- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
Sheesh, David!
I'm kidding ya.
Seriously, I will answer your post after I tuck my kids into bed, but before I do (and hopefully before you log off), I wanted to ask you a question. If you are for Jesus being a complete human being, how does that align with the idea that Jesus is Michael the angel? Did it go something like this: Angel – human – angel again? Thanks.
Quote I have yet to read from the letter's of Paul stories surrounding Jesus' life before he joined us. I believe Paul wrote Colossians.
: “He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth.”–Col 1:15,16 (Revised Standard Version)
This does not mean he is the prime or most excellent of creation, for if that were so, why is the Father not also said to be the firstborn of all creation?
According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons.
Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies—the firstborn is part of the group.
“The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel.
“the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family.
“the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals.
This finds support in that Jesus is also called: “the beginning [Greek, ar·khe′] of God’s creation.”’ (KJ, Dy, CC, RS, NW, etc read similarly.)
Micah 5:2 very very very clearly says that his origins are from the days of time indefinite, from early times.
Quote Seriously, I will answer your post after I tuck my kids into bed, but before I do (and hopefully before you log off), I wanted to ask you a question. If you are for Jesus being a complete human being, how does that align with the idea that Jesus is Michael the angel? Did it go something like this: Angel – human – angel again? Thanks. It seems whenever someone can't or doesn't want to answer a question, they go to the “what to ask JW's” handbook, and change the subject.
Are you saying that Jehovah cannot transform the life of a human into a spirit (angelic) form?
What exactly are you implying is impossible for God?Quote Could he have done that if he was, say, a pre-existent spirit son who was re-incarnated into flesh? My answer is no! Why? Because he would not be fully human then. He is an incarnation of a previous life. This would not be a human person. This would be a “person” who previously existed who put on flesh! Hi Mandy. I have a couple questions:
If someone dies and is later resurrected back to life on earth (putting on flesh, as you say) are they human?
Secondly, where does the Bible give you your definition of what is human?
I mean, nowhere does it say: If you pre-existed as a spirit Jehovah cannot put your life into the womb of a woman to experience a human birth as a human.
It says nothing like that. So is this your idea?Quote Seriously, I will answer your post after I tuck my kids into bed, but before I do (and hopefully before you log off) ….I didn't log off and am still waiting, but I see you logged off. I guess I'll talk to you later.
bye for now.
Quote (david @ Oct. 11 2007,16:21) Quote Seriously, I will answer your post after I tuck my kids into bed, but before I do (and hopefully before you log off) ….I didn't log off and am still waiting, but I see you logged off. I guess I'll talk to you later.
bye for now.
Yes, as I said, I needed to go tuck my kids into bed. Well, it turned into helping with un-finished homework and then chatting with the husband until late. It is now nearly 12:30 a.m. and I will try to give you some sort of answer to your questions of me.First though, please get rid of the JW complex that you seem to have. I ask sincere questions, David. I don't try to hide from questions asked of me, however, I may not have the answer. If I don't have the answer to something I will certainly say that I don't know. And I definitely don't have a “What to ask a JW” handbook nearby! So, let's be a little more relaxed with one another. I'm not out to slam your belief's. You should know by now that I respect the JW's quite a lot. They were the ones who told me that the Trinity wasn't true. They were the ones who put me on this Trek for truth that I am on. So, with that said, I'll move on to your other posts.
Quote (david @ Oct. 11 2007,16:18) Quote Could he have done that if he was, say, a pre-existent spirit son who was re-incarnated into flesh? My answer is no! Why? Because he would not be fully human then. He is an incarnation of a previous life. This would not be a human person. This would be a “person” who previously existed who put on flesh! Hi Mandy. I have a couple questions:
If someone dies and is later resurrected back to life on earth (putting on flesh, as you say) are they human?
Secondly, where does the Bible give you your definition of what is human?
I mean, nowhere does it say: If you pre-existed as a spirit Jehovah cannot put your life into the womb of a woman to experience a human birth as a human.
It says nothing like that. So is this your idea?
Your first question isn't really based on reality, is it? I mean, a human cannot be resurrected back to life and then placed back in circulation. In the Bible we are told of such examples, but the dead were only dead for a short period of time and the Spirit breathed life back into them *through* a child of God (Moses, Paul, Peter, Jesus). So, you'll have to be a little clearer as to the point you are trying to make here? I may not be following you.To my knowledge, the Bible doesn't give a definition of “human” per se. However, when Adam was created we know that he had flesh and bone. We know that flesh is what makes up our temporary tent that we live in.
Your last paragraph is a bit confusing to me. I think you are trying to say that God can do anything he wants to do. Of course this is true. However, God is not the author of confusion. God likes order. He has placed an “order” of humanity, if you will. We are shown that there is a pattern to our procreation (love, sex, conception, birth). This is accepted as the “norm” and the “order” of things. God followed his own pattern.
He loved us, so he gave us his Son (1 John)
He found a willing virgin and there was a conception (Gospels)
Mary conceived through God's holy spirit (Gospels)
Mary gave birth to the promised Messiah (Gospels)Now I ask you, where in Scripture does it speak of anything *other* than God's natural order of things? Can you show me where God would break his natural order of things (what is conceived and given birth is a new individual) and put a preexistent spirit into the womb of a women?
Quote (david @ Oct. 11 2007,16:03) Quote Seriously, I will answer your post after I tuck my kids into bed, but before I do (and hopefully before you log off), I wanted to ask you a question. If you are for Jesus being a complete human being, how does that align with the idea that Jesus is Michael the angel? Did it go something like this: Angel – human – angel again? Thanks. It seems whenever someone can't or doesn't want to answer a question, they go to the “what to ask JW's” handbook, and change the subject.
Are you saying that Jehovah cannot transform the life of a human into a spirit (angelic) form?
What exactly are you implying is impossible for God?
Of course I believe that God can do anything he wills. But as I said before, God is a God of order. God does not tell us that Jesus was *conceived* and then change the meaning of conception.I have studied this idea that Jesus was the preexistent Michael; then was transported into Mary to grow in her womb un-naturally (in othe words, what was in Mary did not fuse with her DNA as in a “normal” conception); then lived a human life under the name Jesus; then was transformed again into Micheal.
David, there is little scriptural evidence that this is true. You really have to cut-and-paste to make this doctrine come to life. Trust me, I have tried. I wanted to believe it! I wanted to become a JW. I think their body of believer's are wonderful people. But I couldnt' get past the fact that when this topic came up — there was little scripture to support it.
So, no, I don't believe that God would give his Son to have a divine human life, and then when he is resurrected change him into something *other* than what he was before. After Jesus was resurrected, he visited the disciples. They recognized him – he was their Lord and Master. He wasn't Michael the Angel. It's a stretch, my brother.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 11 2007,11:36) Nope, not even remotely the same. We are physically born of two human parents, Yeshua was not. We are reborn, he was born without the need to be reborn.
If Yeshua is greater than us because he was Fathered by God and born like us through a woman, then it could be said that Adam was greater than Yeshua for he was Fathered and mothered by God, so to speak. He had no human mother, i.e., he gets an extra point.So why is Yeshua greater than Adam (when Adam was without sin that is)? I know that one was a living being”; and the latter a life-giving spirit.
But from the perspective of Christ being greater because he wasn't fathered by a human verses a being who wasn't fathered or mothered by a human, why is Yeshua a greater being?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 10 2007,17:36) Worse, for you are saying that Yeshua is not “The God”, but like all the other gods, only of course Yeshua is lessor than the devil for satan is called “Ho theos” of this world!
No WJ.I am not sure if you are intellectually challenged, hard hearted, or both, but I will say it again slowly for you.
T h e m o s t H i g h t h e o s i s t h e F a t h e r.
S o n s a r e a l s o r e f e r r e d t o a s t h e o s a n d e l o h i m.
B u t n o t i n n a m e or t i t l e l i k e t h e F a t h e r.Likewise devil is used of demons and even Judas, but in name or title it is Satan who is THE Devil.
Hence there is one Satan/Devil but many devils.
There is one Theos, but many are referred to as theos.One meaning is qualitative and the other is a title.
The Father is THE theos. We can be theos. We can even partake in divine nature. These are written. Your argument is with scripture and those who wrote it and the one who inspired it.
If you cannot grasp this, I think that you should remain quiet because poking fun at things that you do not understand can lead you into trouble and only defines you as arrogant.
2 Peter 2:11
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 11 2007,10:42) The whole Jeremiah argument about God knew him before he was born does not compare to Christ. Do you know why? Jesus doesn't just claim that the Father knew him, he claimed to have known the Father. When? Before the world was.
That Mr Steve is a very good point and worthy of consideration.Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 11 2007,10:42) So according to your logic, we can make the same claims as Yeshua. Haven't we been born from above? Can you name one apostle that agrees with you? With all respect Kejonn, this is an argument you cannot win. What it comes down to is believing the scriptures.
That is correct Mr Steve.If Christ is like us with the respect that he didn't preexist, then many of the verses that talk of his preexistence which are explained away, could then be used of any man who is born in like manner to Yeshua.
However, I wouldn't dare claim to have been before Abraham and I most certainly would never say that I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;
Yet if these verses are explained away as being the memory of Christ in the future or inheriting a divine mission from above, then surely those who propose that Yeshua began life in the womb of Mary, should be able to make the same claims as Yeshua, if they also believe that they have a mission given to them from God, or if they believe that God knew them before they were created, like Jeremiah.
So how come those of you who teach that Yeshua began his existence as an unborn man cannot also say “before Abraham, I am”? Or can you or do you say that?
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 11 2007,04:24) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 11 2007,11:36) Nope, not even remotely the same. We are physically born of two human parents, Yeshua was not. We are reborn, he was born without the need to be reborn.
If Yeshua is greater than us because he was Fathered by God and born like us through a woman, then it could be said that Adam was greater than Yeshua for he was Fathered and mothered by God, so to speak. He had no human mother, i.e., he gets an extra point.
Another fallacious argument. Adam was created, not born like Yeshua. There had to be a first. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? So which came first, the father (Adam was his great granddad many times over – Luke 3:38!!) or the Son? And what does it say about AdamLuk 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
But again, the uniqueness of Yeshua was he was born of human conception, not created from the earth and given life. He was the only child to have ever been conceived in the womb of the Holy Spirit.
Besides, this has nothing to do with who is greater. That seems to be your point, but this has to do with pre-existence. Steve brought up that all believers can make the same claim since we are born from above but ours was not a conception in the womb of the Holy Spirit. As I've shown Steve
Luk 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
Where do you see anywhere in the Bible anything remotely like “and he shall be called the Son of God because he was brought forth from the Father”? Luke 1:35 tells us why he is the Son of God.
Quote So why is Yeshua greater than Adam (when Adam was without sin that is)? I know that one was a living being”; and the latter a life-giving spirit.
For one thing, he overcame temptation and sin where Adam could not! He was everything Adam could have been. I hope you know that. And I've already pointed out his conception.Quote But from the perspective of Christ being greater because he wasn't fathered by a human verses a being who wasn't fathered or mothered by a human, why is Yeshua a greater being?
See above. (1) Yeshua was born of the Holy Spirit and woman, making him “monogenes”. (2) He completely and utterly overcame sin and then died while still perfect for those who were not perfect. Can you name another who these things can be said of?Quote (t8 @ Oct. 11 2007,04:34) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 11 2007,10:42) The whole Jeremiah argument about God knew him before he was born does not compare to Christ. Do you know why? Jesus doesn't just claim that the Father knew him, he claimed to have known the Father. When? Before the world was.
That Mr Steve is a very good point and worthy of consideration.
I've asked Steve to supply verses so we can discuss them one by one.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 11 2007,04:46) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 11 2007,10:42) So according to your logic, we can make the same claims as Yeshua. Haven't we been born from above? Can you name one apostle that agrees with you? With all respect Kejonn, this is an argument you cannot win. What it comes down to is believing the scriptures.
That is correct Mr Steve.If Christ is like us with the respect that he didn't preexist, then many of the verses that talk of his preexistence which are explained away, could then be used of any man who is born in like manner to Yeshua.
Hello? t8 and Mr Steve….virgin birth anyone? Please show me ins scripture anyone “born in like manner”. I don't recall anyone else being the son of the conception of a woman and the Holy Spirit. So no one else is the “monogenes” Son of God, are they? Why are you two guys overlooking this very basic fact?Quote However, I wouldn't dare claim to have been before Abraham and I most certainly would never say that I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;
I hope not. You, after all, are not the Messiah. There is only one Messiah after all. And there is only one whose conception is from above. Furthermore, many of the prophets also said they were sent.Quote Yet if these verses are explained away as being the memory of Christ in the future or inheriting a divine mission from above, then surely those who propose that Yeshua began life in the womb of Mary, should be able to make the same claims as Yeshua, if they also believe that they have a mission given to them from God, or if they believe that God knew them before they were created, like Jeremiah.
Which one of us was prophesied specifically in the Bible? Who else can make this statement?Joh 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Quote So how come those of you who teach that Yeshua began his existence as an unborn man cannot also say “before Abraham, I am”? Or can you or do you say that?
None of us can lay claim to this verseGen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 11 2007,21:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 10 2007,17:36) Worse, for you are saying that Yeshua is not “The God”, but like all the other gods, only of course Yeshua is lessor than the devil for satan is called “Ho theos” of this world!
No WJ.I am not sure if you are intellectually challenged, hard hearted, or both, but I will say it again slowly for you.
T h e m o s t H i g h t h e o s i s t h e F a t h e r.
S o n s a r e a l s o r e f e r r e d t o a s t h e o s a n d e l o h i m.
B u t n o t i n n a m e or t i t l e l i k e t h e F a t h e r.Likewise devil is used of demons and even Judas, but in name or title it is Satan who is THE Devil.
Hence there is one Satan/Devil but many devils.
There is one Theos, but many are referred to as theos.One meaning is qualitative and the other is a title.
The Father is THE theos. We can be theos. We can even partake in divine nature. These are written. Your argument is with scripture and those who wrote it and the one who inspired it.
If you cannot grasp this, I think that you should remain quiet because poking fun at things that you do not understand can lead you into trouble and only defines you as arrogant.
2 Peter 2:11
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
t8You know shouting and holoring does not change the truth.
You see the truth is nagging at your conscience like a badger that wont let go.
Who is it that is intellectually challenged and hard hearted?
In light of the truth who is it?
You put Yeshua in the same class of being as the devil and as men.
You say this is qualitative. But you have no proof of that.
There is no example of the word “Theos” found in the NT scriptures asscribed to any other being in a “Qualitative” sence like the Father and Yeshua.
Do you see your delima t8. Or are you to proud to let the word change you?
You are right know arguing the pre-existance of a greater being than all. Yet you say he is “a god” and not “the God”.
You are to proud to believe the translators that translated John 1:1 as they did.
Now you want to argue that through this lessor being than God he made all things.
Yet the Hebrews were monotheist that believed this…
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,These scriptures bear out that God not only is our only Saviour, but also he says that he alone created the heavens and there is…
“None like him”, “By Myself”. “None Else”.
In light of the above scriptures. How do you reconcile this?
YHWH says he alone is “Creator”, “Saviour”, and “God”, None other, by myself.
How do you explain that this Yeshua you say is “a god” was there with the Father by his side in light of this.
Who is intellectually challenged and stubborn and hard hearted t8?
You should become a “Trinitarian” or a “Unitarian” t8 for the Henotheistic theology has a lot of holes in it.
Quote Nope, not even remotely the same. We are physically born of two human parents, Yeshua was not. We are reborn, he was born without the need to be reborn.
Not evenly remotely the same. Was not Christ conceived as the Son of Man by the Holy Spirit? Did Christ not teach that we must be born of the Spirit to be born again to enter the Kingdom of God? Christ in you is the incarnation of God, his Son, his Spirit.Quote Quote
Do you believe that God created all things by Jesus Christ? Read Eph. 3:9 Turn the lights on.The lights have been on for some time. I just had to get the junk out of my eyes . Uh, and Eph 3:9 says God created all things, says nothing about Yeshua creating anything. Are you looking for some other verse?
What it says is “…God created all things by Christ Jesus.”
Quote Quote
I use to hold the same belief that Christ did not pre-exist his birth in Mary but it was proximately caused by a lack of knowledge of the scriptures.And I can claim the opposite. I used to believe in the trinity (which holds pre-existence as a major tenet) until I started getting into the scriptures.
Incarnation is a Platonic ideal. Not a Hebrew belief in the slightest and therefore wholly unsupported throughout the entire OT.
Did the Hebrews believe in being born again? Did the Hebrews believe in being justified by faith in Jesus Christ? If you're seeking confirmation from the Hebrews with respect to their historical beliefs, they were in the dark. They had the law and many walked with God, but they never had the truth that was given to us in the New Testament that God kept hid in Christ from the foundation of the world.
Quote Quote
Consider what John the Baptist says three times- he is preferred before me because he was before me. What is ambiguous about this scripture? To hold that Christ did not pre-exist here you would have to hold that John was referring to the Father in Jesus. But John adds a fact just to let us know he is referring to the Son of God. He says the shoe lachet of whom. Now God is a spirit so he doesn't wear shoes, the earth is his footstool so they would have to be very large if he did. John is referring to the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.Actually, JTB's reference is correct. The Messiah predated the prophecy of JTB for quite some time. The Messianic prophecy goes back before Abraham, while JTB is not prophesied about until the book of Isaiah (Is 40:3). Also, since JTB denies being Elijah, he would certainly believe the Messiah was before him because he has been prophesied for thousands of years prior to JTB's ministry.
Did John the Baptist say that “he is preferred before me because he was prophesied about before me.” Do you see how you have to pervert the scripture to make it read what you believe.
In another place you say that Jesus was in glory somehow with the Father but did not exist as the Son of God. Complete perversion of the scriptures. Jesus said he was with the Father that makes Jesus his Son before the world was. If he was not the Son of God before the world was he did not exist. Every time he declared where he came from he was declaring he was the Son of God prior.
Yes, I do have a major hang up on this point because I'm not going to deny that Christ is the Son of God for any one. I am hung up on the Son of God.
Quote
Quote
But there is a greater denial here if you do not believe that John is referring to the Son of God. You're stating the Jesus was not the Son of God, but God himself because you believe that only God pre-existed, not Jesus. It's incredible what happens when you do not believe the scripture.You have this major hangup with this. I saw you accusing WJ of the very same thing, and it was a false accusation against him too. Show me where I said Yeshua was NOT the Son of God.
What I did do was provide scriptural evidence that he was the Son of God because of his birth by Mary and the Holy Spirit. He was not the Son of God before that. You repeatedly make that assertion but have not backed it up on even one occasion. Here again is you evidence, from the inspired Word of God.
Luk 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
Why was he to be called the Son of God Steve? Its right there ins Luke 1:35. No single record, not even a hint, that Yeshua was the Son of God before he was born of Mary.
I've never given you any scriptures that Christ was the Son of God prior. How about the following:
John the Baptist said there is one coming after me who is preferred before me, the “shoelachets” of whom I am not worthy to unloose. Unless you believe the Father wears shoes, this could only be referring to the Son of God.
When John says the shoelachets of whom I am not worthy to unloose he could only be referring to Jesus (as opposed to the Father in Jesus) because the Father did not appear in the flesh, but remained in heaven. The Father was in Christ by the Spirit, which was given to Christ without measure. The reference to the shoelachets makes it clear that John was referring to the person Christ Jesus, not his Father and not the Word, which is also God. Moreover, to bolster this truth it is written in all four gospels. This was the testimony of John the Baptist of Christ pre-existence.
Jesus said I know from whence I came and I am returning to where I was before. If Christ wasn't in heaven before coming to earth, then he lied, which is impossible. He also asked his disciples, what and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up to where he was before? John 6:62 Here, Jesus is stating he, the son of man, was before in heaven, thereby, establishing his pre-existence as the Son of God. He wasn't the Son of Man until his incarnation.
In John 8:58, Jesus said he existed before Abraham. The entire chapter centers on the truth that Jesus is the Son of God. Every time Christ refers to his Father and knowing him, he is proclaiming the inherent truth that he is the Son of God. By contrast, because they reject him, they know not God, but are children of the devil. His statement that he existed before Abraham is unambiguous. Jesus isn't stating the Father was before Abraham. That is never the issue. The entire issue is who Jesus is and where he's from. Jesus never declares the Holy Spirit conceived him about 33 years ago. Christ never even refers to his earthly birth because he was from above, not from this world. He stated he was sent from the Father in heaven and would return there.
In John 8:41 the Jews state that they have one Father, even God. They believed that they were sons of God, too. The irony was that they claimed that Christ should be crucified for making the same claim t
hey made themselves.The entire essence of being sent from God requires that Christ be with the Father to be sent by him. Just as the disciples had to be with Jesus before being sent into the world by him.
When Christ said he came down from heaven he stated he was in heaven prior as the Son of God. Otherwise, whom is “he” referring to. The Word is not a person, it is the seed of God, the life of God, which was, is and is to come. The word is unchangeable. The word remains with God and is God.
All of us are born of the word. We are born from above. Christ was sent from above, that's the difference. Hence, if Christ did not pre-exist as the Son of God, then he is no different than any of us with respect to being born from above.
Jesus said the bread of God is he (Jesus the Son of God) which cometh down from heaven and giveth life unto the world. John 6:33
Jesus also said in John 6:38 that he came down from heaven not to do his own will, but the will of him who sent him. This scripture is huge. It contains the truths that Christ was in heaven prior to coming to earth, that he had a will in heaven, thereby establishing himself as the Son of God in Heaven, unless you believe that the Son of God changed from being someone or thing other than the Son of God. Christ does not change. Hebrews 13:8 Here, we see that Jesus had a will in heaven. A word does not have a will. The word is life. Those who are born and created by God have wills.
[/QUOTE]Show me the word “incarnated”, “incarnation”, or anything remotely similar in the Bible. You'll find it right next to the word “trinity”. You will find incarnation in other pagan philosophies, particularly Plato. Did you know that Justin Martyr was the first to use the word “pre-existence” and that he was a very strong student of platonic philosophy before accepting Christ?
How about being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever. 1 Peter 1:23
God's word incarnated in you by the Holy Spirit. Or, if Christ be in you, he shall also quicken your mortal body by the spirit that dwelleth in you.Christ incarnated in us by the Holy Spirit, just as God incarnated the Son of God in Mary by the Holy Spirit.
Steven
WJ;
Check out Isaiah 44:24 and Ephesians 3:9 together. It just may be that God kept hid the revelation of his Son until the perfect time. If you look at both perhaps God works through his Son. Jesus did say he was dependent on the Father for all things so it seems to fit. If God kept hid the mystery of his Son from the beginning then the Son would be so apparent in the Old Testament scriptures, otherwise he would have not been hid. However, they that seek the Lord understand all things. So like Abraham he saw ahead to the day of Christ and rejoiced.
Steven
Dear Group, I admit it; I've squeezed in too much info too fast with my previous posts. Please forgive this imposition…I'm new to this whole blogging thing. Guess I got a little too excited finding this website blog (there's not too many Christians out there who hold monotheistic beliefs as you do.) Anyway, after re-reading and considering the previous posts I made, I realize that it doesn't communicate the ideas I had intended very well. I'll endeavor to write out my thoughts before posting them and see if my 11 Y/0 daughter undertands them before throwing another blog in your face. CHEERS
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 11 2007,13:29)
Not evenly remotely the same. Was not Christ conceived as the Son of Man by the Holy Spirit? Did Christ not teach that we must be born of the Spirit to be born again to enter the Kingdom of God? Christ in you is the incarnation of God, his Son, his Spirit.
Too much Greek here. That is, too much Greek philosophy, courtesy of Plato and Socrates. If you can not understand the difference between an actual biological conception and our spiritual rebirth, I cannot help you.Quote What it says is “…God created all things by Christ Jesus.”
Ah, the KJV. Investigate that verse. The phrase “by Jesus Christ” is not supported by the majority of manuscripts nor in any quotes by the early fathers. Thus, not likely in the original text.Quote Did the Hebrews believe in being born again? Did the Hebrews believe in being justified by faith in Jesus Christ? If you're seeking confirmation from the Hebrews with respect to their historical beliefs, they were in the dark. They had the law and many walked with God, but they never had the truth that was given to us in the New Testament that God kept hid in Christ from the foundation of the world.
Before you get much further in your insults of the chosen people of God, you might want to actually study the inspired scriptures of the Old Testament. No hint of incarnation or pre-existence anywhere. Unless God wanted to hide things from them?Quote Did John the Baptist say that “he is preferred before me because he was prophesied about before me.” Do you see how you have to pervert the scripture to make it read what you believe.
The word for “before” is “protos” which can also mean “first in rank”.Mat 19:30 But many that are first [“protos”] shall be last; and the last shall be first [“protos”].
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief [“protos”] among you, let him be your servant.
Mat 22:38 This is the first [“protos”] and great commandment.
Quote In another place you say that Jesus was in glory somehow with the Father but did not exist as the Son of God. Complete perversion of the scriptures. Jesus said he was with the Father that makes Jesus his Son before the world was. If he was not the Son of God before the world was he did not exist. Every time he declared where he came from he was declaring he was the Son of God prior.
No scriptural support and total opposition to Luke 1:35. You are reading your view into scripture instead of getting it from scripture. That is called “eisegesis”.Quote
I've never given you any scriptures that Christ was the Son of God prior. How about the following:John the Baptist said there is one coming after me who is preferred before me, the “shoelachets” of whom I am not worthy to unloose. Unless you believe the Father wears shoes, this could only be referring to the Son of God.
When John says the shoelachets of whom I am not worthy to unloose he could only be referring to Jesus (as opposed to the Father in Jesus) because the Father did not appear in the flesh, but remained in heaven. The Father was in Christ by the Spirit, which was given to Christ without measure. The reference to the shoelachets makes it clear that John was referring to the person Christ Jesus, not his Father and not the Word, which is also God. Moreover, to bolster this truth it is written in all four gospels. This was the testimony of John the Baptist of Christ pre-existence.
Huh? You mean Yeshua, the human who was about to be baptized, didn't have feet? When did JTB say this? While Yeshua was alive on earth! Seriously…Quote Jesus said I know from whence I came and I am returning to where I was before. If Christ wasn't in heaven before coming to earth, then he lied, which is impossible.
Verse please.Quote He also asked his disciples, what and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up to where he was before? John 6:62 Here, Jesus is stating he, the son of man, was before in heaven, thereby, establishing his pre-existence as the Son of God. He wasn't the Son of Man until his incarnation. Luke 1:35 disagrees with you. You've skipped it again. Why?
And John 6:62 is not about his ascension to heaven, it is about his resurrection. No verse should be taken in isolation. Read the surrounding passages and you will see the context. He will be “raised up” to where he was before; that is, he will be raised up to life.
Quote In John 8:58, Jesus said he existed before Abraham. The entire chapter centers on the truth that Jesus is the Son of God. Every time Christ refers to his Father and knowing him, he is proclaiming the inherent truth that he is the Son of God. By contrast, because they reject him, they know not God, but are children of the devil. His statement that he existed before Abraham is unambiguous. Jesus isn't stating the Father was before Abraham. That is never the issue. The entire issue is who Jesus is and where he's from. Jesus never declares the Holy Spirit conceived him about 33 years ago. Christ never even refers to his earthly birth because he was from above, not from this world. He stated he was sent from the Father in heaven and would return there.
Do you deny the virgin birth then? Is that why you won't address Luke 1:35?Do you have some gnostic leanings? The early gnostics did not believe in the virgin birth either. They believed that the Christ descended on Yeshua at the baptism. Is that what you believe, that the “Son of God” inhabited the earthly flesh tent at the baptism?
Quote In John 8:41 the Jews state that they have one Father, even God. They believed that they were sons of God, too. The irony was that they claimed that Christ should be crucified for making the same claim they made themselves. The entire essence of being sent from God requires that Christ be with the Father to be sent by him.
Just as the disciples had to be with Jesus before being sent into the world by him.
Was JTB with the Father? What of all the OT prophets sent by God? Were they with God before they came to earht as well?Quote When Christ said he came down from heaven he stated he was in heaven prior as the Son of God.
Please, please, please give me scriptural evidence of this. I have given you evidence of why he is called the Son of God but you keep passing over it. I can only assume that you do not believe in the virgin birth then.Quote Otherwise, whom is “he” referring to. The Word is not a person, it is the seed of God, the life of God, which was, is and is to come. The word is unchangeable. The word remains with God and is God. All of us are born of the word. We are born from above. Christ was sent from above, that's the difference. Hence, if Christ did not pre-exist as the Son of God, then he is no different than any of us with respect to being born from above.
You're right, he's not supposed to be different than us.Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Quote Jesus said the bread of God is he (Jesus the Son of God) which cometh down from heaven and giveth life unto the world. John 6:33
How does that compare withJas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
When was the last time you saw the heavens opened up so you could receive a good gift from the Father? I guess whe don't have anything good from the Father then.
Quote Jesus also said in John 6:38 that he came down from heaven not to do his own will, but the will of him who sent him. This scripture is huge. It contains the truths that Christ was in heaven prior to coming to earth, that he had a will in heaven, thereby establishing himself as the Son of God in Heaven, unless you believe that the Son of God changed from being someone or thing other than the Son of God. Christ does not change. Hebrews 13:8 Here, we see that Jesus had a will in heaven. A word does not have a will. The word is life. Those who are born and created by God have wills.
See above about “coming down from heaven”. And what does Hebrews 13:8 say?Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Can you show me Jesus anywhere in scripture prior to his birth? Here's what you DO have:
Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
Luk 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
So, if you take the Hebrews 13:8 verse literally, was Jesus born a full-grown man?!?
Quote How about being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever. 1 Peter 1:23
God's word incarnated in you by the Holy Spirit. Or, if Christ be in you, he shall also quicken your mortal body by the spirit that dwelleth in you.
What has that to do with your extra-biblical word “incarnated”? Are you trying to say Yeshua was “born again”? Otherwise, you have a gross misapplication.Quote Christ incarnated in us by the Holy Spirit, just as God incarnated the Son of God in Mary by the Holy Spirit.
So we're all a bunch of incarnated Jesuses? You're getting a little off into left field, pardner…
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
