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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2009,12:29) Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,20:20) EXODUS 7:1
“Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.”“I [Jehovah] have made you [Moses] god to Pharoah.”
It was Jehovah who made Moses a god to Pharoah.
Are you suggesting that Jehovah wanted Pharoah to worship Moses?
Or, is my explanatin better: That the word “god” means “mighty one” and that Jehovah gave Moses power over Pharoah?
Hi DavidOf course God gave Moses power over Pharaoh, but that doesn't mean that is the definition of God!
God gave Moses power over his followers, but where do you see any of them calling him “God”?
Where does your definition of “God” come from David?
WJ
Excellent example of avoiding the questions. Of course I didn't say that 'Jehovah gaving Moses power over Pharoah' is the definition of God.
If you check the scriptures, “mighty/powerful one” seems to fit every single scripture.Back to the questions you avoided for a second time:
“I [Jehovah] have made you [Moses] god to Pharoah.”
It was Jehovah who made Moses a god to Pharoah.
Are you suggesting that Jehovah wanted Pharoah to worship Moses?
Quote Hi David The answer to your question is in my statement!
“May or may not have worshipped”
How hard is that to understand?
The scriptures do not tell us do they. They simply tell us that YHWH said he would make Moses “A god to Pharaoh”, not to the Hebrews or anyone else because there are no other gods, yet to Pharaoh there was.
I know you said “may” have.
BUT, IF PHAROAH did not “worship” Moses, then guess what? That whole thing about “worship” having to be connected to the idea of the word “god” is thrown out the window, as it should be.
The truth is, the word “god” does not have to involve worship. It often does, because 99.9% of the time, the word “god” is used with reference to the Almighty God who is rightfully to be worshiped.
But, we see here, that in this case, and others, (where Jehovah makes Moses a god to Pharoah) that the word “god” does not have to mean “someone who is worshiped.” (You yourself suggest this, in saying it may or may not involve worship.)
In fact, it doesn't mean that at all. It usually does refer to Jehovah who is to be worshiped, but the word “god” simply means “mighty one.” That idea fits ALL the scriptures where “god” is used.Quote They simply tell us that YHWH said he would make Moses “A god to Pharaoh”, –WJ
MY QUESTION TO YOU, AGAIN, which you are trying your very hardest to avoid, (and understandably) is, what does your statement above, in effect mean?
It CAN'T mean that Moses was worshiped by Pharoah BECAUSE it was God who MADE Moses a god to Pharoah.
So, this is why I keep asking you. You say it “maybe” means that. And then when I point out it can't logically mean that (unless you think Jehovah wanted Moses to be worshiped by a pagan ruler), you go back to your “maybe.”
Well, my question to you then is: How would that be possible? You think that maybe Jehovah wanted Moses to be worshipped? (That is what you think “god” means, isn't it?) So is that what you think, that Jehovah wanted Moses to be worshiped by Pharoah?
–We know Moses wasn't a false god, right? (For it was Jehovah that “made” him a God to Pharoah.)
–And here, you suggest “maybe” Jehovah made him a god to Pharoah meaning, “worshiped” by Pharoah.I think we're beginning to build enough evidence that Moses is part of the trinity.
Or, perhaps, the other explanation: “god” means “mighty one.”
Quote Don't allow David's nonsense to take you running down some rabbit trail. Moses was NOT seated at the right hand of God. And as seated at God's right hand Christ is “counted worthy” of much more glory than Moses. Jesus is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder and the builder is God. Ergo…. –the thinker.
Have you really thought that through?
I nowhere said anything about Moses being seated at God's right hand. Yes, Christ is, and Yes, Christ has more authority than Moses.
What does that have to do with ANYTHING I said?
“The Thinker” we are discussing the meaning of the word “god” and what it means and how it is applied to Moses and what that tells us about that word. Moses WAS “made” a god to Pharoah BY JEHOVAH. This is what the Bible says. My question is simply this:
What does it mean. Can you answer that, “the thinker?”
Does it mean, as WJ suggests, that maybe or maybe not, Pharoah worshipped Moses? (WJ thinks that the word “god” must involve worship.)
But of course, Jehovah did not want Pharoah to worship Moses and so “make” Moses “god” to Pharoah. Or do you think Jehovah wanted that?
I think, after thinking about this for more than a while, that Jehovah made Moses “god” (Mighty one) to Pharoah, in that he gave Moses power over him.
Just as the angels are called gods in relation to humans and just as human Israelite judges were called gods in relation to the average person and just as Satan is a god to the world, so too, Moses was god to Pharoah, a “mighty one” relatively speaking.
To believe otherwise is to believe….what? That is my question. What is the alternative? Can you answer this?
Quote That David would even compare Jesus to Moses reflects the darkness that is in his heart. Jesus is “counted worthy” of glory EQUAL with God! Please!!!
I never suggest this. You know that is a false argument, because you have no real one and cannot even attempt to answer the question I ask. It's really sad when people resort to things like that.We are discussing the word “god.” Jesus is only called “God” like a few more times than Moses, who is called “god” to Pharoah and “god” to Aaron.
Quote “Facial tissue” David says. Give me a break! David should blush at this analogy. –the thinker.
I don't think you understand my analogy.
You do know everyone calls all brands of facial tissue as 'kleenex' don't you?
Let me simplify this:
When people use one word (such as “god”) that means many things (it's used with reference to many individuals/angels,Satan,human juges, Moses, Jesus, etc) to describe one specific thing (The Father) over and over and over again, people start to think that that word (god) means (The Father).Since the word “god” is used 99.9% of the time with reference to the Creator, people start to think that the word “god” means: “The one who created everything” or “the one who should be worshiped.”
The other 0.1% of the uses of that word indicate it does not mean that. In fact, they contradict that idea.
OK, let me try to explain this using jello…..:p
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 02 2009,21:12) Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2009,12:27) Quote I am sugesting that Pharaoh acknowledged that Moses was some sort of “a god” who he may or may not have worshipped. –WJ
Did Pharoah worship Moses?
Is that why he was called a god to Pharoah?Simple questions.
TO WJ:Don't allow David's nonsense to take you running down some rabbit trail. Moses was NOT seated at the right hand of God. And as seated at God's right hand Christ is “counted worthy” of much more glory than Moses. Jesus is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder and the builder is God. Ergo….
Quote …For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. (Hebrews 3:3-4) There it is! That David would even compare Jesus to Moses reflects the darkness that is in his heart. Jesus is “counted worthy” of glory EQUAL with God!
thinker
Hi JackHow true!
WJ
Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,22:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2009,12:29) Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,20:20) EXODUS 7:1
“Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.”“I [Jehovah] have made you [Moses] god to Pharoah.”
It was Jehovah who made Moses a god to Pharoah.
Are you suggesting that Jehovah wanted Pharoah to worship Moses?
Or, is my explanatin better: That the word “god” means “mighty one” and that Jehovah gave Moses power over Pharoah?
Hi DavidOf course God gave Moses power over Pharaoh, but that doesn't mean that is the definition of God!
God gave Moses power over his followers, but where do you see any of them calling him “God”?
Where does your definition of “God” come from David?
WJ
Excellent example of avoiding the questions. Of course I didn't say that 'Jehovah gaving Moses power over Pharoah' is the definition of God.
If you check the scriptures, “mighty/powerful one” seems to fit every single scripture.Back to the questions you avoided for a second time:
“I [Jehovah] have made you [Moses] god to Pharoah.”
It was Jehovah who made Moses a god to Pharoah.
Are you suggesting that Jehovah wanted Pharoah to worship Moses?
Hi DavidQuote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,22:36) Are you suggesting that Jehovah wanted Pharoah to worship Moses?
Do you have a comprehension problem or are you just stopping your ears?No, David I am not suggesting anything!
This is just the way you do in everything David. You can't help it, you have to read into everything.
Why can't you accept what I said?
Is it the same reason you cannot accept YHWHs words….
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
WJ
Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,22:46) Quote Hi David The answer to your question is in my statement!
“May or may not have worshipped”
How hard is that to understand?
The scriptures do not tell us do they. They simply tell us that YHWH said he would make Moses “A god to Pharaoh”, not to the Hebrews or anyone else because there are no other gods, yet to Pharaoh there was.
I know you said “may” have.
BUT, IF PHAROAH did not “worship” Moses, then guess what? That whole thing about “worship” having to be connected to the idea of the word “god” is thrown out the window, as it should be.
The truth is, the word “god” does not have to involve worship. It often does, because 99.9% of the time, the word “god” is used with reference to the Almighty God who is rightfully to be worshiped.
But, we see here, that in this case, and others, (where Jehovah makes Moses a god to Pharoah) that the word “god” does not have to mean “someone who is worshiped.” (You yourself suggest this, in saying it may or may not involve worship.)
In fact, it doesn't mean that at all. It usually does refer to Jehovah who is to be worshiped, but the word “god” simply means “mighty one.” That idea fits ALL the scriptures where “god” is used.Quote They simply tell us that YHWH said he would make Moses “A god to Pharaoh”, –WJ
MY QUESTION TO YOU, AGAIN, which you are trying your very hardest to avoid, (and understandably) is, what does your statement above, in effect mean?
It CAN'T mean that Moses was worshiped by Pharoah BECAUSE it was God who MADE Moses a god to Pharoah.
So, this is why I keep asking you. You say it “maybe” means that. And then when I point out it can't logically mean that (unless you think Jehovah wanted Moses to be worshiped by a pagan ruler), you go back to your “maybe.”
Well, my question to you then is: How would that be possible? You think that maybe Jehovah wanted Moses to be worshipped? (That is what you think “god” means, isn't it?) So is that what you think, that Jehovah wanted Moses to be worshiped by Pharoah?
–We know Moses wasn't a false god, right? (For it was Jehovah that “made” him a God to Pharoah.)
–And here, you suggest “maybe” Jehovah made him a god to Pharoah meaning, “worshiped” by Pharoah.I think we're beginning to build enough evidence that Moses is part of the trinity.
Or, perhaps, the other explanation: “god” means “mighty one.”
DavidIf I believed as you do I would understand your frustration when it comes to the scriptures.
You should give up your false doctrine which comes from watch tower and accept these simple words of YHWH.
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
WJ
David
Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,23:21) (WJ thinks that the word “god” must involve worship.)
This is a lie David and is proof that what Jack said about your dark heart may be true!Where have I ever said this David? There are plenty false gods that are not worshipped which are “not gods at all” but merely made by men!
I do not believe there are other gods to worship because I do not beleive there are other gods period! So how can I believe what you say?
As far as the word “God”, yes I believe it must involve worship as we have shown you that both the Father and Jesus was worshipped in the scriptures.
I believe there is “One True God” and that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to the scriptures!
You do not understand this nor do you care to, so you have to lie amd misrepresent me?
WJ
Hi David
Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,23:21) Just as the angels are called gods in relation to humans and just as human Israelite judges were called gods in relation to the average person and just as Satan is a god to the world, so too, Moses was god to Pharoah, a “mighty one” relatively speaking.
You keep regurgitating this “Watchtower” propaganda.Please show us David where an “Angel of God” is called God!
Unless you want to say “Jesus' was an Angel of God and he is called God!
WJ
David
Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,23:33) The other 0.1% of the uses of that word indicate it does not mean that. In fact, they contradict that idea.
And in every case of the 0.1% they were all false and not gods at all, except for one, and that is Jesus!God never called Moses God, but he did call Jesus God, and so did his Apostles! No such example of Moses.
Please David, don't tell us that you hang your doctrine on Moses being “a god” to Pharaoh! Please tell us David that you do not see Moses as Pharaoh saw him!
WJ
David said:
Quote The Thinker” we are discussing the meaning of the word “god” and what it means and how it is applied to Moses and what that tells us about that word. Moses WAS “made” a god to Pharoah BY JEHOVAH. This is what the Bible says No Sir! We are discussing the meaning of the word “god” and how it applies to Christ. You are trying to prove that the word as it refers to Christ carries with it no greater meaning then it did in reference to Moses. When did the Father say to Moses, “Your throne “O God” and then qualify this with “YOU Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of YOUR hands.”
When did the Father say that Moses was the Creator? It is clear that the word “god” in reference to Jesus carries much more meaning then you can bear. When pushed you anti-trinitarians will give lip service to Christ's exaltation and the fact that He has a name that is above every name. But you always revert back to reducing Him to the level of all other men.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 03 2009,11:27) David said: Quote The Thinker” we are discussing the meaning of the word “god” and what it means and how it is applied to Moses and what that tells us about that word. Moses WAS “made” a god to Pharoah BY JEHOVAH. This is what the Bible says No Sir! We are discussing the meaning of the word “god” and how it applies to Christ. You are trying to prove that the word as it refers to Christ carries with it no greater meaning then it did in reference to Moses. When did the Father say to Moses, “Your throne “O God” and then qualify this with “YOU Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of YOUR hands.”
When did the Father say that Moses was the Creator? It is clear that the word “god” in reference to Jesus carries much more meaning then you can bear. When pushed you anti-trinitarians will give lip service to Christ's exaltation and the fact that He has a name that is above every name. But you always revert back to reducing Him to the level of all other men.
thinker
Hi JackVery true!
WJ
Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2009,11:10) –There is only ONE God that humans should worship.
–The Bible acknowledges that there are many gods. (1 cor 8:5)
–Knowing that there are many gods does not make a person polytheistic.
–There is only one true God to be worshiped.
–The New Testament was written in the common Greek but it was written by Hebrews. The Hebrew word of god is derived from the root meaning mighty one and this can be applied to many situations.
–For example the God of the Hebrews YHWH (in English best known as Jehovah) appointed Moses as god to Pharaoh. (Ex 4:16; 7:1) What does “I have made thee a god to Pharaoh” mean? Was Moses a false god? Or does the word “god” have an actual meaning?And that's the question no one will answer: Was Moses a false god?
Or, can we take the correct understanding of the use of the word “god.”?
Exactly David!Mighty One as the definition of god fits perfectly, especially with the use of YHWH being referred to as the MOST High God!
Ps 78:35 Then they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.
Ps 78:56 Yet they tested and provoked the Most High God, And did not keep His testimonies,
Ps 107:11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, And despised the counsel of the Most High,
Da 4:2 I thought it good to declare the signs and wonders that the Most High God has worked for me.
Da 5:18 O king, the Most High God gave Nebuchadnezzar your father a kingdom and majesty, glory and honor.
Da 5:21 Then he was driven from the sons of men, his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild donkeys. They fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till he knew that the Most High God rules in the kingdom of men, and appoints over it whomever He chooses.
Anyone referred to as a god or mighty one, has powers only because they were given to them by the Most High Mighty One. There exists ONLY ONE Person of whom ALL power, wisdom and authority comes, there is only ONE source, that source is YHWH. Jesus was a mighty one because he received ALL things from YHWH.
Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2009,12:20) EXODUS 7:1
“Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.”“I [Jehovah] have made you [Moses] god to Pharoah.”
It was Jehovah who made Moses a god to Pharoah.
Are you suggesting that Jehovah wanted Pharoah to worship Moses?
Or, is my explanatin better: That the word “god” means “mighty one” and that Jehovah gave Moses power over Pharoah?
and Jesus did nothing of himself, everything came FROM the Father, the Father made Jesus a god unto us, as He did with Moses to Pharoah, they were both MADE mighty ones!!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2009,12:22) Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,20:16) Quote No, I am sugesting that Pharaoh acknowledged that Moses was some sort of “a god” who he may or may not have worshipped. OK, I want to be really clear on this. You (WJ) are saying that Pharoah “may” have worshipped Moses as “a god”
??Is that what you are saying?
Hi DavidNo, I am saying it doesn't make any difference, because in believing in other gods he was a Polytheist, and YHWH said that he (Moses) would be a god “to Pharaoh“, not that he was “a god”!
How clear is it David. Where is the example of Moses being called “a god” by his followers like Joshua or Aaron?
WJ
WOW, you just don't get it?Exodus 7:1 So the Lord said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
YHWH made Moses a god by giving Moses His POWERS!
YHWH made Moses a mighty one!
Moses would be a god unto Pharaoh because he would actually perform works coming directly from the Most High God.
The Pharaoh would see Moses indeed as a mighty one, but he also knew that Moses answered to an even Higher Mighty One.
Ex 8:25 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, “Go, sacrifice to your God in the land.”
Ex 9:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh and tell him, 'Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews: “Let My people go, that they may serve Me.
Ex 10:3 So Moses and Aaron came in to Pharaoh and said to him, “Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before Me? Let My people go, that they may serve Me.
Ex 10:7 Then Pharaoh's servants said to him, “How long shall this man be a snare to us? Let the men go, that they may serve the Lord their God. Do you not yet know that Egypt is destroyed?”
Ex 10:16 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste, and said, “I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you.
The Pharaoh saw Moses as the mighty one receiving powers from the MOST High Mighty One.
WJ, was the Pharaoh believing in a FALSE mighty one, did Moses NOT perform signs and wonders? Do the scriptures lie, or do you just fail to understand the word god?
There are two Scriptures that tell us that Jesus was called God.
Hebrew 1:8-9 But to the Son He said:” Your Throne O God is forever and ever, A scepter of righteousness is a scepter of Your kingdom, You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness:
Therefore God Your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness more then Your companions.”John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God, and the Word was with God….
verse 2 He was in the beginning with God.
verse 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.However it is not that Jesus is the Almighty God, that title belongs to our Heavenly Father only. Also the Father is greater then I, Jesus said in John 14:28
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.”The way I see the word God is that it is a title and many have been called God, even Satan is called
God of this earth. Since We are the Sons of God we also can look at God as a Family Name. We are the Children of God the God Family. That is why I find it so easy to understand.Peace and Love Irene
Jodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 03 2009,13:03)
WOW, you just don't get it?Exodus 7:1 So the Lord said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
YHWH made Moses a god by giving Moses His POWERS!
No, you just don’t get it. Moses was “a god” to Pharaoh and that is it!Wow, and you think that Moses had “Powers”? Are you the same one that says that “Jesus’ didn’t do anything on his own? Where is the scripture that says “Moses powers” opened the Red Sea? No Moses was a man like you and I and was simply a servant called by YHWH to carry out his will! I see where you guys are coming from now, you see Moses just like Pharaoh did, as some sort of “a god”!
Polytheism!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 03 2009,13:03) WJ, was the Pharaoh believing in a FALSE mighty one,
Yep, because Moses wasn’t “a god” at all, and YHWH nor any of his followers said he was, did they? But in your mind and in the mind of Pharaoh apparently he was!Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 03 2009,13:03) did Moses NOT perform signs and wonders?
Nope, YHWH performed them, Moses was the servant of YHWH!Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 03 2009,13:03) Do the scriptures lie, or do you just fail to understand the word god?
I might ask you the same thing?What part of YHWH’s words do you not believe?
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
WJ
Hi all
To all the Polytheist that believe there are “Other True gods”, here is only a few scriptures that deny there are any other gods.
Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Duet 5:7
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was **no God formed**, neither shall there be after me. Isa 43:10
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: Isa 45:5
WJ
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