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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 04 2009,02:27) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 02 2009,21:12) Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2009,12:27) Quote I am sugesting that Pharaoh acknowledged that Moses was some sort of “a god” who he may or may not have worshipped. –WJ
Did Pharoah worship Moses?
Is that why he was called a god to Pharoah?Simple questions.
TO WJ:Don't allow David's nonsense to take you running down some rabbit trail. Moses was NOT seated at the right hand of God. And as seated at God's right hand Christ is “counted worthy” of much more glory than Moses. Jesus is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder and the builder is God. Ergo….
Quote …For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. (Hebrews 3:3-4) There it is! That David would even compare Jesus to Moses reflects the darkness that is in his heart. Jesus is “counted worthy” of glory EQUAL with God!
thinker
Hi JackHow true!
WJ
Paul compared Jesus with Moses. (Heb 3:1-3)How dare he?
What darkness ….
Hey, so did Peter (Acts 3:22)
I have a question for you BOTH.
ACTS 3:22
“In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU.”When Moses said: “a prophet like me,” who was he referring to?
And do you consider this blasphemy?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 04 2009,02:40) Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,22:46) Quote Hi David The answer to your question is in my statement!
“May or may not have worshipped”
How hard is that to understand?
The scriptures do not tell us do they. They simply tell us that YHWH said he would make Moses “A god to Pharaoh”, not to the Hebrews or anyone else because there are no other gods, yet to Pharaoh there was.
I know you said “may” have.
BUT, IF PHAROAH did not “worship” Moses, then guess what? That whole thing about “worship” having to be connected to the idea of the word “god” is thrown out the window, as it should be.
The truth is, the word “god” does not have to involve worship. It often does, because 99.9% of the time, the word “god” is used with reference to the Almighty God who is rightfully to be worshiped.
But, we see here, that in this case, and others, (where Jehovah makes Moses a god to Pharoah) that the word “god” does not have to mean “someone who is worshiped.” (You yourself suggest this, in saying it may or may not involve worship.)
In fact, it doesn't mean that at all. It usually does refer to Jehovah who is to be worshiped, but the word “god” simply means “mighty one.” That idea fits ALL the scriptures where “god” is used.Quote They simply tell us that YHWH said he would make Moses “A god to Pharaoh”, –WJ
MY QUESTION TO YOU, AGAIN, which you are trying your very hardest to avoid, (and understandably) is, what does your statement above, in effect mean?
It CAN'T mean that Moses was worshiped by Pharoah BECAUSE it was God who MADE Moses a god to Pharoah.
So, this is why I keep asking you. You say it “maybe” means that. And then when I point out it can't logically mean that (unless you think Jehovah wanted Moses to be worshiped by a pagan ruler), you go back to your “maybe.”
Well, my question to you then is: How would that be possible? You think that maybe Jehovah wanted Moses to be worshipped? (That is what you think “god” means, isn't it?) So is that what you think, that Jehovah wanted Moses to be worshiped by Pharoah?
–We know Moses wasn't a false god, right? (For it was Jehovah that “made” him a God to Pharoah.)
–And here, you suggest “maybe” Jehovah made him a god to Pharoah meaning, “worshiped” by Pharoah.I think we're beginning to build enough evidence that Moses is part of the trinity.
Or, perhaps, the other explanation: “god” means “mighty one.”
DavidIf I believed as you do I would understand your frustration when it comes to the scriptures.
You should give up your false doctrine which comes from watch tower and accept these simple words of YHWH.
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
WJ
I underlined it for you. I asked it like 5 times. All you can do is make comments about the watchtower or whatever. Why can't you answer the underlined question? What is it about that question that is so troubling? Given that you spend so much thought on the word “god” I know you must have some answer.WJ? Do you really have no answer?
Quote –We know Moses wasn't a false god, right? (For it was Jehovah that “made” him a God to Pharoah.)
–And here, you suggest “maybe” Jehovah made him a god to Pharoah meaning, “worshiped” by Pharoah.I think we're beginning to build enough evidence that Moses is part of the trinity.
Seriously, that's about all the evidence we would need, isn't it?
The word “god” being applied to Moses twice. He “may” or “may not” have been worshipped by Pharoah (only according to WJ).
Quote This is a lie David and is proof that what Jack said about your dark heart may be true! I'm sorry WJ. I thought you believed this.
So, since you don't believe this, you are now suggesting that just because someone is called “god” does not mean there has to be worship invovled?
We are making progress!
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,01:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 04 2009,02:27) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 02 2009,21:12) Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2009,12:27) Quote I am sugesting that Pharaoh acknowledged that Moses was some sort of “a god” who he may or may not have worshipped. –WJ
Did Pharoah worship Moses?
Is that why he was called a god to Pharoah?Simple questions.
TO WJ:Don't allow David's nonsense to take you running down some rabbit trail. Moses was NOT seated at the right hand of God. And as seated at God's right hand Christ is “counted worthy” of much more glory than Moses. Jesus is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder and the builder is God. Ergo….
Quote …For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. (Hebrews 3:3-4) There it is! That David would even compare Jesus to Moses reflects the darkness that is in his heart. Jesus is “counted worthy” of glory EQUAL with God!
thinker
Hi JackHow true!
WJ
Paul compared Jesus with Moses. (Heb 3:1-3)How dare he?
What darkness ….
Hey, so did Peter (Acts 3:22)
I have a question for you BOTH.
ACTS 3:22
“In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU.”When Moses said: “a prophet like me,” who was he referring to?
And do you consider this blasphemy?
Hi DavidJesus was a Prophet for sure like Moses, but he is much more for the builder of the house is worthy of more glory.
So while Jesus was like Moses he was also, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and it was by him and for him that all things were created.
So your point is?
WJ
Quote There are plenty false gods that are not worshipped which are “not gods at all” but merely made by men! If they are not worshipped, WJ, in what sense are they a “god” (or falsely believed to be a god)?
What do you think?
I think, they are called gods, because they are thought to have power, thought to be mighty.
I have thought that you always considered godship somehow connected with worship.
(You use the false idea that Jesus is worshiped to somehow prove that he is The God VERY often. Maybe that's how I got that idea. I don't know.)Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,01:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 04 2009,02:40) Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,22:46) Quote Hi David The answer to your question is in my statement!
“May or may not have worshipped”
How hard is that to understand?
The scriptures do not tell us do they. They simply tell us that YHWH said he would make Moses “A god to Pharaoh”, not to the Hebrews or anyone else because there are no other gods, yet to Pharaoh there was.
I know you said “may” have.
BUT, IF PHAROAH did not “worship” Moses, then guess what? That whole thing about “worship” having to be connected to the idea of the word “god” is thrown out the window, as it should be.
The truth is, the word “god” does not have to involve worship. It often does, because 99.9% of the time, the word “god” is used with reference to the Almighty God who is rightfully to be worshiped.
But, we see here, that in this case, and others, (where Jehovah makes Moses a god to Pharoah) that the word “god” does not have to mean “someone who is worshiped.” (You yourself suggest this, in saying it may or may not involve worship.)
In fact, it doesn't mean that at all. It usually does refer to Jehovah who is to be worshiped, but the word “god” simply means “mighty one.” That idea fits ALL the scriptures where “god” is used.Quote They simply tell us that YHWH said he would make Moses “A god to Pharaoh”, –WJ
MY QUESTION TO YOU, AGAIN, which you are trying your very hardest to avoid, (and understandably) is, what does your statement above, in effect mean?
It CAN'T mean that Moses was worshiped by Pharoah BECAUSE it was God who MADE Moses a god to Pharoah.
So, this is why I keep asking you. You say it “maybe” means that. And then when I point out it can't logically mean that (unless you think Jehovah wanted Moses to be worshiped by a pagan ruler), you go back to your “maybe.”
Well, my question to you then is: How would that be possible? You think that maybe Jehovah wanted Moses to be worshipped? (That is what you think “god” means, isn't it?) So is that what you think, that Jehovah wanted Moses to be worshiped by Pharoah?
–We know Moses wasn't a false god, right? (For it was Jehovah that “made” him a God to Pharoah.)
–And here, you suggest “maybe” Jehovah made him a god to Pharoah meaning, “worshiped” by Pharoah.I think we're beginning to build enough evidence that Moses is part of the trinity.
Or, perhaps, the other explanation: “god” means “mighty one.”
DavidIf I believed as you do I would understand your frustration when it comes to the scriptures.
You should give up your false doctrine which comes from watch tower and accept these simple words of YHWH.
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
WJ
I underlined it for you. I asked it like 5 times. All you can do is make comments about the watchtower or whatever. Why can't you answer the underlined question? What is it about that question that is so troubling? Given that you spend so much thought on the word “god” I know you must have some answer.WJ? Do you really have no answer?
Hi DavidI have answered you question already, so go back and look.
You have just put plugs in your ears!
WJ
Quote So while Jesus was like Moses –WJ
What? Did you hear that “The Thinker”?
Hey, didn't The Thinker end his post by saying:
Quote That David would even compare Jesus to Moses reflects the darkness that is in his heart. And didn't someone named WJ respond by saying:
“How true.”Hey, that was you.
hmmm.
Quote Hi David I have answered you question already, so go back and look.
You have just put plugs in your ears!
No, you DEFINITELY DID NOT!
and please don't say you did. If so, where? Maybe we're thinking of different questions. I underlined it for you:
Quote MY QUESTION TO YOU, AGAIN, which you are trying your very hardest to avoid, (and understandably) is, what does your statement above, in effect mean? Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,01:44) Quote This is a lie David and is proof that what Jack said about your dark heart may be true! I'm sorry WJ. I thought you believed this.
So, since you don't believe this, you are now suggesting that just because someone is called “god” does not mean there has to be worship invovled?
We are making progress!
Hi DavidI am glad you have figured it out, that there are fo “other gods” but only so-called gods made by men!
Hopefully you will obey YHWHs words and not mention that there are other gods especially “true gods”.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 04 2009,02:48) David Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,23:21) (WJ thinks that the word “god” must involve worship.)
This is a lie David and is proof that what Jack said about your dark heart may be true!Where have I ever said this David? There are plenty false gods that are not worshipped which are “not gods at all” but merely made by men!
I do not believe there are other gods to worship because I do not beleive there are other gods period! So how can I believe what you say?
As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship as we have shown you that both the Father and Jesus was worshipped in the scriptures.
I believe there is “One True God” and that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to the scriptures!
You do not understand this nor do you care to, so you have to lie amd misrepresent me?
WJ
(BOLD ADDED)
OK, I found this post. Was this your answer?I did also find you saying this:
As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,01:47) Quote There are plenty false gods that are not worshipped which are “not gods at all” but merely made by men! If they are not worshipped, WJ, in what sense are they a “god” (or falsely believed to be a god)?
What do you think?
I think, they are called gods, because they are thought to have power, thought to be mighty.
I have thought that you always considered godship somehow connected with worship.
(You use the false idea that Jesus is worshiped to somehow prove that he is The God VERY often. Maybe that's how I got that idea. I don't know.)
Hi DavidI thought you were bright enough to know that what men worship and call gods are not gods at all, therfore they are false.
Now as far as Jesus, he is called God and the Angels are commanded to worship him by the father and we also find many cases in scripture where the Son is being worshipped the same way Jesus said to worship the Father, same word “Proskeneo”.
WJ
Either Jesus is lying when He says the the Father is greater then the I or He is.
John 14:28 There is only One True Almighty God and Father of all who is above all, and through all, and in us all.
Ephesians 4:6
And if you don't belief that when Hebrew and john says that the Son is called God, and is a title, that is your problem, I believe this and the trinity is a false doctrine and made by men
1Corinth. 11:3 The head of every man is Christ, and every woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Math. 15:9″ But in vain do they worship Me, teaching the doctrine the commandment of men.Every one who believes in the trinity worships in vain, because that doctrine was made by Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian, in around A.d. 193
Come out of Her my people it says in Revelation.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 04 2009,02:48) David Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,23:21) (WJ thinks that the word “god” must involve worship.)
This is a lie David and is proof that what Jack said about your dark heart may be true!Where have I ever said this David? There are plenty false gods that are not worshipped which are “not gods at all” but merely made by men!
I do not believe there are other gods to worship because I do not beleive there are other gods period! So how can I believe what you say?
As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship as we have shown you that both the Father and Jesus was worshipped in the scriptures.
I believe there is “One True God” and that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to the scriptures!
You do not understand this nor do you care to, so you have to lie amd misrepresent me?
WJ
I said:
“WJ thinks that the word “god” must involve worship.”You quoted me saying it and then said that it was a “lie” and then accused me of having a dark heart because of it.
But look at the top post of this page. In it YOU say:
As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship
That is EXACTLY what I said you believed. EXACTLY.
I said:“WJ thinks that the word “god” must involve worship.”–david
You said:
“As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship”–WJ
I wonder how I would get the idea that you think that in your mind, the word “god” always involves worship?
hmmm.
So, it wasn't a “lie” as you accused me of. Further, it is therefore your hear that is dark. Also, I'm not sure, but I think I sort of apologized for misrepresenting you. I did not misrepresent what you said.
david
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,01:49) Quote So while Jesus was like Moses –WJ
What? Did you hear that “The Thinker”?
Hey, didn't The Thinker end his post by saying:
Quote That David would even compare Jesus to Moses reflects the darkness that is in his heart. And didn't someone named WJ respond by saying:
“How true.”Hey, that was you.
hmmm.
Hi DavidYou are still showing the darkness in your heart by making half quotes and then proceeding to misrepresent my words.
Jesus is King of Kings and the creator, and has a kingdom that will never end, who is now seated at the right hand of the Father, all Power and authority subject to him.
Was Moses like that? Jesus is all of what all the OT Prophets Kings or Priests were all rolled up in one!
But you seem to think that Moses was equal to Jesus by your statements!
WJ
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,01:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 04 2009,02:48) David Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,23:21) (WJ thinks that the word “god” must involve worship.)
This is a lie David and is proof that what Jack said about your dark heart may be true!Where have I ever said this David? There are plenty false gods that are not worshipped which are “not gods at all” but merely made by men!
I do not believe there are other gods to worship because I do not beleive there are other gods period! So how can I believe what you say?
As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship as we have shown you that both the Father and Jesus was worshipped in the scriptures.
I believe there is “One True God” and that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to the scriptures!
You do not understand this nor do you care to, so you have to lie amd misrepresent me?
WJ
OK, I found this post. Was this your answer?I did also find you saying this:
As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship
DavidSee, there you go again with the half quotes and misrepresentation of my words.
You do this a lot. I see you doing it with CA.
It is disigenuous and rude and even sinful in my opinion!
WJ
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,01:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 04 2009,02:48) David Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,23:21) (WJ thinks that the word “god” must involve worship.)
This is a lie David and is proof that what Jack said about your dark heart may be true!Where have I ever said this David? There are plenty false gods that are not worshipped which are “not gods at all” but merely made by men!
I do not believe there are other gods to worship because I do not beleive there are other gods period! So how can I believe what you say?
As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship as we have shown you that both the Father and Jesus was worshipped in the scriptures.
I believe there is “One True God” and that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to the scriptures!
You do not understand this nor do you care to, so you have to lie amd misrepresent me?
WJ
I said:
“WJ thinks that the word “god” must involve worship.”You quoted me saying it and then said that it was a “lie” and then accused me of having a dark heart because of it.
But look at the top post of this page. In it YOU say:
As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship
That is EXACTLY what I said you believed. EXACTLY.
I said:“WJ thinks that the word “god” must involve worship.”–david
You said:
“As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship”–WJ
I wonder how I would get the idea that you think that in your mind, the word “god” always involves worship?
hmmm.
So, it wasn't a “lie” as you accused me of. Further, it is therefore your hear that is dark. Also, I'm not sure, but I think I sort of apologized for misrepresenting you. I did not misrepresent what you said.
david
Hi DavidThats right. Because you see the little “g” in the word god!
The discussion was about Moses being “a god” and the words you spoke of me were false!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 05 2009,17:54) Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,01:47) Quote There are plenty false gods that are not worshipped which are “not gods at all” but merely made by men! If they are not worshipped, WJ, in what sense are they a “god” (or falsely believed to be a god)?
What do you think?
I think, they are called gods, because they are thought to have power, thought to be mighty.
I have thought that you always considered godship somehow connected with worship.
(You use the false idea that Jesus is worshiped to somehow prove that he is The God VERY often. Maybe that's how I got that idea. I don't know.)
Hi DavidI thought you were bright enough to know that what men worship and call gods are not gods at all, therfore they are false.
Now as far as Jesus, he is called God and the Angels are commanded to worship him by the father and we also find many cases in scripture where the Son is being worshipped the same way Jesus said to worship the Father, same word “Proskeneo”.
WJ
OK, let me re-phrase: WHY ARE THEY “CALLED” GODS?Is it because they are worshipped?
Or is it because they are THOUGHT to be powerful ones?I am no longer sure what you believe on the first question, as you completely contradicted yourself earlier and then accused me of lying.
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,01:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 04 2009,02:48) David Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,23:21) (WJ thinks that the word “god” must involve worship.)
This is a lie David and is proof that what Jack said about your dark heart may be true!Where have I ever said this David? There are plenty false gods that are not worshipped which are “not gods at all” but merely made by men!
I do not believe there are other gods to worship because I do not beleive there are other gods period! So how can I believe what you say?
As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship as we have shown you that both the Father and Jesus was worshipped in the scriptures.
I believe there is “One True God” and that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to the scriptures!
You do not understand this nor do you care to, so you have to lie amd misrepresent me?
WJ
I said:
“WJ thinks that the word “god” must involve worship.”You quoted me saying it and then said that it was a “lie” and then accused me of having a dark heart because of it.
But look at the top post of this page. In it YOU say:
As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship
That is EXACTLY what I said you believed. EXACTLY.
I said:“WJ thinks that the word “god” must involve worship.”–david
You said:
“As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship”–WJ
I wonder how I would get the idea that you think that in your mind, the word “god” always involves worship?
hmmm.
So, it wasn't a “lie” as you accused me of. Further, it is therefore your hear that is dark. Also, I'm not sure, but I think I sort of apologized for misrepresenting you. I did not misrepresent what you said.
david
Hi DavidWhy do you insist on using a half quote for your malicious post!
Why do you not use my entire quote David?
Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,02:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 05 2009,17:54) Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2009,01:47) Quote There are plenty false gods that are not worshipped which are “not gods at all” but merely made by men! If they are not worshipped, WJ, in what sense are they a “god” (or falsely believed to be a god)?
What do you think?
I think, they are called gods, because they are thought to have power, thought to be mighty.
I have thought that you always considered godship somehow connected with worship.
(You use the false idea that Jesus is worshiped to somehow prove that he is The God VERY often. Maybe that's how I got that idea. I don't know.)
Hi DavidI thought you were bright enough to know that what men worship and call gods are not gods at all, therfore they are false.
Now as far as Jesus, he is called God and the Angels are commanded to worship him by the father and we also find many cases in scripture where the Son is being worshipped the same way Jesus said to worship the Father, same word “Proskeneo”.
WJ
OK, let me re-phrase: WHY ARE THEY “CALLED” GODS?Is it because they are worshipped?
Or is it because they are THOUGHT to be powerful ones?I am no longer sure what you believe on the first question, as you completely contradicted yourself earlier and then accused me of lying.
DavidPaul said..
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
Yet Jesus is called God.
So deal with it, Jesus is God, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit found in the whole council of God!
WJ
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