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Preterism in bible camps means the majority of bible prophesy was already fulfilled. There are those who go beyond that notion and consider all bible prophesy fulfilled. Both concepts consummate the fulfillments of these predictions when Rome brought an end to the Jewish economy and temple in AD 70 as Jesus said. Matthew 24.
When I ventured the preterist view it was only a novelty. What I believe now is the importance of it which many fail to see because of their paradigm. “Unless one believes they can’t be wrong they will never be right.” I found this true in my journey for truth.
In Jesus own words he said “John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.” KJV If one doesn’t consider bible time statements, audience relevance along with scriptural pronouns in scripture then this post will have no significance, and should not post or read further.
One of the works the Father gave Jesus to do was judgment. John 5:22 Moreover, the Father Judges no one, but has entrusted all Judgment to the Son, In reading Matthew 23 this judgment is made apparently within the lifetime of those accused. Matt 23:36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. NIV
BT
Hi BT,
Mt 23
39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.Is this also fulfilled??
Hi Nick
I don't believe in a second chance future Gospel after a physical resurrection: Matt 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed (is ) he that cometh in the name of the Lord. ASV
After a week of passion Jesus did not openly reveal himself to those he held his hand out attesting his Messiahship. The day of His Mercy had gone by to acknowledge him. They were about to crucify the Son of God who offered them protection. Matthew 23:37
One does not get gain favor with God by just saying “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” Unless some action is taken and one acknowledges who Jesus said He was. A good number of those listening to His words failed to do. Moreover, by doing so you as a Nation would face long sufferings by the Roman armies and their cohorts before and till the final destruction of Temple. Matthew 24
Jesus offered them the only means of deliverance from their transgressions to a life of peace with God by Atonement. Romans 5:1.
As to your question in the case of those who heard the words of Christ before or after his death and didn’t accept them, it had gone by in more ways than one. Nevertheless, those same words apply to us today.
BT
Hi BT,
It is easy to develop a scriptural rationalisation for every doctrinal view men develop.I believe Jesus was speaking to Israel as a whole and prophesying their eventual repentance at his final return.
Hi Nick
The same issue Paul addressed for the restoration of Israel in Romans chapter 11 which will only lead us into a different topic. Israel will never again be in a favored position with God.
Matthew 23:39 in my estimation doesn’t suggest that all Israel will eventually turn to God. This would make a class distinction between them and Gentiles. Sure all Israel will be saved if we refer to it as the Israel of God made up of both Jew and Gentile.
Nick is there something else you see in Matthew chapter 23 not speaking of a Judgment upon Israel as a Nation and referring to a future restoration. Matthew 22:17; 23:38; 24:2 Luke 21:22
BT
Hi BT,
While the generation of Jesus deserved judgement yet on the cross Jesus interceded for them.
“they know not what they do”There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in Christ.
But rebellious Israel is to repent at his return.Zechariah 12
1The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Hi Nick
It is not clear whether Jesus referred to the Jew or Roman soldiers, or both. If a Jew Paul is a good example of God's forgiveness, and we can add 1 Cor. 2:8 But there is no excuse for sin and an evil heart. There were many who repented at Pentecost and in the judgment it will be Christ who judges the heart of man or women Jew or Gentile without favoritism. Rom 2:11 Col 3:25 Acts 10:34
Only those who are in Christ are the true Israel in the eyes of God. Not all Israel is Israel. Romans 9:6 Zech. 2:11-12 So the ones blessed in Zechariah are those remnants of Israel that are in Christ. There is nothing geopolitical or genealogical about the kingdom or children of God.
BT
Hi BT,
Christ's intercession would seem to be towards the yet unrepentant.
False Israel is not in Christ and remains as His chosen but rebellious people.Hi Nick
Dosn't seem that way!
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
BT
Hi BT,
The branches that were cut of have yet to be regrafted into the vine.
Rom11
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Hi Nick
This was an individual reference not nationalistic or geographical futures prophecy. Paul's main concern was the hope of Israel so all would have its fulfillment.
Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Luke 21:22
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.Nick if all that the Prophets and Moses predicted are not fulfilled does this mean were under The Law as said by Christ.
Read these scriptures together again because heaven and earth are still here.
BT
Quote (before Time @ Oct. 20 2008,00:15) Hi Nick This was an individual reference not nationalistic or geographical futures prophecy. Paul's main concern was the hope of Israel so all would have its fulfillment.
Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Luke 21:22
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.Nick if all that the Prophets and Moses predicted are not fulfilled does this mean were under The Law as said by Christ.
Read these scriptures together again because heaven and earth are still here.
BT
Greetings BT…..This an extraordinary weave of scripture and I might add masterfully argued….I have one question in light of your presentation…..Where is the Hope that the scriptures offer.
I would think the majority of scripture is still yet to be full filled and the true Identity of Israel is eminent….The duality of scripture is a testimony to this fact….Hi BT,
Has the Law disappeared?
It has never lost it's extraordinary value as a schoolmaster.
We were never under it and now it only rules those who ignore the gospel and choose that rule.Lk21
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
The time of vengeance is linked to the return of King Jesus.
Hi Nick
I have the same opinion the scriptures you presented were connected to the return of Son of Man in vengeance (judgment) and it’s completion by the fall of Temple in AD 70 by the Roman armies in their lifetme Matthew 10:23;16:27-28;26:64
Lk21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Christ was writing to real living breathing people of His day to warn them of the coming onslaught.
Luke 23:27 And there followed him a great multitude of the people, and of women who bewailed and lamented him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luke 21:32 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.
BT
Hi BT,
Seeing roman armies has nothing to do with seeing the Lord.Context
The generation that sees the return of Yeshua will not pass away before the fulfillment.
Lk21
29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Hi Nick
God's Judgment on Israel wasn't intended for the Roman armies to see Christ literally; it was for the then living Jews to (see) realise His presents ( parousia) with their eyes of understanding.
This was done by Jehovah in the past when he used the Egyptians to carry out His purpose. Moreover, notice it speaks of Jehovah riding on a cloud.
Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. Isa 19:1
“Yahweh is seen advancing to Egypt for the purpose of confounding its idols, and inflicting punishment.”
Matt 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”
Question Nick how was Caiaphas going to see the Son of Man coming in our generation or a future generation.
BT
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