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Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jn 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.If these scriptures were read to someone who knew nothing about the Bible or to a child or to someone who isn't tainted with previous bias one way or the other, that person would think that Jesus lived in heaven with his Father.
Kejonn;
Balancing scripture is important. Letting scripture interpret scripture is the best way to interpret it, if there are other scriptures to balance it.
So where in the rest of the Bible you read that Jesus did not pre-exist? What you are stating is that the rest of the Bible doesn't say he did. It doesn't say that he didn't pre-exist so there are no others scriptures that contradict what is written in John.
For example, Hebrews says that Christ was made a priest after the order of Melchizedek, but there is only one other reference in Psalms that is even close to being on point with Hebrews. Why didn't Moses write about a priest coming after the order of Melchizedek, or the prophets, or Jesus. Does it follow then that he is not a priest after the order of Melchizedek?
Where do we read in the Old Testament that Holy Ghost would be poured out with the evidence of speaking in other tongues? Where did Jesus state this? But is it spoken against elsewhere? That's when you start balancing scripture with scripture.
Are there apostles in the old testament? Does that mean the prophets were against apostles because it was written or revealed to them?
Do you believe that Christ revealed truths that were kept hidden from the foundation of the world? If he did, then you can expect to read truth that was not revealed elsewhere.
With respect to pre-existence, do the other gospels state any where that Christ did not pre-exist? Just because they record his birth in Mary, how does that contradict John? Doesn't it just record the fact that he was born of a woman. Does Jesus deny his virgin birth?
A person can only have one origin. When Christ spoke of his origin he said he came down from heaven and came out from God. He didn't cloud his origin with details of his virgin birth in Mary.
Steven
Quote Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jn 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.If these scriptures were read to someone who knew nothing about the Bible or to a child or to someone who isn't tainted with previous bias one way or the other, that person would think that Jesus lived in heaven with his Father.
Thank you, David. Flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee but our Father which is in heaven.
Mr. Steve
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 16 2007,12:53) Kejonn; Balancing scripture is important. Letting scripture interpret scripture is the best way to interpret it, if there are other scriptures to balance it.
So where in the rest of the Bible you read that Jesus did not pre-exist? What you are stating is that the rest of the Bible doesn't say he did. It doesn't say that he didn't pre-exist so there are no others scriptures that contradict what is written in John.
The rest of the Bible does not say we don't pre-exist either, and I have provided verses that would lead one to that belief. Can you defend this then?The Bible does not say that God is not a Trinity, therefore He can be, according to your logic. Thank you for using the same logical fallacy that trinitarians use. Again, you seem to employ the same tactics they do to “prove” your point.
Since Yeshua said he was bread and a door, since other scripture does not tell us that these things are not literal, than I suppose he is bread and a door. I suppose he is a doppleganger then.
So, when the children of Israel were eating manna, where they eating Yeshua's flesh? The Bible does not say it was not his flesh, and Yeshua says he is thr bread coming down from heaven, thus I guess we can believe the manna was his flesh.
Quote For example, Hebrews says that Christ was made a priest after the order of Melchizedek, but there is only one other reference in Psalms that is even close to being on point with Hebrews. Why didn't Moses write about a priest coming after the order of Melchizedek, or the prophets, or Jesus. Does it follow then that he is not a priest after the order of Melchizedek?
Huh? It means that he is not of the levitical order, but after the same order as Melchizedek. Its not in sequential, time lined order.Quote Where do we read in the Old Testament that Holy Ghost would be poured out with the evidence of speaking in other tongues? Where did Jesus state this? But is it spoken against elsewhere? That's when you start balancing scripture with scripture.
Did Yeshua say that scriptures pointed to the Holy Spirit? Nope. He said they testified about him. Read his words, don't make implications.Quote Are there apostles in the old testament? Does that mean the prophets were against apostles because it was written or revealed to them?
Does Yeshua say that scripture testifies of his followers? Nope. He said scripture testifies of him. Again, your reasoning is off base.Quote Do you believe that Christ revealed truths that were kept hidden from the foundation of the world? If he did, then you can expect to read truth that was not revealed elsewhere.
Sure, but he said that scripture (aka the Tanakh) testified of him. You assume that he meant about his nature and origin. That is pure speculation and unfounded. But hey, it supports your theology.Quote With respect to pre-existence, do the other gospels state any where that Christ did not pre-exist? Just because they record his birth in Mary, how does that contradict John? Doesn't it just record the fact that he was born of a woman. Does Jesus deny his virgin birth?
They also did not say that God was not a trinity. Again, you use the same reasoning trinitarians use. Yet you deny the trinity. At this point, I have to ask why? You use their same method of biblical interpretation: the “position from silence”. That is, if the Bible does not specifically say anything against it, then all is fair game.That is why most Christians think the Sabbath has been abolished. They think that the NT does not say to keep it, so it must no longer be in effect. But that is another subject.
Quote A person can only have one origin. When Christ spoke of his origin he said he came down from heaven and came out from God. He didn't cloud his origin with details of his virgin birth in Mary. Steven
So what was Mary's role Steven? Was it all a lie to you? Will you continue to deny the virgin birth and view Yeshua as someone who floated down from heaven and took possession of a flesh tent?Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 16 2007,13:02) Quote Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jn 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.If these scriptures were read to someone who knew nothing about the Bible or to a child or to someone who isn't tainted with previous bias one way or the other, that person would think that Jesus lived in heaven with his Father.
Thank you, David. Flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee but our Father which is in heaven.
Mr. Steve
So now you're Jesus Steven?
KJ,
I've been listening to the debate.The central “problem” for incarnation beliefs is indeed the virgin birth. To admit in their hearts that Jesus underwent a conception is to DENY the Jesus they believe in. Hard as they try, you cannot change the meaning of conception; it is what it is. And furthermore, it is the way in which God wanted his Son to enter the earth……through a women who would contribute to his son her DNA.
Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2007,12:41) Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jn 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.If these scriptures were read to someone who knew nothing about the Bible or to a child or to someone who isn't tainted with previous bias one way or the other, that person would think that Jesus lived in heaven with his Father.
What would these same people say about the following verses David?Mat 5:13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.
Mat 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Mat 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack youMat 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Mat 10:16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Mat 11:7 As they went away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind?
Mat 12:33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit.
Mat 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Mat 15:26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.”
Mat 16:6 Jesus said to them, “Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
Mat 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”
Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.Joh 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.
Joh 5:35 “He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.
Joh 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”
Joh 7:38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'”
Joh 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Joh 8:52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'
Joh 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:16 “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
Joh 11:11 This He said, and after that He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.”
It will be interesting how you think these same people would view these verses…
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 16 2007,13:39) KJ,
I've been listening to the debate.The central “problem” for incarnation beliefs is indeed the virgin birth. To admit in their hearts that Jesus underwent a conception is to DENY the Jesus they believe in. Hard as they try, you cannot change the meaning of conception; it is what it is. And furthermore, it is the way in which God wanted his Son to enter the earth……through a women who would contribute to his son her DNA.
Yes. Catholics put too much emphasis on Mary, these folks act as if she was a lie. Two extremes and both deny the truth of scripture.Hey, at least Mary was there to see her son die. But she wasn't his mother at that time anymore, he was something else by then, right?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2007,05:30) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2007,04:48) The Word became FLESH by God same as the first Adam though using Mary because Flesh had already been created.
I don't believe God “used” Mary as a shortcut to getting Jesus some flesh. I believe there is a significant reason behind the true conception that Jesus underwent. It seems that no one on this site is willing to concede that Jesus was actually conceived. I wonder why? The scriptures testify that he was conceived. The scriptures don't give us any other explaination for conception, they even compare Mary's pregnancy with her cousin Elizabeth!I wonder what is threatened in Christians when they ponder the fact that Jesus was truly conceived, and is truly God's Son? Are they offended that God could actually have a Son? Are they too pridefull in wanting Jesus to be exactly like themselves (not recognizing him for who he is)?
I dare say, if we were to pose the question, “Who do you say that I am?” on this site, we would ALL answer this question differently! None of us here believe in the same Jesus. Possibly IM4 and t8 agree? I don't know. But the rest of us believe in different Jesus'. It's quite incrediable really.
I didn't say Jesus wasn't conceived. Look at it this way the first Adam was created By God~ ALL GOD ~and a little dust. So was Adam the Son of God?Sure God did something to Mary who came from dust in order to create the second Adam.
Please tell me why do you think Jesus flesh was special except for not having sin?
Is there scripture that says His flesh was special? I don't have the scripture but I believe it says He was ordinary. Nothing special about His looks. What was special about Jesus was on the inside NOT the outside.
He is the first born among many brethren. We have been born of the Spirit but as yet we have NO body but when we get our body then we will be like Him.
1Jo 3:2 Dear friends, now we are God's children. What we will be isn't completely clear yet. We do know that when Christ appears we will be like him because we will see him as he is.
We will be complete having a body with NO sin.
Quote Since Yeshua said he was bread and a door, since other scripture does not tell us that these things are not literal, than I suppose he is bread and a door. I suppose he is a doppleganger then. Jesus did clarify the bread of life illustration, as well as the flesh and blood. He said the flesh profiteth nothing, the words I say unto you they are spirit and they are life. Christ was trying to tell them the way to everlasting life was through him.
Christ said he would ascend to where he was before. All the gospels and the book of Acts record the actual event. There was no type, shadow, parable about that. That is the issue. That's his origin-above. That is the check-mate that you cannot counter. Where was he before? Jesus says he was in heaven. John said he came down from heaven. Paul said he was the Lord from heaven. He pre-existed.
Quote The rest of the Bible does not say we don't pre-exist either, and I have provided verses that would lead one to that belief. Can you defend this then? Where did I say we pre-existed?
Quote The Bible does not say that God is not a Trinity, therefore He can be, according to your logic. Thank you for using the same logical fallacy that trinitarians use. Again, you seem to employ the same tactics they do to “prove” your point. Where did I espouse the Trinity?
Quote
So, when the children of Israel were eating manna, where they eating Yeshua's flesh? The Bible does not say it was not his flesh, and Yeshua says he is thr bread coming down from heaven, thus I guess we can believe the manna was his flesh.The Jews stated to Jesus a similar inquiry- Our fathers did eat manna from heaven. Jesus said Moses gave you manna and your fathers are dead. He said he was the bread of life, he that cometh to me shall not hunger or thirst. He did not say he was bread only, but the bread of life, then stated the words he spoke unto them were spirit and life.
Quote That is why most Christians think the Sabbath has been abolished. They think that the NT does not say to keep it, so it must no longer be in effect. But that is another subject. Romans 14:5
Quote So what was Mary's role Steven? Was it all a lie to you? Will you continue to deny the virgin birth and view Yeshua as someone who floated down from heaven and took possession of a flesh tent? Where did I deny the virgin birth? I said the virgin birth is not his origin. Jesus is from above and is the Son of God sent from heaven. All truths which you deny. You believe his sonship originated in Mary which he never taught. He became the Son of Man through Mary but was already the Son of God. That's what I believe, if you want to assert what I believe.
Quote Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2007,12:41)
Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jn 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.If these scriptures were read to someone who knew nothing about the Bible or to a child or to someone who isn't tainted with previous bias one way or the other, that person would think that Jesus lived in heaven with his Father.
What would these same people say about the following verses David?
Mat 5:13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.
Mat 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Mat 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack youMat 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Mat 10:16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Mat 11:7 As they went away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind?
Mat 12:33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit.
Mat 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Mat 15:26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.”
Mat 16:6 Jesus said to them, “Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
Mat 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”
Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.Joh 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.
Joh 5:35 “He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.
Joh 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”
Joh 7:38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'”
Joh 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Joh 8:52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'
Joh 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:16 “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
Joh 11:11 This He said, and after that He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.”
It will be interesting how you think these same people would view these verses…
It's pretty obvious you are in need of milk. For when the time cometh you should be a teacher you have need that one teach you again of the first principles of the oracles of God. That's Hebrews 5:12. I know how you like references.
Stevn
Mr. Steve
Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2007,05:41) Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jn 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.If these scriptures were read to someone who knew nothing about the Bible or to a child or to someone who isn't tainted with previous bias one way or the other, that person would think that Jesus lived in heaven with his Father.
I totally agree david.It seems to me that some are teaching the following:
- Jesus didn't return to the glory that he had BEFORE with the Father
- That he wasn't the literal firstborn of all creation, rather in privilege only
- That he didn't have divine nature and become nothing by coming in the flesh
- That he didn't come down from heaven
- That he isn't wisdom from God
- That he isn't the root of David
- That he didn't exist before Abraham
- That God didn't create all things through him and for him
- That he wasn't the rock that accompanied the children of Israel
- That he doesn't have preeminence (first place) in all things as this obviously excludes being the first of God's works
- That God cannot have been known pre 2000 years ago, if only he can reveal God
In other words the opposite of what scripture says.
This is surely very suspicious and similar behavior to the Trinitarians. They too teach a bunch of stuff that is contrary to scripture.Trinitarianism or Unitarianism?
I say none of the above. Unless these groups can give some compelling evidence that these texts are not translated correctly, then those who are of the truth should build their doctrine from scripture, not from their own or someone elses' understanding.
This is a perfect example as to why I oppose denominations and cults. They set the truth, then make scripture fit inside.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 16 2007,16:27) It's pretty obvious you are in need of milk. For when the time cometh you should be a teacher you have need that one teach you again of the first principles of the oracles of God. That's Hebrews 5:12. I know how you like references. Stevn
Mr. Steve
And you just happen to be one of the most condescending people I've recently debated. You read your own meaning into what people say and then proceed on that belief. You did that to WJ on several occasions an it turned my stomach.You cannot even take a moment and read what I said: I asked David to show me how the same people would interpret the verses I list because every one of them require context and scriptural knowledge. So to list two verses like he did in isolation and say that other people would interpret them in a certain way is dangerous and a very fallacious argument. There are very few verses in scripture that can be taken in isolation to get their true meaning. I think you know that but you'd much rather level insults at people because they don't believe in your theology.
At this point I will no longer debate you in this thread. I could answer you all day long — ask any other I have debated — but your constant underhanded insults have made me decide that my pearls should not be cast in certain places.
Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2007,05:41) Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jn 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.If these scriptures were read to someone who knew nothing about the Bible or to a child or to someone who isn't tainted with previous bias one way or the other, that person would think that Jesus lived in heaven with his Father.
You are right David! Can't argue with scripture they are just too many such as the ones you point out.Being the only Son Born of God then God has a wife? I believe the word existed in some form but what…A Son
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
The Son of MAN was in heaven before. God is flesh?
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
What was Jesus before the world began? The Son of man?(John6:62)
The Word John 1:1? Michael the archangel Rev. 3:14?
It was the word that became flesh. Was it the Son that became flesh? Michael? Whatever the Word is then that is what was before Jesus, right?
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2007,07:36) I didn't say Jesus wasn't conceived.
No bro, I know you haven't said this, but other's have.Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 16 2007,17:16) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2007,05:41) Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jn 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.If these scriptures were read to someone who knew nothing about the Bible or to a child or to someone who isn't tainted with previous bias one way or the other, that person would think that Jesus lived in heaven with his Father.
You are right David! Can't argue with scripture they are just too many such as the ones you point out.Being the only Son Born of God then God has a wife? I believe the word existed in some form but what…A Son
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
The Son of MAN was in heaven before. God is flesh?
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
What was Jesus before the world began? The Son of man?(John6:62)
The Word John 1:1? Michael the archangel Rev. 3:14?
It was the word that became flesh. Was it the Son that became flesh? Michael? Whatever the Word is then that is what was before Jesus, right?
Ken,You should know by now that scripture shows that Yeshua was a shapeshifter! I mean, look at Phil 2:5-8, all of those various forms he assumed. And he could turn invisible too.
This reminds me of some gnostic gospels were Peter and Simon Magus had a battle to see who really was the disciple of Christ. The both went back and forth, performing miracles. Whoever performed the best miracle (according to the bystanders) was the true disciple.
Well, Simon Magus finished by flying around town. But Peter won because he knock Simon Magus out of the air and Sim fell to the ground and broke his leg.
Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2007,05:41) Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jn 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.If these scriptures were read to someone who knew nothing about the Bible or to a child or to someone who isn't tainted with previous bias one way or the other, that person would think that Jesus lived in heaven with his Father.
Funny you should ask if a child read this verses what would they think? Of course children come to the scriptures will no presup's or twisted theology. Would you like to know what my children have said about these verses?As for John 6:62, my daughter (who is 8) has said something like, “Oh, mommy, does this verse mean like when he wasn't alive yet – like when he was still “in” God?” Wow…..
As for John 17:5, my son (who is 10) has said something like, “The Son has his own glory, and God doesn't share his glory with any one, so Jesus must be referring to the glory he was promised. Or it means something totally different that we all don't understand yet. Or the transcriber's copied it wrong!” Oh my! Ponder, ponder……
Hi Ken,
Again, I appreciate you discussing this with me.
Quote Please tell me why do you think Jesus flesh was special except for not having sin?
Because he was conceived by God Almighty and Mary. Now, that's special!Quote Is there scripture that says His flesh was special? I don't have the scripture but I believe it says He was ordinary.
Again, Jesus was conceived by God! You can find this account in the gospels.Quote We will be complete having a body with NO sin.
Yes, won't that be grand? Thank the LORD. But you see, Jesus was born with the ability not to sin. Sure he was tempted, and he could have given in, but to him the Spirit was given without measure. He did not have to be born-again before he died on the cross. We, on the other hand, have to be born-again before we die. What do you think the difference is? Why didn't Jesus have to be born-again? Why do we have to, and he didnt'? Curious question for those who believe he was just like us in every way……Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 17 2007,10:26) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 16 2007,17:16) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2007,05:41) Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jn 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.If these scriptures were read to someone who knew nothing about the Bible or to a child or to someone who isn't tainted with previous bias one way or the other, that person would think that Jesus lived in heaven with his Father.
You are right David! Can't argue with scripture they are just too many such as the ones you point out.Being the only Son Born of God then God has a wife? I believe the word existed in some form but what…A Son
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
The Son of MAN was in heaven before. God is flesh?
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
What was Jesus before the world began? The Son of man?(John6:62)
The Word John 1:1? Michael the archangel Rev. 3:14?
It was the word that became flesh. Was it the Son that became flesh? Michael? Whatever the Word is then that is what was before Jesus, right?
Ken,You should know by now that scripture shows that Yeshua was a shapeshifter! I mean, look at Phil 2:5-8, all of those various forms he assumed. And he could turn invisible too.
This reminds me of some gnostic gospels were Peter and Simon Magus had a battle to see who really was the disciple of Christ. The both went back and forth, performing miracles. Whoever performed the best miracle (according to the bystanders) was the true disciple.
Well, Simon Magus finished by flying around town. But Peter won because he knock Simon Magus out of the air and Sim fell to the ground and broke his leg.
Yes after He was resurrected. Did He change His shape while still flesh? He didn't walk through walls until He was resurrected, right?I don't know one minute it seems all together then the next thing you know it seems to crumble.
I don't believe that Jesus was anymore than a human born without sin. IF He prexisted as “a God” the Word being God and with God. Then as scripture says He emptied Himself of His Godliness and became as the first Adam but did not sin.
Did He have a memory of who He was before becoming flesh?
He said that JTB was Elijah but JTB didn't know that.I believe we are all missing something. What I don't know but there is more than meets the eye here. A deep secret that somehow escapes me. Especially JTB being Elijah and yet not knowing it. May be we were all spirit beings at one time and now having to learn what is right and what is wrong. Or as some has put it that we may learn JOY. You can't know Joy until you have experienced Sadness.
Quote So what was Mary's role Steven? Was it all a lie to you? Will you continue to deny the virgin birth and view Yeshua as someone who floated down from heaven and took possession of a flesh tent? Quote
Hey, at least Mary was there to see her son die. But she wasn't his mother at that time anymore, he was something else by then, right?Kejonn;
Don't flatter yourself with your false humility. Take the mote out of your own eye first. I don't claim the humility of Moses, but I could go through your posts and point out what appears condescending to me, too.
Take a lesson from T8 if you don't believe it from me. Read the following:
Quote Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2007,05:41)
Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jn 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.If these scriptures were read to someone who knew nothing about the Bible or to a child or to someone who isn't tainted with previous bias one way or the other, that person would think that Jesus lived in heaven with his Father.
I totally agree david.
It seems to me that some are teaching the following:
Jesus didn't return to the glory that he had BEFORE with the Father
That he wasn't the literal firstborn of all creation, rather in privilege only
That he didn't have divine nature and become nothing by coming in the flesh
That he didn't come down from heaven
That he isn't wisdom from God
That he isn't the root of David
That he didn't exist before Abraham
That God didn't create all things through him and for him
That he wasn't the rock that accompanied the children of Israel
That he doesn't have preeminence (first place) in all things as this obviously excludes being the first of God's works
That God cannot have been known pre 2000 years ago, if only he can reveal God
In other words the opposite of what scripture says.
This is surely very suspicious and similar behavior to the Trinitarians. They too teach a bunch of stuff that is contrary to scripture.Trinitarianism or Unitarianism?
I say none of the above. Unless these groups can give some compelling evidence that these texts are not translated correctly, then those who are of the truth should build their doctrine from scripture, not from their own or someone elses' understanding.
This is a perfect example as to why I oppose denominations and cults. They set the truth, then make scripture fit inside.
Finally, I will never apologize for declaring the truths that Jesus Christ revealed of himself and his Father. I've seen your kind before, when you can't counter what the scriptures say, you claim to be insulted or deny the scripture says what it says.
Jesus ascended to where he was before-truth-With the Father from the foundation of the world- truth.
Mr. Steve
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