers to all other “so-called” or false gods!Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,04:01)
Nor does the words facial tissue mean “kleenex.”
(It can, and almost always does.)
But that is NOT what “facial tissue” means.Nor is “YHWH” what “god/God” means. That word is applied to many who are not God Almighty.
You mean “so-called gods” or false gods, right David?Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,04:01)
Your definition does not fit. It fits most of the time, but that's only because most of the time, The Father is who it is referring to. (Just like most of the time facial tissue is used, it might be kleenex; or any other genericesed trademark type thing.)
No it is your definition that does not fit, for you it is “false gods”, “The True God” and something in between, HMMM, a demi-god maybe?
WJ
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,04:02) Quote To you it is disputed.
To Mandy, and Me, and millions of others.
Big talk David, but no evidence that the GSR is wrong.So lets look at the context of Titus 2:13 and see who it is talking about!
while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious *APPEARING* (epiphaneia) of our great “God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US” from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Titus 2:13, 14
The Greek word for “appearing” is ‘epiphaneia’ which means;
1) an appearing, appearance
It is translated AV — appearing 5 times, brightness 1 time.
Do you guys have your eyes and ears open, because this is the double whammy.
As you can see in verse 14 Paul continues his sentence by telling us who it is that is going to appear…
Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US”!!!
Is this terminology used of the Father anywhere in scriptures?
First he says he will appear, and we know there are “no” scriptures that say the Father is going to appear, or that the Father is who we are looking for to return.
But to put the nail in the coffin, Paul uses the word “epiphaneia” exclusively for the Lord Jesus Christ return in all the 6 times he used it in the NT.
to keep this command without spot or blame until “THE APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST”, 1 Tim 6:14
but it has now been revealed through “THE APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) OF OUR SAVIOR, CHRIST JESUS”, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim 1:10
In the presence of God and of “CHRIST JESUS, WHO WILL JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD, AND IN VIEW OF HIS APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) AND HIS KINGDOM”, I give you this charge: 2 Tim 4:1
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which “THE LORD, THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE, WILL AWARD TO ME ON THAT DAY–AND NOT ONLY TO ME, BUT ALSO TO ALL WHO HAVE LONGED FOR HIS APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA)”. 2 Tim 4:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom “THE LORD JESUS WILL OVERTHROW WITH THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH AND DESTROY BY THE SPLENDOR (EPIPHANEIA) OF HIS COMING”. 2 Thess 2:8
This scriptural fact together with the Grandville Sharp rule leaves Titus 2:13 unambiguous as to Paul’s confession that Jesus is his Great God and Savior.
Couple that with what Paul wrote In Phil 2 that Jesus was “in very nature God” and that he thought it not robbery to be equal to God the Father, along with this scripture which also fits Grandville Sharps rule…
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our “ONLY MASTER AND LORD, JESUS CHRIST”. Jude 1:4
And another scripture that follows the rule is…
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of “OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST have received a faith as precious as ours: 2 Peter 1:1 Peter who was also a witness of Jesus and Thomas confession claims Jesus as his God and Savior.
Then why is it so hard for you to call Jesus God, since you have no problem calling Moses god?
The NWT calls Jesus “a god” in John 1:1 which is pure Poytheism!
WJ
Worshippingjesus said:
Quote Big talk David, but no evidence that the GSR is wrong. Keith,
I remember a couple of months back David and Kathi both said they had evidence that the GSR is wrong. We're still waiting for the proof.thinker
TO KEITH:
Keith,
I haver been contemplating Hebrews quite a bit lately and I have made an observation which I posted in part earlier today. Hebrews chapter two says that Christ was for a little while made “a little lower than the angels.” This is a quote from Psalm 8 inwhich the word “elohim” (god) is used. So Christ was made a little lower than “gods” (angels).But chapter one says that in His exaltation He obtained a name that is “so much better than the angels (gods).” For to which of the angels (gods) did He (the Father) ever say,
“You are My Son; today I have begotten You.”
This means that the name “begotten Son” in reference to Jesus is a name that is FAR SUPERIOR to the name “elohim” (gods) in reference to angels.
“To which of the elohim (gods) did He ever say, “You are My Son; today I have begotten You?”
If the name “Son” in reference to Jesus is far superior than the name “gods” in reference to angels, then the Son is far superior to Moses who was also called a “god.” This really throws a wrench in David's theological works
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 05 2009,19:31) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 05 2009,03:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 05 2009,19:08) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 05 2009,03:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 05 2009,18:36) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 05 2009,02:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 05 2009,12:03) If he is not at this time subject to the Father then he is equal to the Father. I know this is so hard for the Arians to accept, for it is like a bitter pill.
Keith,What makes you think that Jesus isn't subject to the Father? Didn't the scripture make clear that the Father was not under the Son, but that he put everything/everyone else under him? The Father is excluded from Jesus' current “power” arrangement.
I'm sorry, bro, but that doesn't sound like Jesus is in ANY WAY equal to the Father.
Jesus is standing-in, if you will. He is 'acting' judge (for now).
I do not think of Jesus as a puppet. He is the Son of the Almighty – that's serious stuff!
The bitter pill is for all of us to swallow because these and other topics have been debated to death. Why? Because the bible can be interpreted a thousand ways to Sunday (or Saturday, whichever your brand of Christianity prefers).
I see how you arrive at your understanding. I just don't see it the same way. Thanks, anyway.
Still love you,
Mandy
Hi MandyFor he “has put everything under his feet.”* Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ When he has done this, “**then** the Son himself will be made subject to him” who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.. 1 Cor 15:27, 27
If Jesus is subject now then why would he later be subject when all things are put under his “Jesus” feet?
WJ
Who is “God” in this passage?
Hi MandyThe Father!
And who is God in this Passage…
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, Titus 2:13
Jesus is the one with it all at this time and he is the God of this age and forever more for all those who believe the scriptures!
WJ
Exactly! The Father is God.The Titus passage is disputed, you know this. There are a few (or a couple, at least) different versions of this scripture. Therefore, it is no solid ground to stand on, bro.
The whole tenor of the bible points to the Father as being God.
I'm out. Fight on. I find the debate a weak one, to be perfectly honest. The dried ink is clearly flawed in it's present state. We are arguing over air.
True religion is watching after the orphans and the widows. It's loving your neighbor. It's loving God. And God is who? God is the Father.
Sweetdreams,
Mandy
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 05 2009,03:26)
The Titus passage is disputed, you know this. There are a few (or a couple, at least) different versions of this scripture. Therefore, it is no solid ground to stand on, bro.To you it is disputed. But the GSR and the context is proof that it is unambiguos!
I see I show you scriptures that claim Jesus is God and you cannot accept them? Why am I not surprised?
Good night and Blessings WJ
But the GSR is also debatable! Again, not a very good foundation upon which to build.
Love,
MandyQuote (thethinker @ Sep. 05 2009,14:31) Worshippingjesus said: Quote Big talk David, but no evidence that the GSR is wrong. Keith,
I remember a couple of months back David and Kathi both said they had evidence that the GSR is wrong. We're still waiting for the proof.thinker
Thinker,
I can't recall saying this. Can you find that?
KathiQuote (thethinker @ Sep. 06 2009,06:31) Worshippingjesus said: Quote Big talk David, but no evidence that the GSR is wrong. Keith,
I remember a couple of months back David and Kathi both said they had evidence that the GSR is wrong. We're still waiting for the proof.thinker
Google. Research. It's all there and then some. But you must open your eyes and put down any preconceived notions you have (this is difficult, but not impossible to do).
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
