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Hi Not3,
I thought it might be productive for us to look exegetically at Philippians 2:5-8. To try to draw conclusion from the grammar and context, rather than just make axiomatically compatible speculations. Maybe I could give you my exegesis and then you could reciprocate? Anyway, here is mine:Philippians 2:5-8
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.Verse 5 – Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus
Paul, in this verse, is setting the context for what is to follow. Verses 3-4 makes apparent that the “attitude” Paul refers to is humility. We are to model ours on that of Christ Jesus, the exemplar. To stress his point, he uses the verses that proceed to show the sheer magnitude of Christ Jesus’ humility.Verse 6 – who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
The word “existed” is Huparcho, it “stresses the essence of a person's nature – the continuous state or condition of something” (cf. William Barclay, The Letters to the Philippians, Colossians, and Thessalonians [Philadelphia: Westminster, 1976], p. 35). Here we see that Paul is not writing of Yeshua's earthly existence. This sentiment is pressed even further by Paul in the back half of the statement. Paul wrote that the Yeshua existed “in the form of God”. The Greek word for form is “morphe” it refers to essential attributes as shown in the form (source). The word 'nature' perhaps captures the true essence of the word (this is how Strong's concordance defines it). So let me try to paraphrase what Paul is asserting here:Yeshua existed [perpetually] in the form [essential attributes as shown in the form, the nature] of God [YHWH, the most High God].
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Here Paul described a divestment (“emptied Himself”…), an investment (“taking the”…) and a natural outworking (or net result) of both actions (“being made” in….). The Greek word for “form” here is again “morphe”, so Paul is speaking of the acquisition of bond servant (i.e. human) nature. “He took the characteristic attributes (morfhn as in verse Philippians 2:6) of a slave. His humanity was as real as his deity” (source). After the divestment and investment the subject (Christ Jesus) was “found in the likeness of man”. So it’s quite obvious to me that this “likeness” was not always in effect but was rather a function of the aforementioned actions, i.e., there was a time in Yeshua’s existence when he was not “in the form of a bond servant” and “in the likeness of men”. Therefore, preexistence is pressumed by Paul.This is how the Amplified Bible renders this verse:
But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.
Moffatt translates this verse thusly:
“Though he was divine by nature, he did not set store upon equality with God, but emptied himself by taking the nature of a servant; born in human guise and appearing in human form.”
Verse 8 – Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross
The theme of humility (as it applied to Christ Jesus) reaches its full expression in this verse. After existing in the “morphe” of God but “emptying Himself” of the prerogative/attributes attendant with this divine, supernatural existence (did not seek to retain equality). He instead “took on” a bond servant nature and was “made in” man’s appearance, THEN He became obedient to the extent where he allowed Himself to suffer a torturous and cruel death on a cross.THAT’S humility.
I can't see how the the information given about Jesus in Phil 2:6-7 could be true of his natural existence. The language, to me, argues strongly the other way. What are your thoughts?
Hi Is 1.18
Existed
Number 5225
Transliteration:
huparcho {hoop-ar'-kho}
Word Origin:
from 5259 and 756
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
be 42, have 2, live 1, after 1, not tr 2Total: 48
Definition:
to begin below, to make a beginning
to begin
to come forth, hence to be there, be ready, be at hand
to beSeems a little different to what Mr Barclay said
? bias?cont
FORM
Number 3444
Transliteration:
morphe {mor-fay'}
Word Origin:
perhaps from the base of 3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)
TDNT:
4:742,607
Part of Speech:
noun feminine
Usage in the KJV:
form 3Total: 3
Definition:
the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
external appearance For Synonyms see entry 5865EMPTIED
Number 2758
Transliteration:
kenoo {ken-o'-o}
Word Origin:
from 2756
TDNT:
3:661,426
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
make void 2, make of none effect 1, make of no reputation 1, be in vain 1Total: 5
Definition:
to empty, make empty
of Christ, he laid aside equality with or the form of God {NOTE BIAS}
to make void
deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect
to make void
cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, falseIs wrote:[/quote]
Isaiah, to be honest, I was hoping that we would start this discussion on a more down-to-earth level for me. The definitions of “morphe” and so on are hotly debated. Even Nick has give you a list of ways to interpret various words. Obviously they can be taken various ways. Philippians 2, and John 1 are two passages in the NT. Let's not make them the complete word on whether or not Jesus preexisted.If your willing, might we begin at the beginning? If Jesus preexisted his physical birth spoken of in the gospels, can you show me where the evidence is for such a belief?
The gospels are explicit – telling of a conception and a birth. Are there explicit teachings of Jesus' preexistence?
Quote Are there explicit teachings of Jesus' preexistence?
Yes. And one of them is Philippians 2:6-7.
Not3,
I thought we could start at Philippians 2:5-8 (since it's one of the plainest texts) and then move onto others. I gave a semantic range for “morphe”, if you like we could just use 'nature' which is not really contentious at all. Tell you what Not3, Greek words aside what do you think Phil 2:6-7 means in context? When in Jesus' natural life was He “in the form of God”? When did He take on the form of a bond servant? What did he empty Himself of? When was he “made in the likeness of man”?Also, here is what I believe to be a parallel verse to the Philippians passage:
2 Corinthians 8:9
9For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.When in Yeshua's earthly life, and in what sense, was he “rich”, when did he become “poor”?
If these passages do apply to the natural life of Yeshua then people like me need to know. We need to be corrected from scripture.
Blessings
2 Corinthians 8:9
9For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.Paul is exhorting the saints that in light of what Jesus has done, the saints can now become “rich.”
Now of course, Paul is not preaching prosperity messages
Therefore in what sense, can he be telling the saints in their earthly life, to become “rich”??Ask yourself that!
When you have answered that; you will then see in what sense Jesus was poor and that there was no pre-existence involved!
Selah!Hi AP,
RICH
Number 4145
Transliteration:
plousios {ploo'-see-os}
Word Origin:
from 4149
TDNT:
6:318,873
Part of Speech:
adjective
Usage in the KJV:
rich 28Total: 28
Definition:
wealthy, abounding in material resources
metaph. abounding, abundantly supplied
abounding (rich) in Christian virtues and eternal possessionsPOOR
Number 4433
Transliteration:
ptocheuo {pto-khyoo'-o}
Word Origin:
from 4434
TDNT:
6:885,969
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
become poor 1Total: 1
Definition:
to be a beggar, to beg, to be poorSo when did Christ have resources that he no longer has?
Quote (Adam Pastor @ June 16 2007,22:00) 2 Corinthians 8:9
9For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.Paul is exhorting the saints that in light of what Jesus has done, the saints can now become “rich.”
Now of course, Paul is not preaching prosperity messages
Therefore in what sense, can he be telling the saints in their earthly life, to become “rich”??Ask yourself that!
When you have answered that; you will then see in what sense Jesus was poor and that there was no pre-existence involved!
Selah!
In what sense was Yeshua “rich” in His Earthly life?Hi AP,
Christ in heaven, the vine, is still fully spiritually resourced and is the source for our grace.
So what do you mean?Hi AP,
Christ, the carpenter, went to live in Capernaum.
Matthew 4:13
And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:It seems he had a house there, that was soon to have a hole in it's roof.
Mark 2:1
And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house. 2And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.3And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
4And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
8And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.
His family seemed to have friends there as they went to a wedding in Capernaum.
John 2:12
After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.Yet later he made this statement.
Luke 9:58
And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.Matthew 8:20
And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.Could this be what he meant?
Hi Isaiah and others,
Today is Saturday and we have a few things going on, but I hope to come back here later tonight and post. And thank you Isaiah for asking a couple simple questions of me (instead of hard ones that require greek)
I do have some ideas to share and will gladly give you my understanding later tonight. As I shared with you earlier, it is my desire to come to the truth, and to understand more completely why my view is different from Trinitarianism. We may not agree, and that is OK, but at least I might have a better grasp on why you believe what you believe. Sometimes when the environment is a bit hostile (like it can get here sometimes), it's hard to learn exactly what someone believes because we shift into defense mode. So I'm looking forward to this very much.Back tonight……
It's 1 p.m. here in WA State and I will be checking back around 7 p.m. – if anyone happens to be around and is interested in a chat.
Happy Father's Day to all you Father's out there!
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 16 2007,18:33) Quote Are there explicit teachings of Jesus' preexistence?
Yes. And one of them is Philippians 2:6-7.Not3,
I thought we could start at Philippians 2:5-8 (since it's one of the plainest texts) and then move onto others. I gave a semantic range for “morphe”, if you like we could just use 'nature' which is not really contentious at all. Tell you what Not3, Greek words aside what do you think Phil 2:6-7 means in context? When in Jesus' natural life was He “in the form of God”? When did He take on the form of a bond servant? What did he empty Himself of? When was he “made in the likeness of man”?Also, here is what I believe to be a parallel verse to the Philippians passage:
2 Corinthians 8:9
9For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.When in Yeshua's earthly life, and in what sense, was he “rich”, when did he become “poor”?
If these passages do apply to the natural life of Yeshua then people like me need to know. We need to be corrected from scripture.
Blessings
Hello Not3,
I'm still waiting for you to answer these questions. What is your understanding?Blessings
Question: Did Jesus preexist His birth?
Answer: Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.Ummmmmmmm? Was the Word of God a form of God? And before flesh was equal with God being His Word?
Quote (Cult Buster @ June 22 2007,00:53) Question: Did Jesus preexist His birth? Answer: Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
If you read two more Verses down .Mic 5:4Yahweh is Jesus God.Now you have a problem you took a verse out of content.How do you explain Mic 5:4?
It isnt the Son who is God it is the Father WORKING through his Son.It dont make the Son God.There is no such thing as a MANGOD unless you believe in Hercules.The plain fact is that there is not a single verse in the entire New Testament that makes the claim that Jesus is God. If such verses did indeed exist, then Christianity wouldnt be splintered into so many hundreds, if not thousands, of sects, and the councils of Nicea would not have taken place to determine Jesus divinity….
Hi Cb
Show some verses that you think that the Messiah Preexits?
Where were you before you were Born? Did you preexits also?
CB
But you need to get this verse out of the way first..This tells me God alone created eveything and there was no Messiah to be found..
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Hi Isaiah,
Thanks for reminding me. You know, sometimes when a thread slips away from the “New Posts,” I forget to check back. I will look at it more in depth this weekend. I've been praying about the whole preexistence thing. I know t8 and Nick's view pretty well because Nick has been gracious enough to go over it with me many times. I think I know the Trinitarian view pretty well because I was a Trinitarian until a few years ago. The JW's have their view and most other views involve a incarnation of sorts. So, I've been praying about whether or not Jesus is an incarnation. And if so, what does that mean. I'm having a hard time with that, I'll be honest. But I'm praying and asking God's spirit to teach me……..and to help me be teachable!
Hi Mandy,
No problems. I didn't want the thread to fade out of sight, the way they sometimes do. I'm looking forward to engaging you on the issues.Blessings
PS; the “incarnation” means that the Logos (who was in the form of God) emptied Himself, took on the form of a bond servant, and was found in the likeness of man.
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