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Greeting Sam
Good stuff Sam and agree, well said……….No one has a handle on all truths of the Divine Word. We are only bible students still learning. I belonged to an organization who thinks different. If one disagreed and shared their thoughts with others they were out, and yet they have changed their scriptural views overtime. Go figure! To have freedom to debate any given topic is healthy and free. Gal.5:1 John 5:17; 13:34
Being dumped out was a blessing and shattered my paradigm leading to a paradigm shift by study and discussion with a student like yourself and others off and on the Internet. This is prior to my understanding of preterism. Some may say it can take one tossed back and forth by every wind of teaching Eph. 4:14 James 3:4 Today I sense solid ground but my word for certain in not the last. 1 Cor. 8:3
Because God's judgments took place in the past on a people is not proof enough it will happen in the future in my opinion? The only judgment I perceive in the future takes place when we leave this earthly stage.
Maybe you can lay out the future scenario of the coming of Christ, His 1000 year reign, Armageddon etc; paint a picture by comparing scripture with scripture. If not that's fine!
It may possibly be interesting as a substitute of going back and forth on so many different subjects to go through the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24:1-34, the foundation of preterism, taking a few scriptures at a time starting with verses 1-3 first. And by doing so staying focused on those scriptures only, yet comparing scripture with scripture. Then move on to the next. Not staying to long winded on the previous one.
If others want to join in the more the merrier! I do the same in house studies with other and we have a great time by doing so. We take chance apiece conducting!If you like I’ll get the ball rolling.
God Bless
Good Morning, BT!
I like that idea very well. It is very difficult for many Believers to grasp concepts that differ from what they have been raised to understand; sort of like Santa and the Easter Bunny that most children were made to believe in their early years.
Today, however, I have to go into the Hospital for a biopsy on my throat. They say there's a problem with a growth on my vocal chords and they have to chop a chunk out to anaylse. (I've been in and out of hospitals for most of 2008 and am getting very tired of it all.) The procedure takes place today at 2:15PM and they say I may have to stay overnight in the hospital because of a heart attack I've had (and nobody told me about any heart attack?) so they can more closely monitor me. Grrrr!
Anyway, BT, if all goes well I'll be back at this station tomorrow sometime. Our Bible Study is what's most important to me, and I am certain to many others on this site. So may God bless our effort to understand His Word and help each other toward a better future in His Righteous New Kingdom.
God bless!
Greeting Sam
I’ll be looking forward to your return home. I’ve been home for a week since entering the hospital Monday. Recovering from an angioplasty to check a stent put in four years ago from a heart attack. When taking a stress test last week they found the stent got clogged. Ya great! So back to the hospital I went! Last year was a hospital year for me also for all kinds of stuff. Nobody told us about this a long time ago. But it’s good living in a time when the medical industry keeps people going in this perplexing world.
Take care brother and see ya on the rebound, my prayers are with you.
God Bless
BT… Greetings!
I'm back home but a bit tired out. I think every Doctor in the place had to check out my heart and finally decided that I had heart problems on top of everything else. It's getting boring.
I know many folks beieve the Kingdom of God is spiritual and as far as earth goes, is unlikely to be a reality. I'm not one of them. Following the Prayer Jesus taught His faithful followers, I pray for God's Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven. There's no one sick in heaven and I believe one day, there will be no one sick on earth. Here's praying that all here on this board will be able to experience that time of true peace and good health.
Nap time is approaching so God Bless all of us!
Greeting Sam
Sam good to hear you’re home and resting!
I’m not looking forward to work Monday in this deep freeze. Getting use to sitting home in a warm house, when the landlord decides to through coal in the fire, and my wife dragging me to Wal-Mart’s on a toboggan.
Speak to you latter when you’re up to it!
God Bless
BT… Greetings!
Your Suggestion:
“It may possibly be interesting as a substitute of going back and forth on so many different subjects to go through the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24:1-34, the foundation of preterism, taking a few scriptures at a time starting with verses 1-3 first. And by doing so staying focused on those scriptures only, yet comparing scripture with scripture. Then move on to the next. Not staying to long winded on the previous one. If others want to join in the more the merrier! I do the same in house studies with other and we have a great time by doing so.”Agreed! Let’s get rolling.
Matthew 24:1-3 (New American Standard Bible)
“Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, ‘Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.’ As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, ‘Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?’”Taking a strictly Preterist view from this passage we can easily see that Jesus was speaking about the destruction of the Jewish “temple” which, as we know, the Roman Army demolished in 70CE.
Included in this passage was the Apostle’s request for a “sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age.”
Preteristicly speaking, considering that the question seems to relate back to the destruction of the Temple, the “end of the age” must relate to the end of the Jewish Age, or the finale’ of the Israelite Nation as God’s Chosen People and their earthly representation of God’s Kingdom arrangement. We can also connect His “coming” within that question’s framework.
History supports the stated facts herein. However, in Jesus’ reply there seems to be much more involved. First off, we know that Jesus serves as the avenger who metes out retribution on those God judges as meriting destruction. (Revelation 19:11-16) This passage also refers to His “coming” to “tread the wine press of the fierce wrath of God the Almighty.” Of particular note is that although Jesus is said to be “King of Kings, and Lord of Lords” it in no way shows that He has begun His thousand year reign over the earth. (Revelation 20:4-6) That takes place after Armageddon and the destruction of the “ten kings” and the “false prophet” and the abyssing of Satan. (Revelation 19:17-20:3) These events did not take place in 70CE. Only the Jewish System came to an end.
As for the “sign” of His coming, see what Jesus told the Pharisees:
Mark 8:11-12 (New American Standard Bible)
“The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, ‘Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.’”Luke 11:29-30 (New American Standard Bible)
“As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, ‘This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah.
For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation.’”To that generation of Jews who well knew the Story of Jonah, the key was the three days that Jonah spent in the belly of a great fish compared to the three days Jesus spent in death. But the Apostles asked for a sign! I’ll let you take it from here as you deal with Jesus’ answer from Matthew 24:4- onward.
God bless!
Greetings S & BT
If I may join in here. Mathew 24 is difficult indeed, has been a stumbling block for many and misconstrued by others for their own purposes. And I have never read a coherent comentary on it that satisfies all the questions it raises for me. However! As I have said in another place here, scripture is not just the words as written but as we know equally what thay imply. Turning to Mt 24:1-3 again for a moment, let's try to imagine what has transpired.
“Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, ‘Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
What is implied here is that the Lord had been inside the temple, as had become his habit at this time, preaching the kingdom, and must have talked about the new covenant and Kingdom that did not have anything to do with this particular building. Then, the disciples interrupted his leaving and pointed out it's imposing construction and appearance of permanence – after all it had only recently been through a major renovation job and was a significant wonder of the roman world at the time. Because they were at that point still receiving knowledge from the Lord without a context (he still taught them in riddles or parables), they could not conceive that such an imposing structure would not play some role in the Kingdom. And so, knowing their confusion, he told them straight – it would be torn down (for the new covenant could not abide two temples, could it). This is prophacy relating directly and plainly to the generation of that time.
“As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, ‘Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?’”
Here, in the next sentence, we have changed both locations and to some extent, context. Firstly, the disciples had had some time to consider the many things they had just been told inside the temple, much of which we are not privy to and can only deduct. So they sought clarification on three issues arising from his teachings that day – when certain prophasies would take place, what would be the sign of his return and when would the age end.
So, at this point, all we can say is that the Lord had just prophesied many things to them in the temple that made them think, they now knew Herod's temple would be destroyed and they needed similar straight answers on the former. What comes next is his answer to these three questions. But we here today need to establish which prophasies, which return of the Lord (Galilee or Armageddon) and which age they were asking about (Israel under the law or after the coming time of the nations) in order to establish knowledge.
I will leave it to the next person to step of into the great quandry beginning with verse 4.
Greeting Sam
Your evaluation of the primary verses was well said. The conclusion of the age Jesus referred to was the Jewish economy. He is responding to a direct question four Apostles asked him in private.
The destruction of the temple was on their minds. The concern of Christ I suppose was the faith of Apostles who were to become foundation stones of a spiritual temple after the destruction of the literal temple. This is not a replacement theology but a continuation of God’s overall plan.
1 Peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Without further ado we move toward the following two verses.
Matthew 24:4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
Once more we have the pronoun “you! Whatever the dialogue is in verses 4-34 it communicated to the original audience. So apparently countless false prophets did come claiming Messiahship in the first century. Most Christian nowadays miss this devoid of any consideration.
1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Matt 24: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Your turn Sam
God Bless
Rabsheka… Greetings!
Your consideration of events leading to the questions of Jesus’ Apostles seems right on target, especially your connecting the old “temple” of Herod with the new spiritual temple that replaced the physical one. As the Apostle Paul said, rather than the old Levite priesthood of the Mosaic covenant having the responsibility to render sacrifices for the sins of the people, Jesus and the Faithful would serve in this role:
Hebrews 7:26-28 (New American Standard Bible)
“For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.”Revelation 1:5-6 (New American Standard Bible)
“…and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood–
and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father–to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.”The Apostle Peter confirms this point:
1 Peter 2:5 (New American Standard Bible)
“…you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”The criteria for becoming part of the “spiritual house for a holy priesthood” is as Jesus stated:
John 4:24 (New American Standard Bible)
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
We will consider more evidence as to when these things were to take place as we investigate Matthew 24.God bless!
Greetings BT, Rabsheka again
I am not convinced that “the sign of your coming” or “the end of the age” refer to events, or at least only events” that would occur in the lifetimes of the Apostles or the 1st century. Additionally, there seems to be a very real sense that some of the prophesies of Mat 24 would apply to both ages as minor and major fulfilments. In most instances it has been my experience that there will be two or more scriptures, usually in different books, that cover the same matter so that we receive more than one viewpoint to give us a two or three dimensional clear understanding. This is indeed why we have four gospels. The scripture that gives this dimension or perspective to Mat 24 is 2 Thes 2:1-12
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Now in many ways, 2 Thes 2:1-12 could be seen to be applicable to the destruction of the temple and the Jewish state in and close after 70AD, except that
a. Caesar did not sit in the temple, he had his son and successor destroy it so no one could sit in it
b. the man of destruction is not Caesar for there is no record, scriptural or profain, that tells us that the Lord returned and destroyed him with his presence and the breath of his mouth
c. the faithful were not gathered to the Lord at the time of the temple's destruction, because we know that at least two Apostles and even three remained in their flesh after that – Peter, John and Paul
Accordingly, I would contend that the “age' being referred to is the end of this system of things (which I'm afraid is still with us), the return of the Lord referred to is likewise because he had not risen before he went to Galilee, at which time the desciples were told the sign of his return would be his coming with the clouds.
As for Mat 24:4 being specifically adressed to the then desciples only, I believe the warning was for all the faithful, then and in the age about to begin, as re-iterated more forcefully in 2 Thes Chapt 2.
BT… Greetings!
I don’t quite follow your use of the phrase “Jewish Economy” as directly connected to the Answer Jesus gave regarding the temple’s destruction. The reason being that Jesus spoke about the end of the spiritual system, in particular, the close of God’s Kingdom representatives in the hands of Israelites. As the Scripture says:
Matthew 21:42-43 (New American Standard Bible)
“Jesus said to them, ‘Did you never read in the Scriptures,
'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”
As the Scriptures make clear, the “people, producing the fruit” were both Jews and Gentiles. (Romans 2:28-29)
If we consider the answer Jesus gave the Apostles (Matthew 24:4-5) I’m not so certain that there were “many will come in My name” during the 1st Century. After all, Jesus was crucified as a criminal; I can’t see many wanting to emulate Jesus at that time. The Apostles were around for much of that time and would have exposed any would be imposters. It wasn’t until John’s later letters that we see those that “mislead many” surfaced:
1 John 2:18-19 (New American Standard Bible)
“Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.”The other part of His Answer I feel extends into the future is found in verse 14:
Matthew 24:14 (New American Standard Bible)
“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.”I know that the Preterist view considers this remark, ”whole world” as being restricted to the local nations around Jerusalem; but I feel this not to be so. Recall the following Scripture:
Galatians 3:7-9 (New American Standard Bible)
“Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, ‘ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.’ So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.”This Scripture does not restrict “All Nations” to any single continent, but surely encompasses the entire globe. And, as for the time frame for these events, we need to consider what the Apostle Peter said:
2 Peter 3:7-9 (New American Standard Bible)
“But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”It seems to me that Peter was aware (or becoming aware) that the time for God’s “judgment and destruction of ungodly men” was some distance away. We are about two thousand years from the time Jesus gave His “signs” of the end of the “ungodly men.” But, yes, much of what Jesus said applied to the destruction of Jerusalem and it’s temple but it appears that it extends much further than the 1st Century.
I await your reply. God bless!
Greeting Sam
It was God who supported the system of production and distribution to His Holy people. When the temple went down it made clear to Gentile and Jew it ended that age.
The reason I used the phrase ‘Jewish Economy is in view of the fact God supported the Jewish Nation previously to the demise of the Jewish system of things. Supplying them both monetary and spiritually. In other words they were now on their own. As you said “Jesus spoke about the end of the spiritual system, in particular, the close of God’s Kingdom representatives in the hands of Israelites.”
It also provided evidence Christianity was not a Jewish sect and one didn’t have to be circumcised and etc. It ended the Precaution of the Jews against the Christian community. The kingdom was clearly taken away and given to another Nation both Jew and Gentile.
You referenced
Matthew 24:14 (New American Standard Bible)
“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.”It was understood when the word (world oikoumene)
was spoken it meant the Roman Empire. When not used it means the Cosmos. In our verse it’s (specifically the Roman Empire.)NT:3625 oikoumene (oy-kou-men'-ay); feminine participle present passive of NT:3611 (as noun, by implication of NT:1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically, the Roman empire:
Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance.
Nevertheless, Rabsheka has joined our discussion in a post I missed. So maybe we should spend some time with his take on Matthew 24
I await your thoughts
God Bless
Greetings Rabsheka
My humble apology for missing your post it’s good to see you joined in.
You said “Turning to Mt 24:1-3 again for a moment, let's try to imagine what has transpired.”
Beginning with Matthew chapter 23 without separating the two chapters its clear after establishing judgment on the Jewish Nation Jesus said “Your house shall be left to you desolate,” Matthew 23:36,38 and stating it coming to pass in the contemporary generation. I don’t think Jesus was speaking in riddles or parables the disciples wouldn’t understand in that chapter. (Verse 36) If we would put ourselves in listeners’ sandals it appears to be a good start to a consideration of it.
Of course the disciple didn’t get the full gist of the temples destruction until Jesus completed his discoursed or they would have remained in the temple when it was destroyed. (Luke 21:20) “Now, with all of this in mind, we move into chapter 24 and the Olivet discourse of Jesus”
God Bless
BT… Greetings!
I understand your referenced meaning from Strong's but the trip up seems to me associated with the “all nations” part. It may well have been an error made in translating and given the wrong “world” that is confusing the understanding of Jesus' words.
Time is short for this afternoon, but I'll try to get back at this later today. God bless!
Greetings Sam and Rabsheka
Something added to the mix!
Col 1:6 that has come to you. All over the “world” this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth.
The word “world” is “Kosmos” not “Oikoumene” Paul says in so many words Christians are growing fruit throughout the world “Kosmos” performed by the preaching work.
NT:2889 kosmos ( kos'- mos); probably from the base of NT:2865; orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]) New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary
Not through nonetheless in this intriguing subject the Olivet Discourse introduces. Paul claims the Good New of the Gospel declared to every (creature) person beneath heaven.
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that “has been proclaimed” to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
The only way to understand these not easy statements is to join the contemporary audience. The preterist view takes us back there, and it seems like a good place to start. We put on our sandals and persist with the Olivet Discourse listening to the words of Christ by letting the bible speak for itself.
Verse 6 has yet to be addressed!
God Bless our endeavors to understand
BT… Greetings!
Seeing that verse 6 ties into both 7 & 8, let’s try to reason along these lines and see what makes Scriptural and logical sense.
Matthew 24:6-8 (New American Standard Bible)
“You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.”In this consideration it would be very helpful if we had someone who had done research on exactly what wars were going on during this period of time. Were the Roman’s or Jews fighting other nations nearby? How about the nations around that area… or even further a field?
As the Scripture points out, “nation would rise against nation” which seems to indicate a time of global strife, nothing so minor as any local skirmish. And what about famine? During times of warfare it isn’t unusual for famine condition to arise. Most of the able-bodied men are taken into the military and their farmlands left without the necessary manpower to continue operation. Did this event that Jesus spoke of take place during 70CE, aside from within the besieged city of Jerusalem, of course?
Verse 9 comes into play, also. If all the above was just the “beginning of birth pangs” (signifying a further spread of these troubles) , just how all encompassing was these events? Doesn’t it begin to sound like a virus that is so contagious that it infects the entire globe?
Do let me know your thoughts. God bless!
Hi Sam & BT (and anyone else foolish enough to join this discussion on what I consider the most difficult passage of the NT – LOL). We must be brave!
Now I fully understand what preterism is, and like all “isms” it has developed many sub-sets and variants just like trinityism has. So, as for me, I would rather just argue and discuss Mat 24 between ourselves as individuals verse by verse or verses and then look at how the results relate to preterism in the end. What do you think?
In the meantime, I am going to maintain for my position that Mat 24:3 means as follows:
a. when will these things be? – depending on the particular “thing”, each prophacy (of Mat 24) will take place at it's own appointed time sometime between Christ's Death and his return, which is not yet complete. They were asking for a timeline for his prophacies -just like we want.
b. what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age? – He will return with the clouds, which he tells them in verse 29, and which has not yet happened. Again, reading between the lines, they wanted to know the sign so they would not be deceived – just like us. The “age” as stated being “the times of the nations” or as alternatively known, “the Church age”.
Now, before going on to verse six, I would like to say something about verses four and five.
And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray
I believe this warning from the Lord applies for the whole of the church age and not just the first century. Josephus tells something about a certain blacksmith if I remember rightly, but there is no record scriptural or profain that recounts that there were many saying they were the Christ arising in the 1st century. Read Jer. 29:8, Eph. 5:6; Col. 2:8; 2 Thess. 2:3; 1 John 3:7 Jer. 14:14; 1 John 2:18.
I await discussion on verse 6.
Strive to establish truth in the face of many assaults from antichrists.
Rabsheka… Greetings!
The establishing of truth must be located somewhere betwixt Scripture and History; however, since we are dealing with ancient history, where records are either lost or distorted (or never recorded at all) is a daunting challenge facing all truth-seekers.
I may try to dig through the Netscape to find any information detailing Roman Wars that were waged during the early first Century and see what may be recorded that can help us.
As for “many Christs” arising during that time, I, too, suspect very few, if any. When this prophecy seems to come into focus appears to have its beginning in the writings of the Apostle John:
1 John 2:18-19 (New American Standard Bible)
“Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.”We can get an idea as to how this took place if we picture in our minds the unfolding of the following verse:
3 John 1:9-10 (New American Standard Bible)
“I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.”It isn’t very difficult to track onward to the third Century when Constantine used the Christian Church to gain sovereignty over the populace and the military (the military, which consisted of mostly Christians at that time). This lead to the formation of the Papacy and further distortion of Scriptural truth as taught by Christ and His Disciples.
I will leave off here to begin digging around the history of warfare in the first century. It would be much appreciated if others on the board would assist in the venture.
God bless!
Rabsheka… Greetings!
I went into the internet and dug around Roman history but found little of any wars being waged during the period in question, aside from the Civil Unrest with the Jews. Some things I picked up may be of interest so I have included then for your consideration. They are as follows:
Judaism
While Judaism was largely tolerated, it was on occasion subject to (mostly) local persecution.Tiberius [32] forbade Judaism in Rome, and Claudius expelled Jews from the city. However the passage of Suetonius is ambiguous: “Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus he [Claudius] expelled them from the city” [31]. Chrestus has been identified as another form of Christus; the disturbances may have been related to the arrival of the first Christians, and that the Roman authorities, failing to distinguish between the Jews and the early Christians, simply decided to expel them all.
Christianity
Christianity, a Jewish religious sect, emerged in Judea in the first century AD and then began to spread establishing major bases in first Antioch, then Alexandria. Over time the new religion would spread throughout the empire and it was initially largely left in peace.Suetonius mentions passingly that: “[during Nero's reign] Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief” [33] but he doesn't explain for what they were punished. Tacitus reports that after the Great Fire of Rome in AD 64 some in the population held Nero responsible [34] and that to diffuse blame, he targeted and blamed the Christians [34].
Persecution of Christians would be a recurring theme in the Empire for the next two centuries. Eusebius and Lactantius document the last great persecution of the Christians under Diocletian at the beginning of the 4th century at the urging of Galerius. This was the most vicious persecution of Christians in the Empire's history
Samuel & BT, Greetings!
Re: Mat 24:6-8
Further to your searchings in your last post, I have been aware of much of this material, a lot of it being from Josephus. He was a jew and a priest, onetime jewish patriot (against Rome) and then a roman apologist who composed his histories to show himself in his best light to his patrons. However, academic opinion is that the factual content of his work is fairly reliable. If it was not for him we would know little historically outside the NT about the Jews under the Caesars as the three imperial provences making up the territory from Dan to Beersheeba were outposts of little importance to them, at least initially. Basically, it had always been roman policy just to garrison their territories, and so long as these paid their taxes, they left the day to day running of each country to to its own institutions. So, the jewish provences at the time of our Lord were ruled by satrap kings mainly from Herod the Great's family (an Edomite roman favourite), all of whom coverted David's throne, and so allowed the Sanhedrin to run jewish religeous matters, but with a little tweeking here and there so to speak (He who picks the high priest, etc,etc).
Now the problem was that after the demise of the Hasonean Kings, based upon the prophesies of Daniel as you calculate the years, the jews were then expecting the coming of their messiah who they hoped would cast the romans into the Mediterranean sea, and it was because of these disruptions that Augustus and Tiberius threw the jews out of rome every so often. They sent assassins for heavens sake. Accordingly, aside from many pretender messiahs (mostly before Christ I might add) who raised armies of a terrorist or guerilla nature, the general population was becomming very unruly and jewish patriotism (zealotism) was rife. And so it was that the roman policy of a light yoke totally broke down in the jewish provences, culminating in the destruction of the temple in 70AD, the dispersion and total removal of the jews from Palestine by 130AD.
Now it is likely that I have recounted things that you already know and please accept my apology. The point is however, that the Jewish patriot wars against the romans were the most serious faced by the Caesars in the 1st century, even to the extent that Caeser sent his son Titus, who himself would become Caesar, to destroy the temple. Now the pertinent scripture goes:
“And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you dare not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
While the contents of this scripture undoubtedly do relate to the Jewish patriot (zealot) wars, specifically verse 6, it also relates to much more than that. During their time, the romans would not let nations or kingdoms rise against other nations or kingdoms within the empire, and the context is plural so it does not mean against rome. Therefore, I would contend that verses 7 and 8 relate to a time after the roman empire, and even then it is just the beginning.
Consider in peace
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