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Quote (before Time @ Jan. 26 2009,13:04) Greeting RS/sam RS You pointed out there is no correlation linking the end time, and resurrection. In my last post I offered a clear connection. It places them in the same time frame; the destruction of the temple in AD 70.
You also referenced the text in Rev. 13:5-8 to establish the end time in our future. The question is who are, or was, the beast, and when was Revelation penned. My answer on same could only be addressed if these points are understood from the preterist concept.
I posted a thread on the “Beast of Revelation” if you care to look; it presents the preterist view as I understand it so far. Keep in mind it may not necessarily be mine.
As for your dream, I hunted for a scripture to no avail. Perhaps someone else could help.
Sam before tackling your post I want to make clear I’m presenting Covenant Eschatology, “A branch of theology that is concerned with such things as death Judgment and the ultimate destiny of human kind.” As I said to RS the full preterist view is not necessarily what I believe. But scriptures are pointing me in their direction!
Full preterism is declared in Christian camps as heretical “Characterized by departure from excepted beliefs or standards.” These encampments are the partial preterist and broad-spectrum of the Christian community.
Good stuff Sam on Revelation 20 which use to be mine a long time ago. Wow it was a long time now that I think of it! Let me take you back to 1975!
I was Jehovah Witness in Aqueduct Racetrack in Brooklyn New York with my kids in 1975 waiting for the advent of Christ. My paradigm taught by the JW organization led me to believe it was the time prophesied by our Lord. The second advent of Christ had arrived!
They never did take responsibility for leading members to a false notion. This wasn’t the first time this was predicted by them. The justification was the light gets brighter! Tell me that and I’ll tell you another one!
I said all that to say this. They were not the only group falsely predicting the Lords coming. People have stood on rooftops in the past doing same. You’re not alone! All this they get from the symbolic book John penned over 2000 years ago while on the Island of Patmos. Never even considering John was writing to real people in His lifetime with factual citations to help them through their trials.
If we imagine we have tribulations, let us put ourselves in Christian sandals being stoned by the Jews and burned alive by the Romans under orders by the beast of Revelation Nero.
You’re up guys
God bless
Greetings BT……It is always a pleasure to meet up with a fellow Brooklynite…..We must never forget the duality and redundancy in scripture….The application of the olivet prophesy is as real today as it was when Rome was dealing with a Helenistic culture that the jews of that time had taken on….The destruction of the temple,persecution and wars have been replete through history…..When Jesus taught us to pray he outlined in the Lords prayer specifically that we should seek and anticipate Gods' kingdom to come…We have reached a point in time where man now has the ability to destroy life as we know it…..God will not let that happen and as a result the return of Jesus is iminent….Thr symbolizm used in revelation is designed to confuse the wise and the learned…..it is the children that will gain understanding….The term beast instills fear in the heart of a child and with that fear one seeks God….and his wisdom which he gives graciously upon request….Greetings Brothers
It has been difficult for me to argue this matter when I have not known the exact thing, ie which version of preterism we are talking about, and I am not good at second guessing or moving targets. This being said, I think enough has now been discussed to establish that the peterists got it wrong, and their often revised views are due to the fact that much of Mat 24 applies to BOTH the end of the Law era and the end of THE system of things, but with certain exceptions. And I think these certain things have been well demon-straighted here. (sorry – bad joke!)
I have met or read of many Christians who as far as eschatology is concerned have trouble with the GAPS, for it seems to most that there have always been gaps in God's timeframe and they want to hurry things up. Yes, I pray for the end to come soon, for like theodorej I grieve and mourn constantly about the human condition. But for my part, like Daniel who was wiser than I am, I do not have a problem with the perceived gaps. It is not what I want but what God wants, for only he knows fully what he is doing.
The preterists claimed that we living on the earth now after armageddon et al, are in a time when the church must purify itself before God will receive us. But there is no scripture supporting this, no, not even one. Besides, that would not be loving and presents too many doctrinal impasses, as we now realise.
So here i sign off
May the undeserved kindness of our Lord be with you
RS
Greetings Sam
Your comment…..When Jesus does come with His army of Angels to “tread the wine press of the fierce wrath of God the Almighty,” the entire world will know it. Then, as the Scripture recounts, “then all the tribes of the earth will mourn.” (Matthew 24:30) I see no record of this event happening in 70CE.
Matt 24:30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. NIV
If you observed Sam the translators of the NIV added Nations while in the interlinear it’s just not there. The Kings James in this verse brings life to its meaning.
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. KJV
The word earth has a verity of meanings. This is brought out by “Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary” It could very well be “land” as a replacement for earth which I believe it is. The land spoken of is the “land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found”.
NT:1093 ge (ghay); contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe
KJV – country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth (land) shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. KJV
Luke 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. KJV
You said (Matthew 24:30) “I see no record of this event happening in 70CE.”
To state I didn’t see an incident doesn’t mean it didn’t take place in history. The Bible gives enough verification it happened long ago previous to our existence. I find it extraordinary there was no recording in scripture after 70 AD unless one supposes the false notion Revelation was written in the 90’s. If so how come John pens no recollection regarding such an essential episode?
Looking forward to your response!
God Bless
before time wrote:
Quote Your comment…..When Jesus does come with His army of Angels to “tread the wine press of the fierce wrath of God the Almighty,” the entire world will know it. Then, as the Scripture recounts, “then all the tribes of the earth will mourn.” (Matthew 24:30) I see no record of this event happening in 70CE. It says that “all the tribes of the land” would mourn, that is, the tribes of the land of Israel. This certainly did happen in AD70.
thinker
Greeting RS
Many people give up effortlessly thinking they can encourage with double meanings without scriptural proof. “For many folks, a conclusion is simply the place where they got tired of thinking.”
I believe “When adding double meaning to the New Testament it has no meaning at all.”
You said……The preterists claimed that we living on the earth now after armageddon et al, are in a time when the church must purify itself before God will receive us. But there is no scripture supporting this, no, not even one. Besides, that would not be loving and presents too many doctrinal impasses, as we now realise.
I have the same opinion there is no scriptural support! Can you cut and paste where you got this from, never heard the concept from them before. Nevertheless, not all preterist or any other grouping think totally the same! Oops. I forgot you jumped ship. Just joking! Thanks for joining in we enjoyed you company!
Do you believe God will only accept us after the 1000 year reign? If so it sounds kind of contradictory and not loving.
God Bless
To All Contributors… Greetings!
Throughout our discussion of Preterist interpretation of Scriptural events, it appears to me that the topic fails to reach any satisfying conclusion. This reminds me of those that support the Trinity Doctrine in that they hold tightly to their belief and all Scriptural evidence refuting that belief is flatly rejected.
With the Preterist view, there is at least evidence that much of what happened in 70CE can be linked to events of that time. However, I believe there’s an important question that should be asked of those believing that view due to Scriptural history and God’s dealings with humanity. First, though, let’s consider what Jesus and the Apostles had to say:
Matthew 24:38-39 (New American Standard Bible)
“For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.”Jude 1:7 (New American Standard Bible)
“…just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire“.In these examples we see that God does not turn His back on evildoers nor does He refrain from dispensing retribution and judgment against them. God does not change.
From my viewpoint, I see everything that God has acted against throughout history as being actively practiced world-wide today. Has God decided to just let it continue and no longer involve Himself in earth’s affairs? My question, then: Exactly what view do the Preterist have of our current world situation in light of God‘s past dealings?
I await your response! God bless!
Greetings Samual and BT
You sly old dog BT (LOL), using my own vanity against me to lure me back into the arguement like that – OK, I'm Guilty!
However, I agree with Sam on all things in this matter. I read what the many preterists believe about our age now in a synopsis on a page on another site, for I can find nothing about such a thing in my three Bibles. So, if you are a preterist of a particular type, what do you believe is the status of this age (lost tribes of Christ perhaps), and what is your reference of authority.
May the undeserved kindness of our Lord be with you
RS
Greeting Sam and perhaps RS if he took the bait! Nevertheless, although he picks on this old dog, deep inside he likes me.
Sam said…..From my viewpoint, I see everything that God has acted against throughout history as being actively practiced world-wide today. Has God decided to just let it continue and no longer involve Himself in earth’s affairs? My question, then: Exactly what view do the Preterist have of our current world situation in light of God‘s past dealings?
RS said…. However, I agree with Sam on all things in this matter. I read what the many preterists believe about our age now in a synopsis on a page on another site, for I can find nothing about such a thing in my three Bibles. So, if you are a preterist of a particular type, what do you believe is the status of this age (lost tribes of Christ perhaps), and what is your reference of authority.
I’ll have to tackle these tomorrow guys, kind of tired today.
God Bless
Greeting Sam / RS
I apologize for the delay! Sam said and RS agreed with him…..From my viewpoint, I see everything that God has acted against throughout history as being actively practiced world-wide today.
There’s not doubt we learned from the first century Jewish dispensation. Jesus came then, chosen by God. Even though history repeats itself it doesn’t change the fact He was communicating to the Jewish people.
I took liberty to reference some time statement “THIS GENERATION”
Take each one, one at time and note if its our world – wide history or the contemporary listeners? There is an obvious clearness to these connotations. Matt 11:16 Matt 12:41;2:42 ;3:36 ;4:34 Mark 8:12;13:30 Luke 7:31 Luke 11:30 ;1:31,32,50,11:51 ;17:25 ;21:32
Let’s place things in perspective. People in no way change, but conversely the environment does. For instance when reading Revelation chapter 19 the war is fought with horses and swords; today its guided bombs and airplanes combat.
The beast within man shows its true nature at the opportune time. I remember many eons ago when the lights went out in New York City. People took advantage of the situation and invaded every store they could their hands on. This proved a very important fact; the only thing restraining many folks is fear of prison.
I said all that to say this! God never stopped acting upon human affairs. Nonetheless, when Jesus sent out the 70 to preach the Kingdom of God were they preaching things concerning our day, or regarding theirs?
Luke 10:9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you. Luke 10:11'Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.'
Looking forward to your thoughts
God Bless
Hi Samual And BT
I hear what you are saying BT, and although I will probably be bombarded by all the scripture lawyers around here for saying this, the Apostles and deciples could say 'The kingdom of God is near you' and the like in all honesty because it would be established when the Lord died. At that point it existed and all authorities became subject to him. The next thing to happen was Satan and his angels were cast down to the earth to do their worst until the time of the nations was complete. And we are still in it.
Here are some relevant scriptures:
who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
1 Peter 3:22 (ESV)“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Luke 10:18 (ESV)They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luke 21:24 (ESV)Notice Luke 21:24 says among all nations, not just the roman empire. And Jerusalem has been trampled throughout all the ages since, even though the jews were effectively gone for some 1900 years. Think of the crusades, the muslems and such. Now we see ourselves that jews returned to Jerusalem in the years coming up to 1948 and after. But it is not solely in the hands of the jews legally for there is a sharing arrangement in place, not to mention the latest trampling with Hesbalah's rockets. Many make a big toodoo about the return of the jews, and there is something there but I know not what precisely. So we'll leave it alone if you dont mind. For I would only be talking with partial knowledge through a hole in my hat.
May the undeserved kindness of our Lord be with you
RS
BT/RS… Greetings!
And around and Round we go!
All Scriptures and history considered, there is truth in both views without much doubt. However, the evidence points to a continuation of God’s Kingdom on Earth (the Globe) and does not end with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE.
One Scripture that I have made reference to before must be considered as proof of this fact:
Matthew 21:43 (New American Standard Bible)
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”As this verse states: “the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you” signifies that the “you” were the Israelite Nation (the Jews) who lost out as earthly representatives of the Kingdom of God. Of this there can be no doubt. The events of 70CE was the climax, the end of the Jewish favored position with God. But a new Nation took up where the old ended. See what Peter said:
1 Peter 2:9-10 (New American Standard Bible)
“But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.”This new “Holy Nation” came into existence at this time and took up the position as God’s Kingdom representatives on earth. This “Holy Nation” consisted of both Jew and Gentile (“you once were not a people“) as the above Scripture presents.
Also Paul outlines for us the multinational makeup of this “Holy Nation“ which is the “New Jerusalem“:
Romans 2:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)
“For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.”That Jerusalem was no longer representative of God’s Holy Nation Jesus made clear in this Scripture:
John 4:19-21 (New American Standard Bible)
“The woman said to Him, ‘Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.’ Jesus said to her, ‘Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.’”In short, the Kingdom of God moved on from 70CE. Only the Jewish Nation lost out; the New Jerusalem now consisted of both Jew and Gentile and has existed near two thousand years, albeit, seems about as contaminated as was old Jerusalem with its twisted doctrines and practices. And just as the Jews of 70CE paid dearly for their actions against God, Jesus pointed out the future judgment for those rebels of New Jerusalem:
Matthew 25:32-34 (New American Standard Bible)
“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left… Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels… .’”“All the nations” were not gathered before Him in 70CE. For the above reasons I see into the future and am not stuck in the past.
I await your response. God Bless!
Greeting Sam and perhaps RS who jumped ship! If you’re reading this thanks for the participation, feel free to come home!
Sam your commentary concerning the continuing Kingdom on earth from the conclusion of the Old Covenant till the present time appears scripturally accurate. The kingdom was taken from the Jewish Nation and given to a Nation bearing fruit.
The New Testament carries with it a transition from the Old Covenant to the New. This misunderstanding, concept, is a one reason debates go round and round as you said. We could be taking from opposite sides of the fence and yet be on the same land.
Christ initiated the New Covenant while kicking of the termination of the Old Covenant at the cross.
Heb 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. NASU
Compare
A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. John 16:21
I wait your thoughts
God Bless
BT/RS… Greetings!
Correct me if I am wrong, BT, but are you agreeing that the Scriptures and at least some prophecies within extend past 70CE? If so, then we can now move on to other topics and dig deeper into the Word of God.
I tend to side with RS on this note. As I’ve mentioned before, many folks have their own ideas as to what the Scriptures tell; therefore, nothing will alter their view, especially if the Spirit blocks them. John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13. As Paul points out:
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (New American Standard Bible)
“…and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”Of course, that’s why we exchange ideas, to sort out distortions in order to expose what is true. Quite obviously, this is no small task.
As it stands, I think it time to drop off this topic for now and move on. I am fairly certain it will arise again in the future.
God bless!
Greetings Sam/RS
“None of us get up at daybreak thinking what false doctrine can I come up with today.” Covenant Eschatology in my estimation is not a salvation issue. We hashed it out and I enjoyed our debate, even though everything you said was wrong. Just kidding! You brought up some good points and gave me the opportunity to defend the preterist view, and by doing so learned as a bible student. Now that where familiar with it we can consider the parables of Christ more closely when reading them.
You brought up 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 judging the Preterist void of the Spirit of God. I on the other hand learned immensely from them and will by “no means read the New Testament as before.” Many folks like their comfort zone and by doing so get locked into their paradigm. The intention of our discussion was to learn and defend truth from God’s word as we see it. “Unless we are willing to be wrong we’ll l never get it right.”
I’ll leave you with the last word and scripture “About the Nations” and look forward to another topic. If someone is reading this and would like the subject of preterism to persist feel free to do so.
God Bless
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