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Rabsheka… Greetings!
I knew a little of what you wrote, but not all that much. Thank you for the update.
It appears, then, that we have to now consider when “nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom” fits into a timeframe in history. Nations have been battling each other for world supremacy since nations existed, as I see it. However, we do know that Jesus was speaking about events yet future from His prophetic discourse with the Apostles. I couldn’t begin to list the wars fought from the first century until today, but I am certain there were many.
Now in verse 9 “you” will be delivered “to tribulation, and (they) will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My Name” comes into play. When Jesus says “you” He must not be speaking of the Jews, but the Apostles. This point is further strengthened by the reason for this hatred… “on account of My name.”
The obvious question, then: Was this tribulation brought against the early Christians by Rome? Or did this tribulation extend down to our present day? It appears quite apparent that many Christian Believers withdrew from the faith (“many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another” verse 10) could easily apply to that time. Then, in verse 13, we see “But the one that endures to the end, he shall be saved.” Saved from what? The “end?” The end of what?
According to verse 14, “the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all nations, and then the end will come.”
Nothing ended in 70CE but the Jewish system of things. No one was saved that I have heard about, so I have to conclude this passage refers to a future time, the time when Jesus actually takes control of this world and removes these nations (“ten kings”) as Revelation 19:11-21 portrays. As for those “saved” at that time, I suspect that true Christians are presently scattered all over the world and are indeed hated by the Nations wherein they find themselves. Actually, Jesus follows up on the tribulation of this time by saying that He “will send forth His angels… and they will gather together His elect (or chosen ones) from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.” (Matthew 24:29-31)
All that considered, then, the “end” remains ahead of us. That being said, so is the period of “great tribulation” (Revelation 7:9,14) awaiting this world yet ahead. As I see it, of course.
I await your comments. God Bless!
Greetings Sam / Rabsheka
Peace prevail in the Roman Empire when Christ gave his dialogue in Matthew 24 called the Pax Romana. A good encyclopedia will make available information about it.
“Earthquakes – We know that earthquakes happen all the time, all over the world. Josephus reports many earthquakes in A.D. 68 in the midst of the Jewish War. Tacitus reports them throughout Rome, also interpreting them as portents of impending divine judgment (Histories, 1.2-3)”
Luke 15:14 reports a great Famine throughout the country
The time text in verse 6, 7 says “You will hear” of wars earth quakes and famine. We could take the words of Josephus or Tacitus who lived in the first century, but the words of Christ we can be sure of. There is no hesitation, intermission in the chapter. The Lord said they would experience these events and they did.
There are many believers today not understanding the gravity of AD 70. But the fact is Christians who paid attention to the words of Christ and left Dodge City before its downfall were saved. Luke 21:20 It's an excellent inspiration we do the same.
Optimistic thoughts on AD 70! The onslaught of Christians by the Roman armies, their cohorts and Jews I believe ended. Furthermore, no more would a Jewish Christian think to convert a Gentile to be a Jew first before adding a branch to the growing Olive tree. And so the Lords Message was planted into the entire world.
I believe you’re up Sam / Rabsheka
God Bless
BT… Greetings!
There is very little doubt that Luke 21:10-24 applied to 70CE. As I have mentioned before, and acknowledge again, First Century Israelites paid dearly for their sins against God Almighty. This point was driven home by Jesus when He detailed what would occur and why in the Parable of the Landowner. (Matthew 21:33-41)
That being said, Jesus took us further into the future when He followed up with these words:
Luke 21:25-27 (New American Standard Bible)
“There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.”Do you have evidence that there were “signs in sun and moon and stars” during 70CE and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Army? And what record is there that there was “dismay among the nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and waves” during this time? And in verse 35 we see that these events were to “come upon all those who dwell on the face of all of the earth.” Jerusalem could hardly be considered “all of the earth.”
Connected to the time of the end is the Scriptures recorded for us at Revelation 19:11-21. (This comes under the heading of “The Coming of Christ” and shows Jesus and “the armies of heaven” waging war against “the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies.”) How is it that this event can be limited to the First Century?
I await your thoughts.
God bless!
Greetings Samuel & BT
Yes indeed, I fully agree with your last posts and cracks are also appearing in the preterist doctrine already. This is why Preterism began to fracture and produce sub-preterisms. But back to Mat 24:
Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
Matt 24:9-11 (ASV)Again, I believe this part of the prophacy relates to both the time of the apostles and the great tribulation yet to come. The first to be delivered up after our Lord was Stephen, Followed by James. Then Caligula (40AD>) unleashed a pogrom upon all Chistians and Jews during his time. It is interesting to note that this particular nutcase who considered himself God even gave the order to have his statue placed in the temple. But here is the clincher. If he had done so, then you could asert that he was indeed the beast who sat himself in the holy place. However, as it was not the “time”, one of his generals convinced him not to.
Again, verses 10 and 11 to me are minor and major fulfilments. After 70AD (no more temple), apart from the uprisings, the rabbies were sore indeed and began to take their loss out on the Christian Jews who did not need a temple of bricks to maintain their faith. And they did indeed give Christians up to the romans. This reached it's peak with the Emperor Domitian who had hungry lions and circuses to keep his people quiet. Immediately after this, enter Constantine to save the day (LOL) and thus came to an end the early tribulation, until we get to “the inquisitions”.
There were many false prophets in the 1st century, as the epistles of Paul so plainly say, among the first being the nicolations. And these did stumble many. Paul had to keep doing his circuit and write letters in an effort to eliminate these influences. However, the scripture says “all the nations for my name's sake”, not just the eastern mediteranean. If he had seen the false prophets of the middle ages, and worse, today, he would not have known where to start first – but we know he would have.
Continue in joy
Quote It appears, then, that we have to now consider when “nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom” The Bible tells us:
“For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 ALL THESE THINGS ARE A BEGINNING OF PANGS OF DISTRESS.In the same chapter, we are also told that the conclusion of the system of things would be like the DAYS of Noah. That was a long period of time.
While this was going on, something else would be going on that would take time:
Quote According to verse 14, “the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all nations, and then the end will come.” As you say, there have always been wars. But Jesus was talking about something on a larger scale. While there have always been wars, there have not always been WORLD wars. That was something quite new. And many historians look back on that time as a pivotal change in history.
“The last completely ‘normal’ year in history was 1913, the year before World War I began.”—Editorial in the Times-Herald, Washington, D.C., March 13, 1949.
“Looking back from the vantage point of the present we see clearly today that the outbreak of World War I ushered in a twentieth-century ‘Time of Troubles’—in the expressive term of the British historian Arnold Toynbee—from which our civilization has by no means yet emerged. Directly or indirectly all the convulsions of the last half century stem back to 1914.”—The Fall of the Dynasties: The Collapse of the Old Order (New York, 1963), Edmond Taylor, p. 16.
“Half a century has gone by, yet the mark that the tragedy of the Great War [World War I, which started in 1914] left on the body and soul of the nations has not faded . . . The physical and moral magnitude of this ordeal was such that nothing left was the same as before. Society in its entirety: systems of government, national borders, laws, armed forces, interstate relations, but also ideologies, family life, fortunes, positions, personal relations—everything was changed from top to bottom. . . . Humanity finally lost its balance, never to recover it to this day.”—General Charles de Gaulle, speaking in 1968 (Le Monde, Nov. 12, 1968, p. 9).
**
No previous war in history compared with it. It was so different that historians of that time called it The Great War.
Of it, an encyclopedia states: “World War I took the lives of twice as many men as all major wars from 1790 to 1913 put together.” It noted that total military casualties were over 37,000,000, and added: “The number of civilian deaths in areas of actual war totaled about 5,000,000. Starvation, disease, and exposure accounted for about 80 of every 100 of these civilian deaths. Spanish influenza, which some persons blamed on the war, caused tens of millions of other deaths.–The World Book Encyclopedia, 1966, Vol. 20, p. 377.Luke's account also adds “pestilence” as one thing that would be happening. War, food shortages worldwide, pestilences. Those things were THE BEGINNING of pangs of distress.
Greeting Sam
What were doing Sam is jumping ahead of the discourse and by doing so breaking the flow. Nevertheless, this is fine with me. In order to comprehend Luke 21:25-27 it’s helpful going back to the Old Testament looking for like manner phrases. This way we can appreciate the way the Lords audience understood them, since they carried the sacred writing.
“The Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory”
“Yahweh is often represented as riding on a cloud, especially when he comes for purposes of vengeance or punishment:” Jehovah didn’t literally ride on a cloud but it signified his presents. Isa 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.The essence of the following brings out an significant point in this discussion. In Isaiah Jehovah is pictured riding on a cloud with great power and glory against Egypt; Egypt trembling. Luke 21:27 states the Son of Man coming with power and great glory in a cloud. Watch this Sam in Matthew 16:27 it brings out the Son of Man coming in His Fathers glory. And some of those standing there I trust would saw that episode in AD 70.
You’re up Sam!
God Bless
BT… Greetings!
Yes, as you say, we must take into consideration what the Old Testament has to say if we are to understand the view of the contemporary audience. However, we also have to consider the way the First Century Apostles connected things together, seeing they were mostly Jews and had a working knowledge of Old Testament prophecies and historical events.
For that reason, then, I equate Jesus as “coming in a cloud with power and great glory” as reflecting His authorization from the Father to fulfill a mission, a mission depicted in Revelation 19:11-21. That mission, as detailed in verse 15, is to “tread the wine press of the fierce wrath of God the Almighty” against the “beast and the kings of the earth and their armies” which includes (verse 18) “the flesh of all men.”
It is without question that Jehovah brought the Roman Army to Jerusalem in 70CE. He did the same when He brought the Babylonian Army against Jerusalem in Circa 607 BC to remove the “crown of David” and take captive the entire nation. And knowing that Jesus is called “the Word of God” it seems reasonable that Jesus, in His pre-human form, lead those events, too. Also, as depicted in Revelation 19, He will bring the current system to its end in the days ahead.So if we take into consideration the Prophet Daniel’s account (Chapter 12:1-2) we can pick up on another point relating to “the Time of the End” that might shed some light on just when the end spoken about should be expected.
Daniel 12:1-2 (Darby Translation)
“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of distress, such as never was since there was a nation until that time. And at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that is found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.”The identity of Michael would be of interest here. Let’s try to connect the dots. What clues are within the Scriptures that can aid us in this effort? Try this one, first:
Jude 1:9 (New American Standard Bible)
“But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’”This verse tell us that Michael was an Archangel, which I believe, isn’t the lowest angel on the list. Apparently He holds an important position in the heavens and has charge of the heavenly Armies; see this Scripture:
Revelation 12:7-9 (New American Standard Bible)
“And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.”From our study of Revelation, we can notice a connection between Michael and Jesus:
Revelation 19:13-14 (New American Standard Bible)
“He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.”It appears that Jesus, in His pre-human spirit form, was Michael the Archangel. He, then, is the One waging war against the Beast and the ten kings spoken of in Revelation 19.
That brings us back to Daniel’s account:
“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.”
This passage is speaking of the resurrection of mankind as Jesus recounted:
John 5:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.”As the Scriptures point out, then, this general resurrection of dead mankind does not take place until after the abyssing of Satan and his minions. (Revelation 20:4-6) The conclusion here is this: The world in which we live (also those of 70CE) has not seen the abyssing of Satan. He remains the “god” of this system of things and will remain so until Jesus (Michael) forcibly removes him. How then can we say that “all things” were concluded in 70CE? We CAN say the Jewish System ended… true! But not all things pertaining to this world.
Your thoughts are awaited. God bless!
Greeting Sam
When phrasing the time of the end we are suggesting the end of this earth and universe to boot. If earth is going to be destroyed how does the scenario fit in with scriptures already referenced? In other words how will people live on it if its not here. The next suggesting implies the end of this system of things controlled by Satan after his death. I’m not trying to be facetious Sam in my assessment the dots don’t connect.
Looking at the following scripture literally!
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
This fits the first scenario of the heavens and earth completely destroyed. This verse doesn't convey the end of the system of things if we take Peter's statement literal. Then again, if we take it symbolic the end of time in Daniel could mean something entirely different.
In 2 Peter 3:13 he is encouraging the congregation to look forward to a New Heaven and Earth. The problem is no matter what stand we take literal or symbolic it will not work with these ideas; we can't have it both ways. It may be good Sam to lay out the sequence of events as you see it. From the time Christ takes action in the Kingdom to the establishment of New Heaven and earth, and when Christ hands it over to Jehovah.
I believe the archangel angel Michael is Christ but called same because the term angel in other places can mean messenger. Just as Christ is called “the Messenger of the Covenant”
Mal 3:1 “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.
On the flip side of the coin God states; referring to His Son “For to which of the angels did God ever say, You are my Son”
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
Again Sam maybe you can map out your take, picture, of the end times in a chronological order. Commencing from the second coming of Christ to handing over the Kingdom to Jehovah! I would appreciate the sequence.God Bless
BT… Greetings!
As you are aware, there are symbolic representations (metaphors) used extensively throughout the Scriptures. The trick is to be able to discern what the reality is behind the metaphor.
You mention: “When phrasing the time of the end we are suggesting the end of this earth and universe to boot. If earth is going to be destroyed how does the scenario fit in with scriptures already referenced? In other words how will people live on it if its not here.”
What does the Scriptures tell us regarding the physical earth? Let’s examine that point:
Psalm 104:4-5 (New American Standard Bible)
“He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers. He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever.”Revelation 11:18 (Darby Translation)
“And the nations have been full of wrath, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the recompense to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to those who fear thy name, small and great; and to destroy those that destroy the earth.”After considering the above Scriptures, we cannot but see that God Almighty has no intension of destroying this earth. We can learn something else: the timing of events leading to the end that Daniel made reference to. First, as Revelation 19:11-21 detailed, “the nations have been full of wrath,” then follows “and Thy wrath is come” continuing with “the dead to be judged.” Revelation 20:4-6
The sequence of events are stated within the Scriptures. Obviously, “the heavens and the earth” that Peter spoke of must be metaphors and not reality. What are they in reality? It would appear that they represent the ruling powers over the earth (heavens) and those held subject, (the earth.) Remember, there will be survivors that come out of the great tribulation that culminates at Armageddon and God’s day of wrath. Revelation 7:9,14; 19:15
Do let me know your thoughts. God Bless!
Greetings Samual & BT
I'm lost! Whatever happened to Mat 24 and preterism. Anyway, about the earth, it is this system of things that is going to be destroyed – not the dirt and water. The metaphoric language so used throughout these various scriptures is intended to convey the finality of the judgements involved. There again, our God can do anything remember.
RS
Greeting Sam/Rabsheka
Rabsheka we drifted of track for certain. We leaped over verse 9 to 30 and by thus doing so we broke the flow stream of our theme; your candor is appreciated. Nevertheless, if we ever make it to verse 30 well have a head good start. LOL
There is no 2000 year or more separation so far in my view. It’s straight talk from Jesus to his contemporary audience, giving warning to an upcoming destruction in their lifetime. The pronoun “you” is constantly used to keep continuity and stability going. It’s only when reading into them that cause many to struggle with the Olivet Discourse complexities. These are my thoughts but not the final word for sure on the subject. To continue!
Matt 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
We are well aware of the suffering Christians in the first century experienced before AD 70 “Both Jew and Gentile united in persecuting them. And so the Romans and their cohort Nations along with the Jews did not let up until after 70 AD.
Nevertheless, this doesn’t mean Christian weren’t victimized in the subsequent centuries. But we can depend on the word of God in the New Testament that the persecution, one of the sign, Jesus warned about was fulfilled back then. Matt 10:17-22; 22:6; 23:34 Mark 13:9-13 Luke 11:49; 21:12 John 15:19-20
Sam there’s good scriptual grounds to consider the earth will endure forever. But it raises a dilemma for the futuristic view. Daniel chapter twelve states “when will the power of the holy people be shattered” will it be at the end of time as Daniel was told.
You said. How then can we say that “all things” were concluded in 70CE? We CAN say the Jewish System ended… true! But not all things pertaining to this world.
Great observations Sam but I believe it’s speaking of the end of an age; the Old Covenant Jewish world that was fading away. Hebrews 8:13 The Old Heaven and Earth!
Let me know your thoughts……….Your up!
God Bless
Rabsheka & BT… Greetings!
What seems to be staying off the topic of the Olivet Discourse is not as it appears. Did we not agree that in order to discover truth that we had to consider both the Old and New Testament and compare what Prophet and Apostles had as their understanding of any particular subject? God’s Word is truth! The answers to all our queries are within the Scriptures; they are either supported or dispelled by the evidence provided between Genesis and Revelation, and from the very first prophecy to the very last, they lead to the end of God’s plan of salvation for believing mankind.
God’s Plan has a schedule for every event. We cannot delete any step along our pathway to discovery. The resurrection is one very important step that cannot be circumvented if we truly wish to find the timing of each event. Jesus gives us signs within the Olivet Discourse, but other Scriptures list the sequence. For example:
Daniel 12:1-2 (Darby Translation)
“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of distress, such as never was since there was a nation until that time. And at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that is found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.”Revelation 12:7-9 (New American Standard Bible)
“And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.”These two passages are related to what Jesus mentioned:
Matthew 24:21 (New American Standard Bible)
“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.”Jesus well knew the history of our world. When He said this prophecy (for such it is) He pointed into the future while considering the past. He knew of the Flood of Noah’s Day; the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah; the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem in circa 607BC; and the up-coming destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. Since that time we have had two major World Wars that dwarfed those killed in both destructions of Jerusalem; tribulation on the inhabitants of these warring factions was tremendous! Had Hitler won the last war there would be no Jew or Polish person left alive. Hence Jesus’ words:
Matthew 24:22 (New American Standard Bible)
“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.”The question is… Did these words apply strictly to the Jews of 70CE? Or did they extend further down the steam of time? When the Jews were soundly defeated in 70CE did the following sign occur:
Matthew 24:30 (New American Standard Bible)
“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.”I do not recall from recorded history that “all the tribes of the earth will mourn” at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. For that reason alone I see events portrayed as playing out in the future, and not being restricted solely to the past.
Your thoughts are awaited. God bless!
Hi Sam & BT
As I have said, we keep seeinf both epochs in these scriptures, which can only mean one thing. Some are for one, some for the other and others for both. The trick is which are wich.
O dear, my visitor is arriving. I will get back. (great discussion though)!
RS
Greetings Rabsheka/Sam
In my recent post I was acting in response to what Rabsheka said “I'm lost! Whatever happened to Matt 24 and preterism.”
Yes we agreed to use the Old and New Testament for references, this we always did. We also agreed to take one or more scriptures at a time without jumping over the preceding ones. In other words when verse 9 was next verse 21etc was communicated. This interrupts the flow of Chapter 24: What many Christians do Sam is hatchet up the Olivet Discourse into two moments in time; one imminent the other over 2000 years later. Why not let the text speak for itself.
Daniel 12:1-2 (Darby Translation)
“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of distress, such as never was since there was a nation until that time. And at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that is found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.”The angel inquired about Daniel 12:1, 2 “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?” Dan 12:6
The other angel answered. “When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.” Dan 12:7
My question to is when will the power of the holy people be broken?
You’re at bat
God Bless
BT & Rabshecka… Greetings!
Okay, then, let’s try this again. First, we can take BT’s question and see what we can come up with from Scripture to aid us in finding a plausible answer:
“My question to is when will the power of the holy people be broken?”
This question stems from the following Scripture:
Daniel 12:6-7 (New American Standard Bible)
“And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, ‘How long will it be until the end of these wonders?’ I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.”Going directly to BT’s question, “when will the power of the holy people be broken” we must now consider the clue given in verse 9:
Daniel 12:9 (New American Standard Bible)
“He said, ‘Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.’”Two questions arise from these three verses: Who really are “the holy people” and what “end time” are they referring to?
True, the Israelite Nation were suppose to be a holy people, but what do the Scriptures indicate as to how well they measured up to the task? Let’s see:
Ezekiel 2:3 (New American Standard Bible)
“Then He said to me, ‘Son of man, I am sending you to the sons of Israel, to a rebellious people who have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.’”Hosea 7:13 (New American Standard Bible)
“Woe to them, for they have strayed from Me! Destruction is theirs, for they have rebelled against Me! I would redeem them, but they speak lies against Me.”John 8:44 (New American Standard Bible)
“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”The Israelite Nation was stripped of their representation of God’s Kingdom on earth. They were no longer holy people to God. What then? Jesus tells us:
Matthew 21:43 (New American Standard Bible)
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”
There was an obvious transfer from Natural Israel to “a people producing the fruit of it (the holiness).” The ones now in possession of the Kingdom of God… the holy people… are those followers of Jesus Christ, those that worship the Father in Spirit and truth. (John 4:24)So, then, who were the holy ones that are “shattered”? They are not, in my opinion, the Natural Jews. History does show when they lost God’s favour and were removed from their standing; however, the Christians were scattered across the globe, also. The important point is that the Christians were now in possession of the Kingdom interests and not the Natural Israelites.
It appears that the close or end of the Natural Jewish system is not the “end time” referred to by Daniel. Because there was a connection with the end time and the resurrection of the dead, I can only conclude that this shattering of the holy people takes place in the future, near or far, I cannot say.
Your thoughts are awaited. God bless!
Hi Samual & BT
Samual, I cannot fault your understanding thus:
It appears that the close or end of the Natural Jewish system is not the “end time” referred to by Daniel. Because there was a connection with the end time and the resurrection of the dead, I can only conclude that this shattering of the holy people takes place in the future, near or far,
And also your wisdom – “I cannot say.” For our Lord could not and I cannot – and it has not yet happened.
You would agree that it (the shattering) is also well versed in Revelation 13:
5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Rev 13:5-8 (ESV)So, I believe this ties up you link back to Daniel nicely. I also believe that this conquering of the holy ones relates directly to the death and resurrection of the two witnesses, after which there is no one on the face of the earth belonging to God. Yet to date, as we know from scripture, “the light has shone in the darkness and has never gone out”. In fact, the light shone very brightly indeed at the very time of the dispersal of the Jewish people between 70AD and 130 AD(ish). i also note that “authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation. To date, no one or nothing has ever had total authority over the whole earth, let alone the romans. And there have been larger empires since.
A small aside though if you will. Yes I am also guilty. I read my bible avidly. However, I recall I once read, perhaps somewhere in the letters of Paul, that it is the Christian martyrs who precipitate the end by declaring that enough have been saved to the Kingdom and so the earth is totally relinquished to the beast. However, I have never read it again, and it is probably a dream.
Can either of you shed light?RS
RS
Sam & Rabshecka… Greetings!
We previously established Jehovah’s will was carried out by Roman armies and their cohort Nations to destroy the temple. This was the final sign the Jewish Nation was longer God’s favored people. Hosea 7:13 Ezekiel 2:3 Matt 16:27, 28; 23:36; 24:3
“The Israelite Nation was stripped of their representation of God’s Kingdom on earth. They were no longer a holy people to Jehovah.”
To continue…Those alive at the time, AD 70, witnessed a Nation losing God’s favor by ending the Old Covenant age. They lost their standing to a people given a New Name, and a kingdom by accepting God’s Son. Matt. 21:43 John 4:24 Isaiah. 62:2
Christ came in His Fathers glory…. “For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory” Matt 16:27, 28 His coming on clouds is the same way His Father came long-ago in retribution on a Nation. Isaiah 19:1 Jehovah is riding on a cloud! Matt.24:30 Luke 21:22
God’s holy people were shattered in AD 70; ending the Old Covenant age; or the end of time.
Jeremiah 31:31 “The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Now if that’s not sufficient enough we have the following. An angel speaks about a prophetic event; resurrection of both the righteous and the condemnable. Then tells Daniel “But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Dan. 12:4
Centuries pass, Our Lord sent by God walks the earth and is crucified for the sins of mankind. John pens Revelation from Patmos and is told by an angel. “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. Rev 22:10
Daniel is told the time is a long way off, and John is informed the time is near for the scroll to be opened. Coincidence, you guys got the ball!
God Bless
BT… Greetings!
My questions to you, then, is this: Are you saying that Armageddon occurred back in 70CE? Was Satan and his minions abyssed at that time and therefore we are now living in a world of peace and harmony under God’s Kingdom on earth? Has the general resurrection of dead mankind already taken place? Has Jesus Christ destroyed all “ten kings” and removed the beast and the “false prophet” and tossed them into the “lake of fire” forever?
All these questions must be acknowledged as completed in order for your view (which isn’t entirely incorrect) to fall under the end of time.
And where are these “people producing the fruits” of the Kingdom? Have they all been removed from this earth and are now residing in the heavens? Has God abandoned the earth to the warring factions that are visibly destroying our planet? If so, then the Scriptures thus stated was untrue:
Psalm 37:10 (New American Standard Bible)
“Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more;
And you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there.”Revelation 21:7-8 (New American Standard Bible)
“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”Revelation 21:3-4 (New American Standard Bible)
“And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”Not to sound sarcastic, BT, but by reading the obituaries in day by day newspapers, it seems that death is very much with us. Tears fall like a torrent across this earth while nations continue to bury their dead loved ones. No, BT, the “end time” has not yet arrived. It certainly came for the Israelite nation in 70CE, but not for the entire planet. That day of “God’s wrath” still looms ahead of us. See what’s in store:
Zephaniah 1:14-18 (New American Standard Bible)
“Near is the great day of the LORD,
Near and coming very quickly;
Listen, the day of the LORD!
In it the warrior cries out bitterly.A day of wrath is that day,
A day of trouble and distress,
A day of destruction and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,A day of trumpet and battle cry
Against the fortified cities
And the high corner towers.I will bring distress on men
So that they will walk like the blind,
Because they have sinned against the LORD;
And their blood will be poured out like dust
And their flesh like dung.Neither their silver nor their gold
Will be able to deliver them
On the day of the LORD'S wrath;
And all the earth will be devoured
In the fire of His jealousy,
For He will make a complete end,
Indeed a terrifying one,
Of all the inhabitants of the earth.Doesn’t this account align with Revelation 19:17-18?
Do let me know your thoughts. God bless!
Greeting RS/sam
RS You pointed out there is no correlation linking the end time, and resurrection. In my last post I offered a clear connection. It places them in the same time frame; the destruction of the temple in AD 70.
You also referenced the text in Rev. 13:5-8 to establish the end time in our future. The question is who are, or was, the beast, and when was Revelation penned. My answer on same could only be addressed if these points are understood from the preterist concept.
I posted a thread on the “Beast of Revelation” if you care to look; it presents the preterist view as I understand it so far. Keep in mind it may not necessarily be mine.
As for your dream, I hunted for a scripture to no avail. Perhaps someone else could help.
Sam before tackling your post I want to make clear I’m presenting Covenant Eschatology, “A branch of theology that is concerned with such things as death Judgment and the ultimate destiny of human kind.” As I said to RS the full preterist view is not necessarily what I believe. But scriptures are pointing me in their direction!
Full preterism is declared in Christian camps as heretical “Characterized by departure from excepted beliefs or standards.” These encampments are the partial preterist and broad-spectrum of the Christian community.
Good stuff Sam on Revelation 20 which use to be mine a long time ago. Wow it was a long time now that I think of it! Let me take you back to 1975!
I was Jehovah Witness in Aqueduct Racetrack in Brooklyn New York with my kids in 1975 waiting for the advent of Christ. My paradigm taught by the JW organization led me to believe it was the time prophesied by our Lord. The second advent of Christ had arrived!
They never did take responsibility for leading members to a false notion. This wasn’t the first time this was predicted by them. The justification was the light gets brighter! Tell me that and I’ll tell you another one!
I said all that to say this. They were not the only group falsely predicting the Lords coming. People have stood on rooftops in the past doing same. You’re not alone! All this they get from the symbolic book John penned over 2000 years ago while on the Island of Patmos. Never even considering John was writing to real people in His lifetime with factual citations to help them through their trials.
If we imagine we have tribulations, let us put ourselves in Christian sandals being stoned by the Jews and burned alive by the Romans under orders by the beast of Revelation Nero.
You’re up guys
God bless
BT… Greetings!
Unlike others, I do understand that John was writing to counterpoise, not unlike the ancient prophets did in their time. However, as you are well aware, their writings (prophecies) stretched down through the centuries before reaching fulfillment as does John’s Revelation account.
One such example is the very first prophecy recorded within the Scriptures:
Genesis 3:15 (New American Standard Bible)
“And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
Revelation 20:10 (New American Standard Bible)
“And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”In this instance there are many millennium involved before this yet to be prophecy reaches a conclusion.
I, too, recall the WTS’s promotion of 1975 being the time of the Lord’s Return. They groomed everyone to believe this, however, as the years slipped away without such an event taking place, they turned around and blamed the flock for the misunderstanding. And there isn’t anything new about their 130 year run of failed prophecy. According to the testing method given within Scripture…
Deuteronomy 18:20-23 (New American Standard Bible)
“But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken.’ When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”… the WTS has failed miserably. (I do have a long list of just such failed prophecies of theirs and anyone wishing to see it, please ask!)
But the Word of God does not lie. The events detailed in my last post will not fail to take place. The Scriptural evidence all points to the future and is not limited to 70CE. Just because many false prophets have gone into the world and deceived many, does not alter what God has in mind for this world. From all indication, BT, our day is no less evil than prior to the flood of Noah’s time; in fact, Jesus made that connection in Matthew 24:37-39.
The Preterist view limits events to 70CE. But the two major events (the resurrection of the dead and the battle of Armageddon) have not taken place. The prayer that Jesus instructed His Apostles “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven” has not taken place. The back door is wide open.
When Jesus does come with His army of Angels to “tread the wine press of the fierce wrath of God the Almighty,” the entire world will know it. Then, as the Scripture recounts, “then all the tribes of the earth will mourn.” (Matthew 24:30) I see no record of this event happening in 70CE.
Your thoughts are awaited. God bless!
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