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Greeting Samuel
Thanks for having the courage to challenge this view. I will do my best to let the bible speak for itself. I say this for so many say I didn’t see this or I didn’t see that. Look at all the people who witnessed Jesus crucified and said how could that poor soul be king of the Jews and savior of the world. But we know better it’s not what man perceives but God.
You quoted as follows!
Daniel 12:2 (New American Standard Bible) “any of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.” Has this event taken place? It is said to happen at “the end time.” (Daniel 12:9-10)
You asked if these verses were fulfilled. Let's see!
Point one. Daniel is told by an Angel to seal up the book until the end of time, meaning the time is far off. (End of time! In the Greek this means a long way off)
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
Dan 12:9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.
John is told by an Angel about 600 or so years later not to seal up the book for the time is near or at hand.
Rev 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.
Daniel is told a long way off and John is told it's imminent or about to happen. I believe this took place in AD 70 the end of the Jewish economy or age.
Point two. Dan 12:6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
The conversation continues.
Dan 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
Here is he kicker! Daniel is told that all the above said would happen when power of the holy people (The Jewish people) would be shattered or broken to pieces so that all would be fulfilled. Do you believe this to be in the future?
Point three! Dan 12:11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
The verse speaks of the abomination of desolation and so does our Lord.
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:20
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
You said!
The logical conclusion, BT, is that the “last day” or “the end time” has not taken place to date; hence, “all things” did not culminate in the 1st Century with the destruction of the Jewish System by the Roman armies. No, but I strongly suspect that day is much nearer than most believers expect. God bless!
I didn’t respond to the other scriptures yet in John and Acts but will be pleased to do so if you care to interchange on this subject. God bless Samuel
BT
BT… Greetings!
Did you miss my point BT? It was my intention to direct your attention to the “resurrection” that was a part of those prophecies; that part is not fulfilled to date.
Here is the problem as I see it. Quite obviously, BT, much of those prophecies had fulfillment when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman Army in 70CE. Of that I see no distortion. However, BT, when the Jewish Nation was dispersed throughout the world, did that put an end to God’s “Holy People” on earth? Take a look again:
Dan 12:7 “Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.”
By comparison, then, how does Peter’s words align with that of Daniel’s?
1 Peter 2:9-10 (New American Standard Bible)
“But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.”And what about what Jesus said:
Matthew 21:42-43 (New American Standard Bible)
“Jesus said to them, ‘Did you never read in the Scriptures,
'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?
Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”In short, BT, the Jewish position before God was dismantled in 70CE; however, by the above Scriptures we can see that a New Kingdom of God’s Holy People was ingurgitated, replacing the fleshly nation of Israel. By this New Kingdom arrangement, God’s Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Do let me know your thoughts on this point. God Bless!
Greetings Sam……All prophesy by nature is dual,with this understanding,whatever you read in prophesy that has occured will happan again…This serves as a warning to all….The destruction of the temple is a good example…..with exception of any spiritual applications….and those are revealed to Gods prophets,according to his promise to for warn of any impending judgement…
Theodorej… Greetings!
Not all prophecy has or will have double fulfillment, as I recall. Remember the very first prophecy?
Genesis 3:15 (New American Standard Bible)
“And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”This prophecy will take place once, at the final demise of Satan by Jesus. Of course, this is over a thousand years away, but as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, it will take place as God’s Written Word relates.
I see things a bit different than most, it appears. You no doubt recall the saying that history ignored leads to history repeated… not verbatim. What happened to Jerusalem in 70CE will replay itself out with Christendom, via the ten kings and the eighth king who strike down Babylon the Great. Ancient Jerusalem played the harlot and inflamed God’s anger to the point where He abandoned them to their enemies. The same scenario will play out again, likely in our time.
Anyway, there is ever so much to learn within the Scriptures, and ever so little time left to learn it. May the true God bless our efforts.
Greetings Samuel
As you may well know there are two views on our subject matter, partial and full preterist. What you said about the resurrection positions one in a partial arena. And the scriptures you presented in your last post backs that up. John 5:28.29. I understood your point, you well affirmed it. Good stuff
I would like to address first tackling the Jewish issue. I am Jewish proving God has not abandoned His people. Romans 11:1,2 This Includes any one else, Gentile, who wants to become a brother of Christ in the family of God.
Nevertheless, there are time statements and scriptures to consider. My question to you is how much of the Olivet discourse do you see fulfilled. Matt.24 Mark 13 Luke 21
I think the dialogue Jesus gave was fulfilled in the contemporary generation leading up to and wrapping up the destruction of the temple in AD 70. Furthermore, so it was quoted!
Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
As for addressing the resurrection scriptures past or future; I examined both sides of the issue and to be honest I'm somewhere in the middle. What comes into play is the nature of the coming of Christ and the resurrection. We can get to this later!
You coupled Dan.12:7 and 1 Peter 2:9.10 this displays in the future Christians, God holy people made up of Jews and Gentile, will be completely shattered. Maybe you can give me the gist of your take on those scriptures. I await your response. God Bless Samuel
BT… Greetings!
Much of the Olivet discourse applied to 70CE, as I have conceded many times in my discussions with you. So it should have! Jesus was speaking to Jews, after all, and their time was at hand as God’s Chosen People, as was stated in the Parable of the Landowner:
Matthew 21:42-43 (New American Standard Bible)
“Jesus said to them, ‘Did you never read in the Scriptures,'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?’Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”
70CE marked the end of the Jewish System as the earthly representative of God’s Kingdom. But by no way did that end God’s Kingdom representatives; no, but it began anew via Jesus and the Apostles, and remains so to this very day.As for Romans 11:1-2, however, it is important to consider the entire Chapter in order to derive its message. As it goes, the Apostle Paul was concerned with the prevailing attitude of the Gentile converts; it appears that they were holding the Jews in contempt and thinking themselves much better than Jews. Paul drew their attention to the example of Elijah when he was of the opinion that he alone was left serving God. God, however, corrected Elijah by saying that He had “kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” In verse 5 Paul compares Elijah’s time with “the present time,” there being “a remnant” of Jews that remain faithful to God and have accepted Jesus as the Son of God. We know this to be true, of course, because the twelve Apostles, chosen by Jesus, were all Jews; truly, then, a “remnant” of Jews were spared from remaining within the ousted Jewish System.
God, therefore, never did abandon His People. They abandoned Him! As Jesus made clear, it was “the Kingdom of God” that was taken away from them, that being their status as God’s representatives on earth with all associated blessings. Now, that position would be filled by Jesus and His faithful footstep followers, including Gentile and Jews that accepted Jesus as the Son of God. Although the Jews failed to keep their obligation to remain loyal to God and lost out as a nation, God did keep His promise to Abraham by preserving a remnant to serve Him in the new covenant established by Jesus at the Last Passover with His Apostles.
As for Daniel 12:7 being connected to the shattering of God’s Holy People, that, too, connects to the resurrection as can be seen from verse 13. In this verse, Daniel is told to “go your way to the end” (I have to assume the “end” being referred to was the end of Daniel’s life) then he would “rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.” Since Daniel has not risen yet, the end of the age did not end in 70CE, at least not the “age” where Daniel receives his “allotted portion.” That “age” is yet future.
1 Peter 2:8 speaks of the rejection of the House of Israel because of their “disbelief” and their being replaced with Spiritual Israel, “a Chosen Race (made up of Natural Israelites and Gentile believers) a Royal Priesthood, A Holy Nation, A People for God’s Own Possession.” (verse 9) The question is, where did that Holy Nation go to? Are they here on earth today? If so, where?
Jesus answered that question:
Matthew 24:31 (New American Standard Bible)
“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.” (see also Matthew 13:24-30, 26-43, specifically verse 41)True Believers have been scattered over this earth. The reaper are angels that gather the elect at the end of the age, still ahead.
God bless!
Greeting Samuel
You're connecting the dots and I agree with much of what you said Sam; Good stuff! Nevertheless, you're connecting Daniel 12 with his resurrection and shattering God's holy people as future Christians. This I don't have the same opinion with!
If God's holy people in Peter are Christians, who they are, then by placing them in our future expectations it means at some later appointment they will be shattered or scattered. This could become problematic if you get my drift.
In other words the only consistency is if the Angel in Daniel is speaking of AD 70 and shattering God's holy people to be Jews than Daniel is already resurrected. The only way out of this predicament is to take Daniel chapter 12 and split it in two.
You asked where did that Holy Nation go to? Are they here on earth today? If so where?
I would like to consider some of them landed in this website where we generously share our faith. Here are some things to address!
What was the expectation Jesus gave the Christians before AD 70? Matthew 16:27-28
If the book of Revelation was written before AD 70, which I think it was why the silence after that event.
Good Bless
BT… Greetings!
The resurrection IS important when considering prophetic events, because it points ahead, past 70CE, and signals the beginning of the great tribulation that will inflict the entire world. Look closely:
Daniel 12:1-2 (New American Standard Bible)
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.”The tribulation the Jews had to face in 70CE, even the tribulation they experienced during Hitler’s reign of terror, is but a drop in the bucket compared to what is coming. The Scripture tells us that this event will “be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation.” And further proving that this event is yet future, the second verse connects it with the resurrection. We know this resurrection of “both good and evil” has not yet taken place, therefore, it must point into the future.
John 5:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.”Where God’s Holy People today? First, let’s answer the question: Who are God’s Holy People today?
The Scriptures answer:
Romans 2:27-29 (New American Standard Bible)
“And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.”Galatians 3:28 (New American Standard Bible)
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”So, then, where are they? Again, the Scriptures give the answer:
Matthew 24:31 (New American Standard Bible)
“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”Followers of Jesus are currently scattered all over the earth. Many of them do not even know it. Some (perhaps many) are still captive to Babylon the Great and remain trapped by false doctrine and haven’t yet tasted the Truth of God’s Word. They look to men for guidance rather than to God’s Word. Our mission is to make every effort to reach them and set them free. (Revelation 18:4)
You ask: “What was the expectation Jesus gave the Christians before AD 70? Matthew 16:27-28”
The ones listening to Jesus and that lived to see the events of 70CE would assuredly connect His words to themselves. However, did Jesus really come into His Kingdom at that time? Recall the Scripture:
Luke 20:42-43 (New American Standard Bible)
“For David himself says in the book of Psalms, “THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
‘SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.’”Has the enemies of Christ been destroyed at this point of time? I think the answer is no. If you check through the Scriptures, BT, you will find that the rulership of Christ Jesus begins after Armageddon:
Revelation 20:6 (New American Standard Bible)
“Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”As I’ve pointed out, BT, these events are yet future. The Scriptures, recall, give us a view of the past and the future; in fact, over a thousand years into the future.
Do let me know your thoughts on this.
God bless!
Greetings Sam
Become aware of something you may have overlooked and why time statements are so essential. You referenced (Luke 20:42-43) the coming of the kingdom with Christ putting all his enemies under his feet and inserting them in our future. Let’s see! 1 Cor.15:25, 26 compare Col. 2:15 Paul said Christ “has” put all His opponents under His feet. And Col. 2:15 confirms them disarmed at the cross.
In the resurrection chapter the sting of death is the Law. 1 Cor.15:55. As long as the Law stood, and it did in Paul’s report, the power of death had its hold. The death I’m introducing is spiritual death only and the raising up to God in heavenly life. The Old contract with the Law was fading and the New Agreement was soon to be established. Heb. 8:13.
You referenced John 5:28-29 of a coming Judgment of the good and bad. But as you know the dead cannot hear the voice of Christ or any other voice. We know the spiritually dead can (John 5:24, 25) and by doing so enter eternal life or the “life of God” Eph. 2:1 4:18
I consider the first resurrection has already occurred. Christ is the first resurrection and those who have part in it, or are in Christ, will never die spiritually speaking. They have been buried with him in his death.
John 11:25 Col 1:18 Rom 6:4I believe it’s imperative to understand when reading scripture not to say I didn’t see this or I didn’t see that (Matthew 24:34) when discussing Covenant Eschatology. Many make a star wars epoch when reading Revelation and by doing so eradicate time statements God injected into scripture to be understood by those who read it at the time it was written. They pick up the daily News Paper and believe we are living out the inspired book in our time.
What’s important is what the bible says especially when presenting time statement. Of course this applies to both of us Sam. In other words every time we see shortly, soon, at the door, quickly etc and say a day is like a thousand years in God’s eyes just doesn’t work when presenting them. And takes away the expectation of the contemporary generation Christ lived in leading to a misunderstanding of the clear word of God. God can tell time!
Let me know your thoughts and God Bless
BT… Greetings!
The Scriptures give no support to your idea that the First Resurrection has already occurred. And it wasn’t Jesus that subjected His enemies as a “footstool under His feet” but, in fact, it was God, Jesus’ Father that brings this about.
Luke 20:42-43 (New American Standard Bible)
“For David himself says in the book of Psalms, “THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
‘SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.’”I agree that this statement is difficult to grasp due to the Translators feeling uneasy with the Divine Name of God Almighty being considered “ineffable” by the Jewish Scribes, I believe. However, the first “Lord” mentioned in this verse should read “Jehovah” or “Yahweh,” and the second “Lord” was Jesus Christ, God’s “only begotten Son.”
What this means, BT, is that the enemies of Christ Jesus have yet to be subjugated by God. Now unless you consider the Roman Armies of 70CE fulfilling that prophecy (which would mean that the Jewish Nation itself were the enemies of Christ) and that the Roman Army served as God’s instrument (which it did in a sense) to mete out vengeance, but that would still leave out Armageddon and the following thousand year reign of Christ and the “elect.”
Some might believe that Jesus began His reign over the earth as soon as He arrived back in Heaven to sit at the “right hand’ of His Father. But there’s something amiss with that idea. Look at what the Scripture tells us about that King and His reign:
Isaiah 9:6-7 (Darby Translation)
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty ùGod, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.”The question arises: Where is this “peace” prophesied within this verse? Do you see any signs of that throughout the past two thousand years? I haven’t read any such detail in the pages of history to suggest peace being enjoyed by this world over that time.
The conclusion is that Jesus did not nor has not begun His reign over the earth to this very day.
What, then, about Paul’s statement that you made reference to:
Colossians 2:14-15 (New American Standard Bible)
“…having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.”When Paul uses the words “hostile to us” he is obviously speaking about the Israelites and the Mosaic Law, and how ineffective it was toward those under its covenant; that ineffectiveness was due to mankind’s imperfection and inability to comply with those “decrees.”
As for disarming “the rulers and authorities” we see no evidence that the Roman Army being disarmed, so it cannot be making reference to them. It would appear, then, that his remark was aimed at the Jewish religious leaders and other Government officials that had to do with the crucifixion of Jesus, in that they were unable to defeat Him nor His purpose, not even by killing Him.
When the Apostle John was given the vision of things to come in the Revelation account, the resurrection had not yet begun. We can see this is so by the following Scriptural passage:
Revelation 6:9-11 (Darby Translation)
“And when it opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held; and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O sovereign Ruler, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell upon the earth? And there was given to them, to each one a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until both their fellow-bondmen and their brethren, who were about to be killed as they, should be fulfilled.”As far as I know, BT, “their fellow-bondmen” are still being killed off in this world, so I cannot agree with you on your belief that the first resurrection began back then, with, of course, the exception of Jesus.
All things considered, BT, there is much left to take place before the “end of the age” arrives. I am certain, however, that it will be the destruction of Babylon the Great that will signal that end and it’s arrival.
As always, your thoughts are awaited. God bless!
Greeting Sam
I have the same opinion the first Lord in Ps 110 is Our Heavenly Father Jehovah and the second Lord mentioned is His Only Begotten Son. The source of all is always the Father.
You pointed out as quoted “The Scriptures give no support to your idea that the First Resurrection has already occurred.”
The first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ, and all those who are joined to Christ take part in it? Scriptures for same were referenced in the last post.
Acts 26:22.23
22 Having therefore met with the help which is from God, I have stood firm unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, “saying nothing else than those things which both the prophets and Moses have said should happen,” 23 namely, whether Christ should suffer; whether he “first, through resurrection of the dead,” should announce light both to the people and to the nations. (Darby Translation)Also 1 Cor 15:20 Col 1:18 Rev. 1:5, 6
You said: “Some might believe that Jesus began His reign over the earth as soon as He arrived back in Heaven to sit at the “right hand’ of His Father. But there’s something amiss with that idea. Look at what the Scripture tells us about that King and His reign: Isaiah 9:6-7”
These scriptures in Isaiah provide your theology a full-size problem. If I’m correct you believe Christ will reign for a literal 1000 years. And when he carries out God’s purpose and puts all enemies under His feet he will hand over the kingdom to God the Father. In other words it will be out of His hands! 1 Cor.15:24, 25
The problem! According to Isaiah 9:6, 7 and Hebrews 1:8 the Messiah’s kingdom has no end; lasting forever and ever.
You asked me Sam where do I see that peace today quoted by Isaiah. Examine the text. When Christ was on the cross do you think one looking at him, even the Apostles, would imagine he was Messiah, sent by God? Or the Son of God who helped created the universe the redeemer of humanity? All they saw was a poor soul who makes huge claims. On the other hand what did God see? Read the text! “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
As I said before Sam what is commanding is not what man sees, you or I, but our Heavenly Father. It’s not about the latest New Paper or the imagination of Man, but the Word of God.
Look at the peace of the New Covenant Testament. It has nothing to do with a world peace as so many uphold. The only peace that counts is not a worldly-wise peace but peace with God through Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have “peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
I suppose the genuine inquiry is; are we enjoying the peace God has given us and making it know to others.
Let me know your thoughts. God Bless
BT… Greetings!
Apparently, most every Believer on these boards have a habit of watering down the Scriptural evidence that points to an upcoming day of vengeance by God against this entire world. It’s called taking an euphemistic view rather than accepting the reality of the situation.
When Jesus prayed to His Heavenly Father He said, “Let Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” I see no sign of that happening on earth at the moment. Yes, I suppose there are those Believers that consider it complete because of their own state of mind, but that doesn’t cut it, at least, not from Scriptural standpoint.
You say: “As I said before Sam what is commanding is not what man sees, you or I, but our Heavenly Father. It’s not about the latest New Paper or the imagination of Man, but the Word of God.”
Jesus said:
Luke 17:26-29 (New American Standard Bible)
“And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.”Peter said:
2 Peter 3:7 (New American Standard Bible)
“But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.”Jesus has yet another task prior to reigning over the earth for one thousand years. He leads the heavenly army to carry out what He and Peter stated: the “destruction of ungodly men.” Revelation 19:11-21 details this event. When Peter states that the present heavens and earth” he means just that… literally. Satan and his followers were to be thrown out of heaven and later, abyssed for a thousand years while the earth rejuvenated via God’s Earthly Kingdom under Christ Jesus and the Faithful.
Why would God’s spirit-directly Word say something that wasn’t exactly true? There are two statements, in particular, that I believe to be non-symbolic in Revelation: those purchased from the earth number 144,000 and that Jesus would reign over the earth for one thousand years. (A day in God’s eyes.) And I believe that reign does not begin until the door to the abyss slams shut on Satan and his motley crew. (Revelation 20:1-4)
People that believe otherwise tend to water down the intent of the Scriptures. Am I wrong? Perhaps. But what if I’m right? Then the Believers of this world are facing one gigantic shock. Why so? Because they have been teaching a lie, teaching another doctrine, not the one Jesus taught. Did Jesus not ask: “When I arrive, will I really find the faith?” Answer: No! At least, not the way He and the Apostles taught it or meant it.
Anyway, BT, let me know your thoughts. God bless!
Hi Samual,
I agree with almost everything you say.
But is it written that Satan's followers will be abyssed?I believe there is much that is not symbolic in Revelation-for example the use of signs in the heavens such as the magi followed to find Jesus and the angelic works. It is a danger to read only as allegory unless scripture says it is so.
Greetings Sam
The coming judgment of the Son of Man and the vengeance of God have been long gone; according to scripture. Consider the following. Luke 21:21 is evidently intended to the then contemporary generation. The terminology is (Let those in Judaea). Without separating verses 21 and 22 it’s apparent Jesus had AD 70 in view.
Observe all things which are written will be fulfilled in verse 22. It doesn’t pronounce some things fulfilled, but all. Christians endeavor to dance around this by splitting these two verses. Or struggle to interpret them by calculating a 2000 year or more additional twofold meaning.
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.22 For these be the days of vengeance, “that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
Once more in the following verses, without tearing them up by dual meaning; Jesus is simple saying that some in his presence would perceive His coming in the glory of the Father. Unless we alter the verses the language is clear void of hindrance.
Matt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Compare
Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
This brings us to the suggestion you stated about the days of Noah and Sodom in Luke 17:26-29 If we observe the following we could ask ourselves who is Jesus referring to about the coming Judgment.
Matt 10:15 I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the Day of Judgment than for that town.
You mention the kingdom not a state of mind and by doing suggesting it's physical. I believe it a spiritual kingdom that has entered the mind of those who are in Christ. This is God’s will who have faith living on earth and continue to live this gift in heavenly life. Who are they? 1 Cor. 2:16; 8:3 John 6:38 Col.1:9
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.Many say they don’t see the kingdom in operation because of the surrounding circumstances in the world. If we back up to verse 20, it speaks for itself.
Luke 17:20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation,
Sams quote
Quote “Why would God’s spirit-directly Word say something that wasn’t exactly true?” You believe in the most symbolic book of the bible that the thousand years reign and the 144000 is a literal number. My question is why and what scriptures do you have to back those claims as literal. God uses a thousand many times as symbolically.
Ps 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
Sams quote
Quote People believing otherwise tend to water down the intent of the Scriptures. Am I wrong? Perhaps. But what if I’m right? Then the Believers of this world are facing one gigantic shock. Why so? Because they have been teaching a lie, teaching another doctrine, not the one Jesus taught. Did Jesus not ask: “When I arrive, will I really find the faith?” Answer: No! At least, not the way He and the Apostles taught it or meant it. Well said Sam!
I stated in the Last post as follows! “These scriptures in Isaiah provide your theology a full-size problem. If I’m correct you believe Christ will reign for a literal 1000 years. And when he carries out God’s purpose and puts all enemies under His feet he will hand over the kingdom to God the Father. In other words it will be out of His hands! 1 Cor.15:24, 25 “
You believe Christ will reign for a literal thousand years.
The problem! According to Isaiah 9:6, 7 and Hebrews 1:8 the Messiah’s kingdom has no end; lasting forever and ever.
You may have overlooked this predicament that should be addressed. You only said a thousand years is like a day, does that mean it’s never-ending.
Your thoughts await God Bless
Quote BT… Greetings!
The first thing that comes to mind after reading your post is this: If God set precedent by destroying the earth and its population with the exception of eight souls because of the ungodly behavior and wickedness of the time; If God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for similar reasons; do you really believe our time will escape His notice or Judgment?
I would like to hear your reply before dealing with the points you have raised.
God bless!
Greeting Sam
Reiterating your last post question
Quote The first thing that comes to mind after reading your post is this: If God set precedent by destroying the earth and its population with the exception of eight souls because of the ungodly behavior and wickedness of the time; If God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for similar reasons; do you really believe our time will escape His notice or Judgment? I would like to hear your reply before dealing with the points you have raised
Good question and glad to do so! In short no one in the past or future will escape God's judgment and punishment.
I'm amazed you asked the question knowing my take on AD 70 where God shattered the temple with fire, flying stones and starvation brought about by the Roman armies and their cohorts.
Those believing in a literal hell fire would ask the equivalent question. How could those who caused so much havoc in their life of sin go scot-free, shouldn't they undergo torment for all eternity? Your inquiry in “not” as horrific but the concept I imagine is still comparable.
There are two roads at the end of the trail, the gift of eternal life enjoyed with our Father Jehovah and his Son. The other is departure out of existence forever.
There you have it Sam God even gives peace to those who will by no means experience the blessing of entering the Family of God and live without end. Also Satan and the fallen angels will join them.
Is this wishful thinking or the words of God?
You got the ball Sam
I stated in the Last post as follows! “These scriptures in Isaiah provide your theology a full-size problem. If I’m correct you believe Christ will reign for a literal 1000 years. And when he carries out God’s purpose and puts all enemies under His feet he will hand over the kingdom to God the Father. In other words it will be out of His hands! 1 Cor.15:24, 25 “
You believe Christ will reign for “only” a literal thousand years.
The problem! According to Isaiah 9:6, 7 and Hebrews 1:8 the Messiah’s kingdom has no end; lasting forever and ever.
You may have overlooked this predicament that should be addressed. You only said a thousand years is like a day, does that mean it’s never-ending
Isaiah 9:6-7 provides your theology Sam a full-size problem. If I’m correct you believe Christ will reign for a literal 1000 years. And when he carries out God’s purpose and puts all enemies under His feet he will hand over the kingdom to God the Father. In other words it will be out of His hands! 1 Cor.15:24, 25 “
The problem! According to Isaiah 9:6, 7 the scripture you referenced and Hebrews 1:8 the Messiah’s kingdom has no end; lasting forever and ever.
You may have overlooked this predicament that should be addressed. You only said a thousand years is like a day, does that mean it’s never-ending.
Isaiah 9:6-7 (Darby Translation)
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform thisHeb 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Let me know your thoughts!
God Bless
BT… Greetings!
Your remark: “There are two roads at the end of the trail, the gift of eternal life enjoyed with our Father Jehovah and his Son. The other is departure out of existence forever.”
What you seem determined to avoid is just “how” that “end of the trail” comes about. The Scriptures make it clear that it is God’s Day of Wrath (Armageddon) against this entire planet is what brings this trail to an end. (Revelation 16:16; 19:11-21) You keep placing this event back in 70CE.
We go back and forth on this point and never have agreement. You’re stuck in the past; I focus on the future when God’s Kingdom under Christ Jesus and the faithful reign over the earth for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4-6) The earth’s population at that time will consist of those that are spared at Armageddon, just as the Scripture points out:
Revelation 7:9,14 (New American Standard Bible)
“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands… I said to him, ‘My lord, you know.’ And he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’”Considering the above verses, Let’s look at how your rendition should play out IF all this took place in 70CE. All those destroyed by the Romans at that time must have been the “evil ones.” That would then leave only those “clothed in white robes” who “have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” As you can see by history, this did not take place. These events must take place, if not in the past, then it must be yet future.
Your remark regarding my reference to Armageddon: “Your inquiry in “not” as horrific but the concept I imagine is still comparable. Your inquiry in “not” as horrific but the concept I imagine is still comparable.”
That’s just exactly how Jesus painted the picture for us; recall:
Matthew 25:41,46 (New American Standard Bible)
“Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels… These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”You seem to place this depiction of what waits for those in opposition to God’s Kingdom as something I have dreamed up; but that, as you can see, is not true! Jesus and the Apostles plainly stated what was to take place in the future, and it is you that twist their words to suit your rendition of future events.
Now, let’s look at another point you have: “You believe Christ will reign for “only” a literal thousand years.”
Why do I believe that, BT? Here’s your answer:
Revelation 20:4-6 (New American Standard Bible)
“Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”You quote Scriptures that suggest otherwise:
“The problem! According to Isaiah 9:6, 7 the scripture you referenced and Hebrews 1:8 the Messiah’s kingdom has no end; lasting forever and ever.”
Seeing that God’s Holy Spirit inspired the writing of the Scriptures, and seeing that God is a God of Order, then a logical conclusion must be available.
What we know is this:
1 Corinthians 15:28 (New American Standard Bible)
“When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”How, then, are we to understand the seeming variance between Isaiah’s record and the Revelation account? Look at what the Prophet Daniel says:
Daniel 2:44 (New American Standard Bible)
“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.”You will notice that it is God that sets up the everlasting Kingdom, not Jesus. And, as we have already noted, God has placed Jesus and the Anointed Ones to rule over the earth for a “thousand years.” Therefore both Scriptures are in harmony once you understand how it is brought about. The Kingdom will be and everlasting Kingdom. Jesus rules that Kingdom for a thousand years serving as both King and High Priest as He brings humanity back on track as God intended.
There is no disunity within Scripture, just our lack of understanding. And as Daniel made clear, BT, the events leading to the establishing of that everlasting Kingdom of God begins with the crushing of all earthly kingdoms that currently exist. Hence: Armageddon.
God bless!
[/B]Greeting Sam
Sam said……….
Quote What you seem determined to avoid is just “how” that “end of the trail” comes about. The Scriptures make it clear that it is God’s Day of Wrath (Armageddon) against this entire planet is what brings this trail to an end. (Revelation 16:16; 19:11-21) You keep placing this event back in 70CE. Bringing up AD 70 in the last post had nothing to do with the trail ending, except for those who lost there lives then. God will judge all men after they breathe their last breath. Then God decides who will live again or go out of existence. Putting the horse (Armageddon) before the cart is the reason we go back and forth. Read on partner!
1 Cor 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At “that time” each will receive his praise from God.
Rom 2:16 This will take place “on the day” when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Sam said………..
Quote We go back and forth on this point and never have agreement. You’re stuck in the past; I focus on the future when God’s Kingdom under Christ Jesus and the faithful reign over the earth for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4-6) The earth’s population then will consist of those that are spared at Armageddon, just as the Scripture points out If you’re willing to go back to the verses in question (Isaiah 9:6, 7 Hebrews 1:8) let’s clear some things up. But prior to doing so let me permit you to recognize I appreciate your biblical concept. I imagine it’s vital to know the other opponents position, and you are a worth opponent, by considering your views.
Christ rules from heaven with a literal 144000 worthies and rules above the earth for one thousand years. For that period of time Satan is bound powerless to deceive. The people on earth are rehabilitated and receive their Salvation because they sin no more. After the 1000 years are up the monster is loosed from his detention center to deceive the Nations. Countless of those, like the sand of the seashore, renewed trail Satan and encircle the camp of God’s holy people. But fire comes down from heaven and destroys them. This opens the way for a New Heaven and a New Earth where the human race will exist eternally.
Let me know your thoughts Sam if I’m on track so we don’t go back and forth. It may be good to present a brief summary of what you consider I believe; assisting us to have a more fruitful dialogue so we don’t go on suppositions.
God Bless
BT… Greetings!
As you are well aware, the whole purpose of Scriptural debate is as follows:
2 Corinthians 10:4-6 (New American Standard Bible)
“…for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.”1 Corinthians 1:10 (New American Standard Bible)
“Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.”Considering all the debates on various topics that we have discussed or have witnessed on these Bible Discussion Boards, it becomes readily discernable that “agreement” is illusive. Many have opinions that they have formed by reading the Scriptures and have posted them on site and met with fierce opposition from those with other opinions. In short, they cannot agree.
Why, then, does this happen? Again, we can only surmise that certain brothers and sisters in Faith are being kept back from this knowledge for reasons unknown to us, but are valid from God’s standpoint. See what Jesus said:
Matthew 13:10-12 (New American Standard Bible)
“And the disciples came and said to Him, ‘Why do You speak to them in parables?’ Jesus answered them, ‘To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.’”John 12:39-40 (New American Standard Bible)
“For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, ‘HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.’”As with the 1st CE nation of Israel, there were reasons why God “blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts.” I believe the same is true in what we see happening today within the congregations of Christian believers. They are limited in what they can understand for reasons only God and Jesus know.
The part where most believers differ from my understanding of the Scriptures is the problem here. Like you (I believe this is your take on this matter) they believe God’s Judgment Day is when everyone, living or raised from the dead, will be judged worthy of life or not. This is only partly true. The flood of Noah’s Day was a judgment day as was the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Jude confirms this fact:
Jude 1:7 (New American Standard Bible)
“… just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.”Many use the word “example” as not meaning the real thing; however, other definitions given for example is “precedent” which, in law, means “model” or “pattern.” I suspect “precedent” to be the real truth.
That means, BT, that Armageddon will be a judgment day, too. Those being destroyed at that time will, in fact, be subjected to the “second death” from which there will be no resurrection. I know that you and many others believe otherwise. That’s where we have a definite disagreement. But Jesus supports this point in Matthew 25:41 &46 as He does when praying to His heavenly Father of Judas:
John 17:12 (New American Standard Bible)
“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.”Correct me if I am wrong in my assessment of or differences.
God Bless!
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