Preexistence

[kejonn]

Some vital things we have to take note of when using the Gospel of John as proof of “pre-existance”: Why did the Synoptics give no hint of this “pre-existance”?  You cannot take one book of the Bible in isolation to form your theology. Also, we have to remember that Yeshua spoke very figuratively. It seems that some people pick and choose what is to be taken literally and what is to be taken figuratively according to what they want to believe. What did Yeshua say in the Gospel of John?

Joh 16:25  “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.

With that in mind, let's look at some examples.

Mat 7:3  “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Mat 5:29  “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Mar 10:25  “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Joh 15:5  “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Mat 10:38  “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

Joh 7:38  “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'”

Joh 10:7  So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

Are all of those things literal? Have you ever seen a log in someone's eye? Are you willing to tear out your eye? Do wealthy people not enter the kingdom of God? Have you taken up any crosses in your Christian walk? Is Yeshua a literal vine and are we literal branches? Do you have actual rivers of living water flowing from you? Is Yeshua a literal door?

I think you understand…

[kejonn]

Quote (PatBiglane @ Oct. 11 2007,15:06)

Dear Group,  I admit it;  I've squeezed in too much info too fast with my previous posts.  Please forgive this imposition…I'm new to this whole blogging thing.  Guess I got a little too excited finding this website blog (there's not too many Christians out there who hold monotheistic beliefs as you do.)  Anyway, after re-reading and considering the previous posts I made, I realize that it doesn't communicate the ideas I had intended very well.  I'll endeavor to write out my thoughts before posting them and see if my 11 Y/0 daughter undertands them before throwing another blog in your face.       CHEERS

Welcome to the board, Pat. Don't worry, your posts are miniscule compared to some of ours .

[Not3in1]

Quote (PatBiglane @ Oct. 12 2007,08:06)

Dear Group,  I admit it;  I've squeezed in too much info too fast with my previous posts.  Please forgive this imposition…I'm new to this whole blogging thing.  Guess I got a little too excited finding this website blog (there's not too many Christians out there who hold monotheistic beliefs as you do.)  Anyway, after re-reading and considering the previous posts I made, I realize that it doesn't communicate the ideas I had intended very well.  I'll endeavor to write out my thoughts before posting them and see if my 11 Y/0 daughter undertands them before throwing another blog in your face.       CHEERS

I second that WELCOME PAT!

Are you kidding? Don't apologize for your post, I found it very interesting. If you don't receive any responses, that doesn't mean folks aren't listening, OK?

Glad you are here!
Love,
Mandy

[Proclaimer]

Quote (PatBiglane @ Oct. 12 2007,08:06)

Dear Group, I admit it; I've squeezed in too much info too fast with my previous posts. Please forgive this imposition…I'm new to this whole blogging thing. Guess I got a little too excited finding this website blog (there's not too many Christians out there who hold monotheistic beliefs as you do.)

Hey Pat, you do have the word 'big' in your name.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 12 2007,02:57)

t8 You know shouting and holoring does not change the truth.

Actually I am not shouting, I am speaking slow as I said I was. Shouting is defined by uppercase letters. The quote below is not all uppercase.

Quote

T h e m o s t H i g h t h e o s i s t h e F a t h e r. S o n s a r e a l s o r e f e r r e d t o a s t h e o s a n d e l o h i m. B u t n o t i n n a m e or t i t l e l i k e t h e F a t h e r.

Can you see that?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 11 2007,23:15)

Besides, this has nothing to do with who is greater. That seems to be your point, but this has to do with pre-existence. Steve brought up that all believers can make the same claim since we are born from above but ours was not a conception in the womb of the Holy Spirit. As I've shown Steve

Hi kejonn.

I said that only because you made the point earlier that Yeshua was born not without a human father making him unique compared to us, and I made a logical statement based on that, that Adam was the same, but he scrored 1 extra point for also not having a human mother. That is if we agree that human flesh is frail.

All I was doing was taking what you said and building on that to see where it could go. It seemed to me that an Adam without sin should be greater than Yeshua if Yeshua didn't have a glorious past that is.

[Proclaimer]

Hi kejonn.

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 11 2007,23:15)

For one thing, he overcame temptation and sin where Adam could not! He was everything Adam could have been. I hope you know that. And I've already pointed out his conception.

OK, so conceptually according to you, Yeshua wasn't greater than Adam but performed better and that makes him greater.

i.e., they are both sons of God, but Yeshua was wiithout sin, whereas Adam failed.

Well according to this line of thought, it would be safe to assume that had Adam not sinned, then Yeshua wouldn't have been necessary, and all that talk of God creating the universe through him and for him, (even before Adam was created) doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 11 2007,23:15)

See above. (1) Yeshua was born of the Holy Spirit and woman, making him “monogenes”. (2) He completely and utterly overcame sin and then died while still perfect for those who were not perfect. Can you name another who these things can be said of?

Hi kejonn.

I agree with this.

But the way you are applying it to your doctrine, leads me to think that Yeshua wouldn't have been necessary had Adam been faithful. And again the verses that talk of God creating the universe through him and for him, were obviously referring to Yeshua or the plan as you believe, but before Adam was created. That doesn't make sense.

So let's recap what you are saying:

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 11 2007,23:15)

Where do you see anywhere in the Bible anything remotely like “and he shall be called the Son of God because he was brought forth from the Father”? Luke 1:35 tells us why he is the Son of God.

Hi kejonn.

I don't say that scripture specifically says that Yeshua was the son of God before being born through Mary. Although that doesn't mean that he wasn't a son. But I won't argue that, as it isn't specifically written.

He was the Logos that was with God, that much we know.

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

His origins are from ancient times.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

He was before Abraham

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

He also accompanied the Iraelites.

1 Corinthians 10:4
and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

He is the root of David and offspring

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

He was before John, yet John was older than the human Yeshua.

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “

God is glorified through Yeshua, now and into the future, as well as before all the ages.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

We can speculate about this and that, but until someone comes up with good reasons as to not believing what the above texts are saying, then why should I depart from that which is written?

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

Quote Did the Hebrews believe in being born again? Did the Hebrews believe in being justified by faith in Jesus Christ? If you're seeking confirmation from the Hebrews with respect to their historical beliefs, they were in the dark. They had the law and many walked with God, but they never had the truth that was given to us in the New Testament that God kept hid in Christ from the foundation of the world. Before you get much further in your insults of the chosen people of God, you might want to actually study the inspired scriptures of the Old Testament. No hint of incarnation or pre-existence anywhere. Unless God wanted to hide things from them?

Kejonn;

Grace to you and peace be multiplied from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

You shouldn't let the word incarnation annoy you. You might like the word dwell or live in, that's fine, it's the same concept, Christ in us as God is in Christ. This has been promised in the scriptures for thousands of years.

There is actually a very well known passage of scripture in Ezekiel about God promising to take out their hearts of stone and to put in a heart of flesh. According to Paul in Hebrews this was the New Covenant in Christ Jesus. He also said I will put me spirit in them and I will be their God and they shall be my people. The new covenant with the house of Israel is to those who believe in Jesus Christ.

There's also a hint in Exodus 22:8 where God said Let them make a tabernacle that I may dwell among them. Its all about God incarnating himself in those who believe. Paul's writing are filled with God inhabiting the believer. Jesus himself said that as the Father is in him and he in the Father, that he and the Father would be in us.

There's no Greek or Plato reasoning here.

Steven

[kejonn]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 11 2007,16:33)

Hi kejonn. Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 11 2007,23:15) For one thing, he overcame temptation and sin where Adam could not! He was everything Adam could have been. I hope you know that. And I've already pointed out his conception. OK, so conceptually according to you, Yeshua wasn't greater than Adam but performed better and that makes him greater. i.e., they are both sons of God, but Yeshua was wiithout sin, whereas Adam failed.

“Performed better”? He overcame the temptation to sin completely, something Adam did not do. And Adam was given only one rule, while Yeshua had to perfectly adhere to God's Law! So I would say Yeshua was certainly the perfect man that Adam never was. Have you ever stopped to think why Yeshua was called the “second Adam”?

Quote

Well according to this line of thought, it would be safe to assume that had Adam not sinned, then Yeshua wouldn't have been necessary, and all that talk of God creating the universe through him and for him, (even before Adam was created) doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Where do you get this universe thing? And the creation Yeshua is involved in the second creation, the spiritual creation. Not the first one found in Genesis. Else, how do you explain the OT verse where YHWH says He created all things by Himself? WJ is right, either accept Trinitarianism or Unitarianism because anything else is full of theological holes.

Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by MyselfAnd spreading out the earth all alone,

Isa 45:12 “It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands And I ordained all their host.

There is not a single instance of anyone else in all of the OT record being involved in the creation except YHWH. But what does the NT say (and they cannot contradict each other or the Bible is invalid)

Joh 14:2 “In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
2Pe 3:13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

What is very, very interesting is that the word “prepare” in John 14:2 and “made ready” are both translated from the Greek word “hetoimazō”. Yeshua says he is going to “prepare” (hetoimazō, future when he said it) a place for us, and Rev 21:2 says that the new Jerusalem was “made ready” (hetoimazō) as a bride adorned for her husband.

The second creation. And according to John 14:2-3, Yeshua IS involved in preparing a place for us.

Scripture must NOT contradict.

LG&LP,
Kevin

[Proclaimer]

I read this from another site.

I though it had some good points.

There are those who have seen the errors of Christian doctrine and come to understand that Yahshua is not God the Father Himself and have reasoned that it logically flows that the idea of preexistence must go… and with that, most of them assume the idea of a virgin conception must go as well. But like so many other things in life, this too does not require it to be an all-or-nothing proposition. There is much middle ground and an understanding possible where all relevant Scriptures and things Yahshua said about himself are satisfied beautifully.

The picture of Yahshua's preexistence and conception in the womb of a virgin do in fact work together in that his preexistence explains why he needed no earthly father to become conceived. But it does not flow that this picture demands Yahshua be YHWH Himself. Among those who argue vehemently against the picture of Yahshua's preexistence and virgin birth, many have been honest enough to admit that they do so for the sole purpose of eradicating any notion of a trinity and any picture of Yahshua being YHWH.

This approach may have the desired effect, but it is dishonest and a bit like executing all suspects in a murder case to make sure you get the one. As will be seen, it is not at all unscriptural for Yahshua to have preexisted and been born of a virgin without making him YHWH.

To further establish that Yahshua had no physical earthly father we need to examine his claims of preexistence. For if he existed before he was conceived in Mary's womb, it logically flows that he had no need of an earthly father. Most Jews and Christians have no trouble accepting the picture of the angels and other created beings existing with God before this creation. God obviously wasn't alone when He said, “Let us create…” So on what grounds shouldn't a Jew consider the possibility of Yahshua being there as well… or even being known as a “son of God”?!

Here is another passage concerning Yahshua's preexistence.

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Yahshua asked them, saying, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call him 'lord' (adoni) saying: 'YHWH said to my lord (adoni), “Sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool”'? “If David then calls him 'lord', how is he his son?” Matthew 22:41-45

Yahshua was quoting Psalm 110 here, and Matthew then goes on to record that the Pharisees couldn't answer him. The only possible answer to Yahshua's question is that David knew the Messiah was already in existence and would have to be incarnated through his descendants some time in the future. Yahshua later said he was both “the (preexistent) root, and the offspring of David.” (Revelation 22:16) But the Pharisees couldn't afford to acknowledge the obvious in Psalm 110. Today, Judaism tries to get around this passage by saying it was not written by David, but written concerning him by others. So where it says, “YHWH said to my lord…”, they say we should understand “lord” to be referring to David. But this Psalm is obviously not speaking about David. The Psalm goes on to say that this person referred to as “lord” was a priest, “forever”! David was not a priest.

Your people shall be volunteers in the day of your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, you have the dew of your youth. YHWH has sworn and will not relent, “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.” Psalm 110:3,4

The Messiah would be both king and priest forever. David was the author of this Psalm and he was speaking of the Messiah. He did so in a manner that clearly indicated the Messiah existed in his time and the Jews of Yahshua's time knew it.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 12 2007,09:22)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 12 2007,02:57) t8 You know shouting and holoring does not change the truth. Actually I am not shouting, I am speaking slow as I said I was. Shouting is defined by uppercase letters. The quote below is not all uppercase. Quote T h e  m o s t  H i g h  t h e o s  i s  t h e  F a t h e r. S o n s  a r e  a l s o  r e f e r r e d  t o  a s  t h e o s  a n d  e l o h i m. B u t  n o t  i n  n a m e  or  t i t l e  l i k e  t h e  F a t h e r. Can you see that?

t8

You know speaking man made doctrines slowly does not make them of God.

So since you did not address the post I will speak it again slowly.

You see the truth is nagging at your conscience like a badger that wont let go.

Who is it that is intellectually challenged and hard hearted?

In light of the truth who is it?

You put Yeshua in the same class of being as the devil and as men.

You say this is qualitative. But you have no proof of that.

There is no example of the word “Theos” found in the NT scriptures asscribed to any other being in a “Qualitative” sence like the Father and Yeshua.

Do you see your delima t8. Or are you to proud to let the word change you?

You are right know arguing the pre-existance of a greater being than all. Yet you say he is “a god” and not “the God”.

You are to proud to believe the translators that translated John 1:1 as they did.

Now you want to argue that through this lessor being than God he made all things.

Yet the Hebrews were monotheist that believed this…

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.

There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

These scriptures bear out that God not only is our only Saviour, but also he says that he alone created the heavens and there is…

“None like him”, “By Myself”. “None Else”. Can you see that?

In light of the above scriptures. How do you reconcile this?

YHWH says he alone is “Creator”, “Saviour”, and “God”, None other, by myself.

How do you explain that this Yeshua you say is “a god” was there with the Father by his side in light of this.

Who is intellectually challenged and stubborn and hard hearted t8?

You should become a “Trinitarian” or a “Unitarian” t8 for the Henotheistic theology has a lot of holes in it.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 12 2007,02:57)

t8 You know shouting and holoring does not change the truth. You see the truth is nagging at your conscience like a badger that wont let go. Who is it that is intellectually challenged and hard hearted? In light of the truth who is it? You put Yeshua in the same class of being as the devil and as men. You say this is qualitative. But you have no proof of that. There is no example of the word “Theos” found in the NT scriptures asscribed to any other being in a “Qualitative” sence like the Father and Yeshua. Do you see your delima t8. Or are you to proud to let the word change you?

I think you are deluded.

There is no badger nagging my conscience and I do not put Yeshua in the same class as the devil and men, except to say that Yeshua came in the flesh. You are either slandering me through ignorance, or you are deluded. I cannot see another option, apart from intentionally misleading my position.

You then say that there is no theos that is ascribed to anyone in a qualitative sense. That is not true. Theos is not exclusively used of The Father and Yeshua. Nor is elohim used exclusively of God.

Anyway, it is written that God is the God of gods. If all other gods are false, then what does that say about the Most High God? Surely not the God of false gods?

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 12 2007,13:03)

t8 You know speaking man made doctrines slowly does not make them of God.

Hi WJ.

The point was that you said I was shouting and now you just ignore your false statement and move onto another false statement.

So it is clear that if you can't get me on one charge you will trump up another and so on.

Well keep going and feel free to crucify me while you are at it. Although that will cost you the price of an air ticket if you don't live in New Zealand.

If they did it to Yeshua then it is expected that the same persecution will follow those who are of Yeshua. Yeshua even said it himself.

So go ahead, but remember this one fact, what you do to me, you do directly to my Lord.

Your choice, so long as you are aware of what you are doing. That way ignorance is no defense.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 12 2007,13:03)

So since you did not address the post I will speak it again slowly.

You mean the same cut and paste post that has been answered many times before?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 12 2007,13:03)

You say this is qualitative. But you have no proof of that. There is no example of the word “Theos” found in the NT scriptures asscribed to any other being in a “Qualitative” sence like the Father and Yeshua.

Well many disagree with your statement regarding John 1:1 for a start. That also includes some Trinitarians too.

You see, if the Word was GOD himself and Jesus was the WORD, then that excludes the Father from being God.

Many read this in a qualitative sense, so that he was divine and then the understanding that the Father is God is not trampled on, and this rendering of John 1:1 is grammatically correct too.

Other uses of theos and elohim are applied to sons of God. This is not saying that they are the Most High God, rather that they have some quality or authority that makes them gods.

After all 'theos' can also be applied to teh following according to some concordances:

the things of God

his counsels, interests, things due to him

whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way

God's representative or viceregent, magistrates, and judges

We also know that those who represent God, or are like God are certainly not false gods. It's just that they are not the Most High God. They are not the source of all good.

[david]

Quote

Can you show me where God would break his natural order of things (what is conceived and given birth is a new individual) and put a preexistent spirit into the womb of a women?

–Mandy

Yes, this is the normal order of things. But what is normal about Jesus birth? What is normal about God's Son being born a human? God doing any of this was not “normal” was it? If your argument is that Jesus could not have pre-existed because it is not “normal” for people to pre-exist, then the same argument could be made of much of the miraculous scriptures. Jesus birth was one of the most unnormal unusal biggest most different event in all of history. It was by no means, standard.

davie.

[david]

Quote

To my knowledge, the Bible doesn't give a definition of “human” per se. However, when Adam was created we know that he had flesh and bone. We know that flesh is what makes up our temporary tent that we live in.

–Mandy

My question to you mandy, is, if the Bible doesn't give a definition of human, why do you so strongly assert that Jesus couldn't be a real true human if he pre-existed; that Jehovah could not transform his spirit life into human form? What exactly do you base this assumption on, if it is not the Bible?

[david]

Quote

Of course I believe that God can do anything he wills. But as I said before, God is a God of order. God does not tell us that Jesus was *conceived* and then change the meaning of conception.

“you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son…”

How do you define conception?

“he took his wife to his home and, though he had not had intercourse with her, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus”

Obviously, this was different than usual.

Surely it was not impossible for the Creator, who designed the human reproductive organs, to bring about the fertilization of an egg cell in the womb of Mary by supernatural means. Marvelously, Jehovah transferred the life-force and the personality pattern of his firstborn heavenly Son to the womb of Mary. God’s own active force, his holy spirit, safeguarded the development of the child in Mary’s womb so that what was born was a perfect human.—Luke 1:35; John 17:5.

[Author]

Posts