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Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 16 2007,18:25) Quote So what was Mary's role Steven? Was it all a lie to you? Will you continue to deny the virgin birth and view Yeshua as someone who floated down from heaven and took possession of a flesh tent? Quote
Hey, at least Mary was there to see her son die. But she wasn't his mother at that time anymore, he was something else by then, right?Kejonn;
Don't flatter yourself with your false humility. Take the mote out of your own eye first. I don't claim the humility of Moses, but I could go through your posts and point out what appears condescending to me, too.
Take a lesson from T8 if you don't believe it from me. Read the following:
Quote Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2007,05:41)
Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jn 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.If these scriptures were read to someone who knew nothing about the Bible or to a child or to someone who isn't tainted with previous bias one way or the other, that person would think that Jesus lived in heaven with his Father.
I totally agree david.
It seems to me that some are teaching the following:
Jesus didn't return to the glory that he had BEFORE with the Father
That he wasn't the literal firstborn of all creation, rather in privilege only
That he didn't have divine nature and become nothing by coming in the flesh
That he didn't come down from heaven
That he isn't wisdom from God
That he isn't the root of David
That he didn't exist before Abraham
That God didn't create all things through him and for him
That he wasn't the rock that accompanied the children of Israel
That he doesn't have preeminence (first place) in all things as this obviously excludes being the first of God's works
That God cannot have been known pre 2000 years ago, if only he can reveal God
In other words the opposite of what scripture says.
This is surely very suspicious and similar behavior to the Trinitarians. They too teach a bunch of stuff that is contrary to scripture.Trinitarianism or Unitarianism?
I say none of the above. Unless these groups can give some compelling evidence that these texts are not translated correctly, then those who are of the truth should build their doctrine from scripture, not from their own or someone elses' understanding.
This is a perfect example as to why I oppose denominations and cults. They set the truth, then make scripture fit inside.
Finally, I will never apologize for declaring the truths that Jesus Christ revealed of himself and his Father. I've seen your kind before, when you can't counter what the scriptures say, you claim to be insulted or deny the scripture says what it says.
Jesus ascended to where he was before-truth-With the Father from the foundation of the world- truth.
Mr. Steve
No false humility. I just dislike when people resort to insulting when they can't win someone to their side. And if I have been condescending towards you, I apologize. It is a weakness of mine when I'm insulted that I tend to insult back.Like I said, I could debate you longer than you could keep up because I rather like debating, but when people start insulting it is no longer a debate — it is a mud-slinging contest. I don't participate in those.
And finally, I don't take lessons from men unless their lessons line up with scripture. I learned that lesson after all of the church doctrines started tumbling down around me.
With that, I bid you farewell. You can sling your insults towards others now.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2007,10:40) Hi Ken, Again, I appreciate you discussing this with me.
Quote Please tell me why do you think Jesus flesh was special except for not having sin?
Because he was conceived by God Almighty and Mary. Now, that's special!Quote Is there scripture that says His flesh was special? I don't have the scripture but I believe it says He was ordinary.
Again, Jesus was conceived by God! You can find this account in the gospels.Quote We will be complete having a body with NO sin.
Yes, won't that be grand? Thank the LORD. But you see, Jesus was born with the ability not to sin. Sure he was tempted, and he could have given in, but to him the Spirit was given without measure. He did not have to be born-again before he died on the cross. We, on the other hand, have to be born-again before we die. What do you think the difference is? Why didn't Jesus have to be born-again? Why do we have to, and he didnt'? Curious question for those who believe he was just like us in every way……
Adam was the father of man created by God alone with no Mary. What happened? Wasn't Adam special?What you are saying is that Jesus had an advantage over Adam. Is that what you are saying?
Again as you once said If Jesus was the Son before becoming flesh then that would not be fair. If Jesus had an advantage over Adam would that be fair? What chance did Adam have if what you say is true.
Again Satan didn't complain that Jesus was part God. He complained to God when God showed Job favor. Wouldn't he have complained if God stuck part of Himself to be tempted?
Isn't that cheating? Sort of putting a NFL Quarter back in with the little league.
Did Jesus have an advantage over Adam?
I say no Jesus did not have an advantage over Adam because to me then Jesus' sacrifice would not be valid.
Hey Ken,
Maybe Yeshua was Ezekiel. After all, “son of man” was found in 93 verses in the book of Ezekiel and 84 times in the NT (one was not Yeshua though). So you can add that to this list: Michael, the Word, Melchizedek, Ezekial and God. Maybe he is all of them?
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 17 2007,12:04) Hey Ken, Maybe Yeshua was Ezekiel. After all, “son of man” was found in 93 verses in the book of Ezekiel and 84 times in the NT (one was not Yeshua though). So you can add that to this list: Michael, the Word, Melchizedek, Ezekial and God. Maybe he is all of them?
Back in Jesus' day they thought he was John the Baptist, Elijah…..I've heard some think Jesus is David? Goodness the list does go on, doesn't it.
I think we should start a thread entitled: Which Jesus do you believe in? And everyone should give a detailed description of their Lord (structuring it so we all answered the same, set questions). I bet we would be shocked at how many Jesus' are floating around on this site.
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2007,11:54) What you are saying is that Jesus had an advantage over Adam. Is that what you are saying?
Yup
Through Jesus, God has qualified us to share in the inheritence. Adam could not have done this for us.
Kejonn
You say…
Quote
Did I say he sinned? Nope. Did you sin the very first day you came from your mother's womb? No, but you had in you the propensity to sin. As did Yeshiva. So he was not made with sin, nor are we. We choose to sin. He overcame.For your information we are born in sin. Yeshua wasnt!
Remember the virgin birth?
So again your interpretation of Heb 2:17 is not what the writer intended. You read into the text again…
1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.Unless you say Christ was born in sin also…
2 Cor 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in himSo we see that we are not like him in every way as you suppose the writer of Heb is saying.
For “All things”would include sin and imperfection would it not?
Now lets read the context of your passage…
Heb 2:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.And yet we read…
Heb 1:4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him
(Another nagging pre-existence scripture)He was made lower than the Angels and yet he was made better and in fact the Angels are commanded to worship him.
Is there any other man that you know the Father commands the Angels to worship?
Doesn’t look like any man I know. Notice kejonn how the writer is emphasizing his coming into the world as the first Begotten.
“when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world”
Read on…
Heb 2:10 for it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
(What other man is going to do that?)2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
(Ahh now we are getting to the real meaning of Heb 2:17)2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(Here is your sign kejonn, some more extra biblical language, he took part of the same by partaking of flesh and blood.)2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
( Amen we saw the sign but now we have to put on the brakes)he took on him the seed of Abraham. Bingo!
And then we have this…
2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
So it behoved him to be made like his brethren, how?
By taking on the seed of Abraham, the flesh. Therefore confirming Jn 1:14, Phil 2:7 Heb 1:6, Heb 2:9 and Rom 8:3, as coming in the likeness of sinfull flesh.
Context kejonn. Context.
Jesus is the bread of life, The way the truth and the life, the light of the world, the eternal life, the Great Shephard, the Head of the Church, The ressurection and the life, The rock of ages, the Mediator, The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega, wonderfull, councilor, the mighty God, The everlasting Father, the image of the invisible God, the express image of his person, the first born from the dead, the firstborn of all creation, the prince of peace, Emmanuel, and the Word that was with God and was God, and by him all things were created that were created.
Do you know of an other being like that kejonn?
You said…
Quote
No, never said I did.Bingo!
So I repeat…
Where does the scriptures say Jesus had to be like us in every way? It dosnt, thats simply a man made doctrine!
Ill be back!
Quote What would these same people say about the following verses David? Mat 5:13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.
Mat 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Mat 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack youMat 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Mat 10:16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Mat 11:7 As they went away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind?
Mat 12:33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit.
Mat 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Mat 15:26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.”
Mat 16:6 Jesus said to them, “Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
Mat 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”
Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.Joh 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.
Joh 5:35 “He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.
Joh 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”
Joh 7:38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'”
Joh 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Joh 8:52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'
Joh 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:16 “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
Joh 11:11 This He said, and after that He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.”
What would these same people say about the following verses David?
Each of these verses you listed have a word or phrase that is either a metaphor or simile that represents something else. These are “comparisons” used for explaining and teaching.
Salt of the earth, log in eye, pearls, ravenous wolves, etc.
We know that people are not really salt, or wolves, etc.
Now, these two verses:
Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jn 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.In your examples, you could take out the “log in eye” and put “stumbling block” or take out “wolves” and put “bad men” etc.
Where is the metaphor or simile in these verses? These are plain language sentences without colorful imagery or metaphors.Quote The central “problem” for incarnation beliefs is indeed the virgin birth. To admit in their hearts that Jesus underwent a conception is to DENY the Jesus they believe in. Hard as they try, you cannot change the meaning of conception; it is what it is. And furthermore, it is the way in which God wanted his Son to enter the earth……through a women who would contribute to his son her DNA. MANDY, to me, it seems you are hiding behind this conception idea. Yet, i have no idea why or what it means or how this contradicts pre-existence.
Conception: “Fertilisation or fertilization (also known as conception, fecundation and syngamy), is fusion of gametes to form a new organism of the same species. In animals, the process involves a sperm fusing with an ovum, which eventually leads to the development of an embryo. …”
So, “conception” is defined as involving a sperm fusing with an ovum or the fertilization of the egg.
We know that this didn't happen in the normal way. It wasn't at all normal. It was a miraculous conception, with holy spirit overshadowing Mary and without a man's involvement.You continue to stick to that word “conception” yet I don't know why. You direct me to the conception thread, but since you continue to mention it here, why don't you explain here why this idea means you have the correct understanding.
david
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,23:53) Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2007,03:18) Gene, to quote WJ above: BTW! Where does the scriptures say Jesus had to be like us in every way? It dosnt, thats simply a man made doctrine!
Since WJ also had this in his post (and he said thank God Yeshua was not like us), do you and WJ call the Bible man-made doctrine?Heb 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
kejonnNo. But you must because you have added in your “Unitarian” theology into the verse therfore making it man made.
So do you believe Yeshua is like us in everyway kejonn?
Do you want to serve a Jesus that is like us in “Every way”?
But notice kejonn, it dosnt say in “Every way” does it?
But you have interpreted it that way therefore adding to it.
It says (in all things). Meaning he was flesh and blood and tempted in all points as we are.
Why…
Heb 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
So that he could be our High priest.
Heb 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.Thank God he was not like us in every way, for surely he would have sinned!
Quote It seems to me that some are teaching the following: # Jesus didn't return to the glory that he had BEFORE with the Father
# That he wasn't the literal firstborn of all creation, rather in privilege only
# That he didn't have divine nature and become nothing by coming in the flesh
# That he didn't come down from heaven
# That he isn't wisdom from God
# That he isn't the root of David
# That he didn't exist before Abraham
# That God didn't create all things through him and for him
# That he wasn't the rock that accompanied the children of Israel
# That he doesn't have preeminence (first place) in all things as this obviously excludes being the first of God's works
# That God cannot have been known pre 2000 years ago, if only he can reveal GodIn other words the opposite of what scripture says.
–t8
THE SOUND OF APPLAUSE.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2007,15:46) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2007,11:54) What you are saying is that Jesus had an advantage over Adam. Is that what you are saying?
Yup Through Jesus, God has qualified us to share in the inheritence. Adam could not have done this for us.
Quote Adam could not have done this for us. Then even though Adam DIDN'T fall Jesus would still had to have been “born” as part God so we could inherit the kingdom?
Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2007,18:38) Quote The central “problem” for incarnation beliefs is indeed the virgin birth. To admit in their hearts that Jesus underwent a conception is to DENY the Jesus they believe in. Hard as they try, you cannot change the meaning of conception; it is what it is. And furthermore, it is the way in which God wanted his Son to enter the earth……through a women who would contribute to his son her DNA. MANDY, to me, it seems you are hiding behind this conception idea. Yet, i have no idea why or what it means or how this contradicts pre-existence.
Conception: “Fertilisation or fertilization (also known as conception, fecundation and syngamy), is fusion of gametes to form a new organism of the same species. In animals, the process involves a sperm fusing with an ovum, which eventually leads to the development of an embryo. …”
So, “conception” is defined as involving a sperm fusing with an ovum or the fertilization of the egg.
We know that this didn't happen in the normal way. It wasn't at all normal. It was a miraculous conception, with holy spirit overshadowing Mary and without a man's involvement.You continue to stick to that word “conception” yet I don't know why. You direct me to the conception thread, but since you continue to mention it here, why don't you explain here why this idea means you have the correct understanding.
david
Hi David,If Michael the Archangel was transfered into the womb of Mary and became Jesus – this is not true conception.
If God transfered his second person, who is Jesus, into the womb of Mary – this is not true conception.
If there was a preexistent spirit son who was transfered into the womb of Mary – this is not true conception.
The reason I contend for a true conception on the preexistence thread is because depending on what theory you choose for preexistence – it affects your conception view (as you can see above).
Hiding? David, your silly sometimes. I'm not hiding behind anything. Using your definitions and understanding of true conception – can you tell me if your Jesus underwent a true conception? Based on your view of preexistence, I doubt that you can claim your Jesus was conceived, unless of course you change what conception means.
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2007,19:01) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2007,15:46) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2007,11:54) What you are saying is that Jesus had an advantage over Adam. Is that what you are saying?
Yup Through Jesus, God has qualified us to share in the inheritence. Adam could not have done this for us.
Quote Adam could not have done this for us. Then even though Adam DIDN'T fall Jesus would still had to have been “born” as part God so we could inherit the kingdom?
If Adam never sinned we would have never been separated from him. We would have been acceptable.Quote Hi David, If Michael the Archangel was transfered into the womb of Mary and became Jesus – this is not true conception.
And if a man wasn't involved in any way, is it still “true conception.”?
What do your dictionaries say?
t8
You say…
Quote
# That God cannot have been known pre 2000 years ago, if only he can reveal GodThis really is a valid point that the “Unitarians” obviously look over.
Jesus said…
Matt 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.Lk 10:22
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.These passages are not in the GoJ and can not be explained away as a metaphor or a symbol!
If Jesus did not pre-exist then none of the Hebrews including the Prophets and the Kings and Moses etc. could have known God!
Here is one in GoJ…
Jn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.He is the same yesterday, today and forever!
This is why Jesus said…
Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.The bible is a biogrophy of God and Jesus takes claim to it.
He even says “Come to me, that you might have life”.
I dont know of any other man like that!
Quote Hiding? David, your silly sometimes. I'm not hiding behind anything. Using your definitions and understanding of true conception – can you tell me if your Jesus underwent a true conception? Based on your view of preexistence, I doubt that you can claim your Jesus was conceived, unless of course you change what conception means. –Mandy
On the few man made definitions of the English word “conception” that I have found, I don't think those definitions really fit with what we know the Bible says–that Mary remained a virgin and didn't have relations with Joseph.
You say this:
Quote I doubt that you can claim your Jesus was conceived, unless of course you change what conception means. –mandy
But that's my whole point. You can't either. I have no desire to change the english word “conception” or it's meaning.But in Jesus case, God's hand was in play. It wasn't a normal conception or if we must use technical definitions, there was no man's sperm involved. Yet, many definitions include this.
If you are saying that “conception is when fertilization takes place between a man and the womans egg, etc” and that this definition doesn't include pre-existence….
well, God's hand was in play.
And because of that, most technical definitions don't fit anyway.
We understand what the word means without dictionaries. What other word could have been used for this miraculous event?It was a conception, but with a miracle–hence, not a normal conception.
So your definition of a normal “conception” doesn't fit.david
CONCEPTION:
Fertilisation or fertilization (also known as conception, fecundation and syngamy), is fusion of gametes to form a new organism of the same species. In animals, the process involves a sperm fusing with an ovum, which eventually leads to the development of an embryo. …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conception (biology)The beginning of pregnancy, when the sperm cell from the father joins with the egg cell from the mother.
hes.ucf.k12.pa.us/gclaypo/repro/vocab.htmlFertilization. The union of egg and sperm, making the egg an embryo.
http://www.prochieve8.com/consumers/help/links.aspThe joining together of the egg and sperm through to implantation.
http://www.infertilitynetworkuk.com/index.phpQuote (david @ Oct. 17 2007,19:17) It was a conception, but with a miracle–hence, not a normal conception.
So your definition of a normal “conception” doesn't fit.
Of course I disagree with you.The angel told Mary that her cousin (Elizabeth) was pregnant as well. Mary took comfort in this and went to go see her. These women both experienced miracles in their lives. But both of these women conceived.
You say, “It was a conception, but with a miracle…..” OK, I agree. And the miracle was that God, as the source of Jesus, provided what was needed (a sperm). The natural order of things remained the same. She was pregnant for 9 months and delivered a healthy baby boy! There is no reason to believe that something *other* would be growing inside of Mary.
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