Preexistence

[kejonn]

Here ya go t8,

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2007,17:45)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 04 2007,23:40) Here's the question you have to ask: if Yeshua pre-existed, what was he? You basically have two choices: God, or an angel. It is simple as that. Do we see any other being in heaven? Hi kejonn. It seems plausible at least that when men saw the invisible God as referenced in the OT, they saw the visible image of the invisible God, who is Yeshua because no man can or has seen God

Anything is possible, but to go ahead and believe this is apologetics at its best (or worst). There were many times where people saw an angel or a manifestation of God.

Let me ask you: what was the purpose of the whole virgin birth and first 30 years of Yeshua’s life if he could have just come when the ministry started and then die?

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It is also possible that Yeshua was an angel or the Angel, (in the sense of being a messenger). Also, angels are called sons, and we are sons and it is said we will become like the angels and we will also become as Yeshua is.

The angel? Who knows, but it is not likely that he would have been Michael. And he is not Gabriel either (see Luke 1). Why would he not have been Michael?

Dan 10:5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz.
Dan 10:6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult.

Dan 10:12 Then he said to me, “Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words.
Dan 10:13 “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

Compare these verses with

Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 1:14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
Rev 1:15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.

There are some things to note here: (1) the similarities between Yeshua in Revelation 1 and the being that appeared to is amazingly similar. (2) The being that appeared to Daniel was NOT Michael because he needed Michael’s help to overcome the prince of Persia. (3) If this was Yeshua in his pre-man form, he certainly wasn’t God because he would not have needed the aid of an archangel to overcome the prince of Persia.

The being that appeared to Daniel is the best “proof” we have of a pre-existent Yeshua. But we can see that his power was indeed limited because he struggled with the prince of Persia for 21 days before Michael helped him overcome. So he was either weaker than Michael or at least equal to him.

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Mal 3:1 Behold* I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts. The first angel or messenger mentioned in the verse alludes to John the Baptist, who preceded Jesus Christ and prepared the way for Him, but the angel of the testament / covenant who comes to His temple appears to be Yeshua. So it could be argued that he was a son/angel/messenger, if so, then it would be assumed that he was the son/messenger.

What version are you using? Every translation I have says “messenger” for Mal 3:1. No matter, the word used for “messenger” here is more often translated as “angel” almost every other time.

So are you supposing that JTB was an angel as well?

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We also have references in the Old Testament regarding a special angel who's name is possibly “wonderful”. Judges 13:17-18 17 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” 18 But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?” I.e. incomprehensible Compares nicely with Isaiah 9:6 6 For a (A)child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. If he is the Angel, then he was/is a spirit. Hebrews 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? This is just one line of thought among a few.

One last note on this: the angels were often called princes. And his title as “King of kings” refers to his rulership over humanity, not his spiritual rank. Just some thoughts…

[kenrch]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,05:44)

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 06 2007,12:33) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,05:29) Quote (chipwhite @ Oct. 06 2007,12:23) kenrch thank you for the post. If adam was created in the image of elohim. Could not have Christ been there and scooped up the clay fashioned with his hands then breathed the (pnuema) into the man. In the old testament there are many examples of the Father doing physical things yet we know that the Father is not physical He is spiritual for he is spirit. Why is it so hard when the scripture says that all things are sustained by His powerful word. (word being a spoken uttered thing.) “Let there be light” and there was He speaks things as if they are then they come to pass. What was adams originally created imperishable form before sin changed that form? Chip, So you are saying the last Adam created the first Adam? Weren't ALL things created through Him and For Him? Only if you believe that there is only one creation  : .

I know what you are sying but Still:

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, …that are in heaven,… and that are in earth,… visible and invisible,…. whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Then there is always:

Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,  the beginning of the creation of God;

I'm not debating I'm just interested, OK?

Who was the beginning of the creation of God?

Is that the beginning of ALL creation?  Or the new creation?

All I'm sure about is that Jesus was the ONLY begotten Son of God who gave Himself for me.  Where He was before I'm not sure. There is scripture for and against the preexistance.

[chipwhite]

Wow you took a hammer and nailed that one kejonn it is apologetics. (best or worst The Father will decide.)

But in answer to your question “yes” I do believe that “all” things were created “by Him” and “for Him.”

Unless the Spirit leads me down another path ( through brothers and sisters sharing their truths with me.)

It is the only thing that reconciles so much of the scriptures obscure areas for “me” so my answer is yes it is possible in my mind.

I also believe Gene has a handle on the “what is the point of the first 30 years of his life.”

I believe that Gene is right in the fact that he had to be like us in every way (just as the parables taught spiritual things)so that he could show us in the flesh how to return and recieve a relationship with the Father.

Also, that he had to come down and live in our world of sin, that way he would have no advantage over us when he went to the cross to atone for our sins. (Gene is onto something with that thought.) This also helps with the understanding of philliapians 2

[chipwhite]

Sorry reread you question. I also believe that the Christ that would have done that was in no way shape or form the Christ that was born of a virgin and died for my sins. (that moment in time Christ was more like us) Again I go back to phillipians and other scriptures.

On this website or maybe another I picked up the book of adam. It is not a cannonical book but it does say in it that the angels before the fall used to approach adam with trembling and wonder. Then it says that adam and eve after they followed satan, they now tremble and wonder before the angels. ( I know it is not the cannon but the cannon does not say that this is not possible.)

[Proclaimer]

To kejonn.

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,03:00)

t8, Scripturally, we know that Yeshua is the image of the invisible God. Man is the image of God. So was Yeshua's pre-existence man? That does not quite fit scripture because the word used for “man” in Hebrew is “adam”. In fact, in Genesis 2:19, where you see “Adam” translated, it is still the Hebrew word “adam”! Thus, Adam was truly the definition of man. But what is Yeshua called? 1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. We know the first Adam, we see him in Genesis. The second Adam is Yeshua. Thus, scripturally, Yeshua could not have been “adam” before taking on the form of “adam”. My son can be the “spitting image” of me. But his genetics are mixed with his mother's as well. Yet, we are both human. If Yeshua was begotten by God before he took on humanity, his only “parent” was God. That would also make him God! YHWH and El Shaddai are the names for the God of Israel, God is not His name. When we say “God” we think of the Father, we think of YHWH, but it truly is not His name. When scripture says the Father is the only true God, it means that He is truly the only God for us as Christians. Before we came to Him, our god was the god of this world. As I've said, WJ is correct in that the Trinity is the most scripturally valid way to reconcile Yeshua's nature IF you believe in his eternally begotten existence. I may be wrong, but JWs believe in Yeshua's pre-existence as Michael, the arch-angel. Thus, they believe Yeshua is a created being.

Being the, or an image, of God doesn't necessarily mean that one is a man.

Rather I think it describes a being that reflects another.

The woman is the image of the man for example. She is the glory of man, and she is of man.

Christ is the image of God. He is the glory of God and of God.

There is a belief that Christ preexisted as the Word of God.

If we are looking for a type of being, well that may not be the best thing to do, because in this case he existed before angels and created things.

If I was to hazzard a guess, I would say he existed as a spirit with the Father if he preexisted. He then made appearances in human history as God's messenger from time to time.

As far as eternally begotten, it seems strange to me that there are only 2 choices. Athanasius and Arius.

1) God incarnate and an eternal generated son.
2) A man, albeit a perfect one.

This fits with Greek thinking nicely. The Greeks had the constraint of created or non-created. Christ had to fit in one of those categories. But is it possible that begotten fits neither?

But let's take a step back for a minute. Why does there have to be 2 choices for a start?

What about God and man and in between we have Yeshua in whatever form. He is the mediator and he has preeminence in all things. So he shares God's nature and he partook of our nature. Sounds like the perfect mediator to me.

So whether he was a spirit, Word, man, angel, messenger, it sort of matters not. What matters is that he was the first and is the first.

Yes JWs believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel although they admit that there is no concrete proof of this, they think that “great prince” is a title of Christ and we know that this angel has that title.

But angel is an interesting word. It also means messenger and it appears that both Yeshua and John the Baptist are both referred to as angels in the messenger sense. That of course doesn't make them cherubims or seraphs.

[Proclaimer]

Oh another thing kejonn.

We have to consider that Christ is a mystery, so as all mysteries go, it is not too obvious, but can perhaps become apparent when we dig deep.

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

But he is revealed for us. So I prefer to let scripture tell me about him, and even if I do not have all the answers such as “how old is he?”. “has he always had a visible body?”, “was the Word a person?”, we do have scriptures that refer to him as existing before Abraham, before creation, and as the first.

I agree that we can know more, but perhaps if we ask the wrong questions, we can be in danger of trying to hard to fill in the gaps.

I have an understanding that is from scripture, but is not perfect because I am not perfect. But I know that we could speculate beyond scripture which isn't bad in itself, but it should at least be acknowledged.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,05:29)

Chip, So you are saying the last Adam created the first Adam?

It would be scriptural to say that God created Adam through Christ.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,05:55)

Anything is possible, but to go ahead and believe this is apologetics at its best (or worst). There were many times where people saw an angel or a manifestation of God. Let me ask you: what was the purpose of the whole virgin birth and first 30 years of Yeshua’s life if he could have just come when the ministry started and then die?

Hi kejonn.

So that he could come in the flesh.

Jesus came in the flesh. The antichrist spirit denies this, (not pointing to you BTW).

Jesus came in the flesh to save those who are in the flesh. He became the second Adam for us as the first condemned us.

Remember that the flesh comes first then the spiritual body. So it is at least possible that Jesus had a spiritual body before he partook of the flesh, perhaps the same body that we will have.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,05:55)

The angel? Who knows, but it is not likely that he would have been Michael. And he is not Gabriel either (see Luke 1). Why would he not have been Michael?

Angel as in messenger. Not as in Cherub or Seraph.

Hebrews 13:2
Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.

Not the winged kind, but messengers.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,05:55)

Dan 10:5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. Dan 10:6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult. Dan 10:12 Then he said to me, “Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words. Dan 10:13 “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia. Compare these verses with Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. Rev 1:14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, Rev 1:15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. There are some things to note here: (1) the similarities between Yeshua in Revelation 1 and the being that appeared to is amazingly similar. (2) The being that appeared to Daniel was NOT Michael because he needed Michael’s help to overcome the prince of Persia. (3) If this was Yeshua in his pre-man form, he certainly wasn’t God because he would not have needed the aid of an archangel to overcome the prince of Persia.

If this is Yeshua, then it does seem strange that he struggles against this prince.

But perhaps if it is, then the only way I could understand it is to think of it like this:

Jesus starts a good work in us, so why doesn't he just transform us instantly? Because we are a WIP, and he never overrides our will. His burden is light. He moves where he is invited.

Compare the coming of Yeshua in the flesh the first time to the second time, what is the difference? A humble servant the first time, a reigning king who destroys his enemies the second.

The difference is that the second time he comes, all things have been judged and have been put under his feet. But before he died for humanity all things were not yet subject.

Perhaps it is not a lack of power but a lack of license? Or perhaps (if it was Yeshua), Yeshua didn't fight at all, but let the angles do it, after all it is Michael that bounds the Devil. Perhaps Yeshua let angels fight through the demonic barrier to create a way for him to come. Perhaps he didn't fight because he was going to do that as a humble servant at some time in the future.

Who knows. I am speculating of course.

Perhaps it was just another angel?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,05:55)

So are you supposing that JTB was an angel as well?

Yes JTB was a messenger.

Behold I will send my messenger/angel).

mal'ak
1. messenger
2. angel
3. the theophanic angel

Yes the word messenger is the same as angel. The point is that angel doesn't always refer to the winged kind, just as theos doesn't always refer to the Most High God.

Angels can be Cherub, Seraph, Man, Prophet, Christ.

[IM4Truth]

t8 In one of your Post you say that you are not perfect, but you believe, you think, i think, that Jesus preexisted before the world was. In what form should be known too, because scripture say:” Glorify me now with the Glory that we had before the world was.” What form did our Father in Heaven have. He has always been a Spirit Being, so Jesus was a spirit Being. He gave up that glory to become a Man and was crucified and died for us. Was first to be resurrected and sits at the right hand of our Heavenly Father in Heaven. In other words He was and still is second in place. But for us, we have to go through Him to come to the Father, why because God cannot look at Sin. Jesus died for all Sin, past, present and future, and therefore He is our Mediator to the Father. It is as easy as that to me.
t8 Why are you not sure of this, though?
Peace and Love Mrs.

[elaine1809]

IM4 you are right it is as simple as that!

[kenrch]

The Son of God. What of the son of man? Isn't that what Jesus was? The Son of man (flesh) filled with God? Or was He filled with the Son of God?

Is the Holy Spirit the Son of God? I know that the Spirit is God but would not HIS Son be Spirit too?

Just a thought.

[kejonn]

Hi all,

Everyone wants to say it is simple, he pre-existed. Yet some of you say you don't believe in the trinity. Therefore, it no longer IS simple. Because belief in pre-existence without belief in the trinity is almost an oxymoron UNLESS you want to believe Yeshua was an angel. There really is only two class of beings in heaven: God and angels.
From wikipedia:

Orthodox Judaism includes belief in the existence of angels, including Cherubim within the Jewish angelic hierarchy, as does Conservative Judaism, although some factions in the latter interpret certain liturgical references to Cherubim more figuratively.

Seraphim are part of the angelarchy of Orthodox Judaism, and Isaiah's vision is repeated several times in daily Jewish services, including at Kedushah prayer added as part of the repetition of the Amidah and in several other prayers as well.

In the Christian angelic hierarchy, seraphim represent the highest known rank of angels. There are only two angels in the canonized Greek and Hebrew Bible mentioned by name: Michael (who is described as the archangel) and Gabriel.

So cherubim and seraphim are both angels. Then we have other angels represented by “malawk” or “messenger”.

Some people want to deny the trinity but they stop short by just accepting Yeshua “was” before he came to earth without finding out what form. You may think it does not matter but it does because if Yeshua was not an angel, then you really have no defense against the trinity doctrine unless you accept regular polytheism.

[kejonn]

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 07 2007,08:22)

The Son of God. What of the son of man? Isn't that what Jesus was? The Son of man (flesh) filled with God? Or was He filled with the Son of God? Is the Holy Spirit the Son of God? I know that the Spirit is God but would not HIS Son be Spirit too? Just a thought.

Ken,

Yeshua called himself “son of man” while he walked the earth. He was that because he was human. But that doesn't say anything about what he was before he came to earth, if he existed before.

If Yeshua is God's son before coming to earth, he is either a god (begotten) or an angel (created).

[kejonn]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2007,23:41)

Being the, or an image, of God doesn't necessarily mean that one is a man. Rather I think it describes a being that reflects another. The woman is the image of the man for example. She is the glory of man, and she is of man.

And she is also human. They are the same species.

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Christ is the image of God. He is the glory of God and of God. There is a belief that Christ preexisted as the Word of God. If we are looking for a type of being, well that may not be the best thing to do, because in this case he existed before angels and created things. If I was to hazzard a guess, I would say he existed as a spirit with the Father if he preexisted. He then made appearances in human history as God's messenger from time to time. As far as eternally begotten, it seems strange to me that there are only 2 choices. Athanasius and Arius. 1) God incarnate and an eternal generated son. 2) A man, albeit a perfect one.

Did Arius believe he pre-existed though? If he pre-existed as a man, then the first “adam” (“man”) was Yeshua, not Adam.

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This fits with Greek thinking nicely. The Greeks had the constraint of created or non-created. Christ had to fit in one of those categories. But is it possible that begotten fits neither? But let's take a step back for a minute. Why does there have to be 2 choices for a start? What about God and man and in between we have Yeshua in whatever form. He is the mediator and he has preeminence in all things. So he shares God's nature and he partook of our nature. Sounds like the perfect mediator to me.

His ability to be mediator is due to his humanity. His relationship as the only Son of God by birth allows him to be preeminent just as any firstborn, thus allowing him to be second to God. This is all without taking into consideration an eternal existence.

What you are proposing is that Yeshua was something that the Hebrew children were never exposed to in 4000 years. That is possible but not very likely. Why would YHWH keep an eternal son who was not an angel or a god a secret from His chosen people for so long? And then place him in Mary as their Messiah?

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So whether he was a spirit, Word, man, angel, messenger, it sort of matters not. What matters is that he was the first and is the first.

I think it does matter. Without knowing, you really have little defense against the trinity. Trinitarians say he pre-existed as God. JWs and a few others say he existed as the angel Michael. I guess then there would be a third group, not needing any labels, who would say “he's existed eternally, but we don't know how”. And that would leave you constantly open to having little defense against the trinity IMHO.

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Yes JWs believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel although they admit that there is no concrete proof of this, they think that “great prince” is a title of Christ and we know that this angel has that title. But angel is an interesting word. It also means messenger and it appears that both Yeshua and John the Baptist are both referred to as angels in the messenger sense. That of course doesn't make them cherubims or seraphs.

So then, there is a 3rd class of beings in heaven called “messengers”? And JTB was one of them, along with Yeshua?

[kenrch]

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So then, there is a 3rd class of beings in heaven called “messengers”? And JTB was one of them, along with Yeshua?

Was JTB Elijah? Jesus said he was. JTB said no he wasn't.

It seems that JTB didn't “know” that he had the “spirit” of Elijah.

[942767]

Hi All:

The following scripture might help:

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Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;   3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:   3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Relative to Michael:

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Definition Michael = “who is like God” the first of the chief princes or archangels who is supposed to be the guardian angel of the Israelites

In the following scriptures, Michael seems to refer to the spirit (who is like God) who through his angels (messengers) fight against the dragon(the spirit of the devil) and his angels:

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Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. Re 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In these scriptures Michael appears to refer to a ruler who has this spirit (who is like God);

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Da 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Da 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the

God Bless

[elaine1809]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 08 2007,02:09)

Hi all, Everyone wants to say it is simple, he pre-existed. Yet some of you say you don't believe in the trinity. Therefore, it no longer IS simple. Because belief in pre-existence without belief in the trinity is almost an oxymoron UNLESS you want to believe Yeshua was an angel. There really is only two class of beings in heaven: God and angels. Some people want to deny the trinity but they stop short by just accepting Yeshua “was” before he came to earth without finding out what form. You may think it does not matter but it does because if Yeshua was not an angel, then you really have no defense against the trinity doctrine unless you accept regular polytheism.

so it is of HUMAN UNDERSTANDING that if he was not an angel but preexisted we[human understanding] HAVE to DEDUCT[please see definition] that there is a trinity. human wisdom sometimes can be scary… So you compare your human wisdom to jehova's? If you dont have a LOGICAL answer or explanation you deduct in such a drastic way? That is not wisdom and that is no DEDUCTION it is an assumption based on human logic which sometimes it comes out as the opposite of common sense..

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