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Mr. Steve,
We know all of that. He said he came from the Father. Yet that can be explained very simply: his conception was from above AND here on earth. That is, God's Spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived.
As far as being sent, I've already listed many verses that speak of Moses and various prophets being sent by God.
BTW, have you said what form you thought Yeshua was in prior to his humanity? Angel, “God”, or some other? What basics do you have for the belief?
Kejonn and others;
If you believe what Jesus said is ambiguous or can be explained otherwise, see what the apostles said and see if their interpretation is consistent with yours.
Let's look at a statement Jesus said and see if any of the apostles confirmed your interpretation. Jesus said, “I came down from heaven.”
You might argue that statement can be easily explained because the Holy Spirit came down from heaven and Christ was conceived. So did any apostles make that same interpretation or what did they say?
Paul said that Christ was the second Adam and was the Lord from heaven. Paul even writes to the Colossians that Christ created all things in heaven and in earth. If he created all things he had to have been there. Think about it, could a stronger claim be made for pre-existence?
It's also helpful to remember how were we born again. Did not the spirit of God descend upon them in the book of Acts in cloven tongues of fire? Are we not born of the incorruptible seed, the word of God?
Based upon these facts, do any of the apostles claim that they came down from heaven or are returning to where they were before the foundation of the world with the Father? Do any of the apostles pray in a manner, which indicates they, or any believer was with the Father before the world was? In short, Jesus made claims that none of us can make because he pre-existed with the Father. It's not leaping off the pages to the untrained eye, but do you notice he says he was with the Father. If he is calling him Father, that makes Jesus his Son, not the Word, not an angel, not a spirit. When was he his Father? Before the world was. That makes Christ the Son of God before the world was.
So if you conclude that Christ did not come down from heaven where he pre-existed, but only with respect to the Holy Spirit coming down from heaven, you are making a claim that was not held by the apostles or Christ.
When Jesus spoke he didn't insult our intelligence. He made simple statements regarding his pre-existence that could be easily understood like sharing glory with the Father “he” had before the world was. If he didn't pre-exist, then there was no “he” to share glory with the father. This is a kindergarten analysis.
There is no one scripture that contains all truths where Jesus says, I am the Son of God and I was with my Father in heaven as his Son and he is my Father who revealed himself as the Almighty and Jehovah in the Old Testament, and I was begotten of him before the world began and created all things by his power and was incarnated in the womb of Mary by the Spirit of God my Father, which is also known as the Holy Ghost. While all these truths are contained in scripture, they must be gathered together.
Seek and ye shall find like as treasure “hid” in a field.
Lets us look at what John the Baptist said regarding the pre-existence of Christ.
John the Baptist said there is one coming after me who is preferred before me, the “shoelachets” of whom I am not worthy to unloose. Unless you believe the Father wears shoes, this could only be referring to the Son of God.
When John says the shoelachets of whom I am not worthy to unloose he could only be referring to Jesus (as opposed to the Father in Jesus) because the Father did not appear in the flesh, but remained in heaven. The Father was in Christ by the Spirit, which was given to Christ without measure. The reference to the shoelachets makes it clear that John was referring to the person Christ Jesus, not his Father and not the Word, which is also God. Moreover, to bolster this truth it is written in all four gospels. This was the testimony of John the Baptist of Christ pre-existence.
Jesus said I know from whence I came and I am returning to where I was before. If Christ wasn't in heaven before coming to earth, then he lied, which is impossible. He also asked his disciples, what and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up to where he was before? John 6:62 Here, Jesus is stating he, the son of man, was before in heaven, thereby, establishing his pre-existence as the Son of God. He wasn't the Son of Man until his incarnation.
In John 8:58, Jesus said he existed before Abraham. The entire chapter centers on the truth that Jesus is the Son of God. Every time Christ refers to his Father and knowing him, he is proclaiming the inherent truth that he is the Son of God. By contrast, because they reject him, they know not God, but are children of the devil. His statement that he existed before Abraham is unambiguous. Jesus isn't stating the Father was before Abraham. That is never the issue. The entire issue is who Jesus is and where he's from. Jesus never declares the Holy Spirit conceived him about 33 years ago. Christ never even refers to his earthly birth because he was from above, not from this world. He stated he was sent from the Father in heaven and would return there.
In John 8:41 the Jews state that they have one Father, even God. They believed that they were sons of God, too. The irony was that they claimed that Christ should be crucified for making the same claim they made themselves.
The entire essence of being sent from God requires that Christ be with the Father to be sent by him. Just as the disciples had to be with Jesus before being sent into the world by him.
When Christ said he came down from heaven he stated he was in heaven prior as the Son of God. Otherwise, whom is “he” referring to? The Word is not a person, it is the seed of God, the life of God, which was, is and is to come. The word is unchangeable. The word remains with God and is God.
All of us are born of the word. We are born from above. Christ was sent from above, that's the difference. Hence, if Christ did not pre-exist as the Son of God, then he is no different than any of us with respect to being born from above.
Jesus said the bread of God is he (Jesus the Son of God) which cometh down from heaven and giveth life unto the world. John 6:33
Jesus also said in John 6:38 that he came down from heaven not to do his own will, but the will of him who sent him. This scripture is huge. It contains the truths that Christ was in heaven prior to coming to earth, that he had a will in heaven, thereby establishing himself as the Son of God in Heaven, unless you believe that the Son of God changed from being someone or thing other than the Son of God. Christ does not change. Hebrews 13:8 Here, we see that Jesus had a will in heaven. A word does not have a will. The word is life. Those who are born and created by God have wills.
The scriptures are very expressive regarding Christ pre-existence as a person, not an angel, not a spirit, and not the Word which is God.
Steven
Steve,
If Yeshua is the second Adam (and he is according to Paul), do you then accept that the first Adam came down from heaven as well?
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2007,19:31) Hi kejonn. I wrote a post for you on the previous page.
Not sure if you got it.
I don't necessarily agree with it, but I gave it as food for thought.
I have worked on it some. I have the rest saved for later
.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 05 2007,11:25) Although it is debatable too whether he preexisted regarding the coming again of Elijah. But that is another discussion.
I realize that this topic would indeed be another subject, but just as a quick thought – if JTB was really Elijah coming again, wouldn't that be reincarnation?To a large degree, I believe that if Jesus preexisted as a spirit son prior to his true conception in Mary, he also would be considered a sort-of reincarnation.
God begets a spirit son.
God impregnates Mary and Mary conceives (adding her DNA).
Spirit son is now altered from original state in heaven.Thoughts?
To say that Christ didn't preexist is to say that Christ didn't humble himself and come down from Heaven and return to the glory that he had before with the Father.
Instead it would be assume that he was born through Mary as a man, and did the job of the second Adam (for even the first Adam's dad was God), and he died and was taken up for the first time into heaven and is seated at the right hand of his Father as a perfect man.
Personally however, I find that the scriptures are overwhelmingly swayed toward Christ's preexistence. I also find the arguments against the scriptures used to show the preexistence of Christ to be weak. Although I am keeping an open mind.
For example, a while ago I quoted this scripture to a member here who held that Christ didn't preexist and gave that person the following verse:
Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Which is similar to:
Romans 15:12
And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him.”This person said that root can also mean branch. So in that case we render the verse as saying that he is the branch and offspring. I agree that branch can be used, but I would assume that the branch is still a preceding branch or a source and not one that grows afterward.
So I looked up other uses of that word and root was used in a sense that we understand it today. i.e., the source or origin of a thing.
E.g., “The love of money is the root of all evil”.
That said, I remain open to the possibility that Christ didn't preexist as I do not want to end up like a die hard stubborn Trinitarian who cannot be swayed by scripture.
But therein lies what will sway me, namely scripture. To date I haven't seen good teaching using scripture to support the view that Christ came into existence, first as a man born from Mary and I find the arguments against the preexistence scriptures to be a little hard to swallow.
E.g., How do you render the fact that Christ said, “before Abraham, I am” to mean that he didn't preexist?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 06 2007,09:10) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 05 2007,11:25) Although it is debatable too whether he preexisted regarding the coming again of Elijah. But that is another discussion.
I realize that this topic would indeed be another subject, but just as a quick thought – if JTB was really Elijah coming again, wouldn't that be reincarnation?To a large degree, I believe that if Jesus preexisted as a spirit son prior to his true conception in Mary, he also would be considered a sort-of reincarnation.
God begets a spirit son.
God impregnates Mary and Mary conceives (adding her DNA).
Spirit son is now altered from original state in heaven.Thoughts?
Reincarnation also alludes to karma etc.Jesus is coming again, in a body for the second time. That is our hope, although not in the same fashion that he came as a man the first time.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 05 2007,15:26) Kejonn and others; If you believe what Jesus said is ambiguous or can be explained otherwise, see what the apostles said and see if their interpretation is consistent with yours.
Let's look at a statement Jesus said and see if any of the apostles confirmed your interpretation. Jesus said, “I came down from heaven.”
You might argue that statement can be easily explained because the Holy Spirit came down from heaven and Christ was conceived. So did any apostles make that same interpretation or what did they say?
Paul said that Christ was the second Adam and was the Lord from heaven. Paul even writes to the Colossians that Christ created all things in heaven and in earth. If he created all things he had to have been there. Think about it, could a stronger claim be made for pre-existence?
So it seems. But the context of that whole chapter is in reference to the new creation, i.e., the new heaven and new earth. The first clue is this first verse:Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
When was the original creation referred to as Yeshua's kingdom? But we know he will be Lord over the new heaven and new earth. The rest of the chapter also points to the new creation.
Quote It's also helpful to remember how were we born again. Did not the spirit of God descend upon them in the book of Acts in cloven tongues of fire? Are we not born of the incorruptible seed, the word of God?
Was this not similar to Yeshua's baptism? The difference is that his physical birth was by man and Spirit while ours is purely human.Quote Based upon these facts, do any of the apostles claim that they came down from heaven or are returning to where they were before the foundation of the world with the Father? Do any of the apostles pray in a manner, which indicates they, or any believer was with the Father before the world was? In short, Jesus made claims that none of us can make because he pre-existed with the Father. It's not leaping off the pages to the untrained eye, but do you notice he says he was with the Father. If he is calling him Father, that makes Jesus his Son, not the Word, not an angel, not a spirit. When was he his Father? Before the world was. That makes Christ the Son of God before the world was.
But he called Him Father while he walked the earth, correct?You have a large dilemma in your statement. Like begets like. If the Father is pure spirit and God, and Yeshua is begotten before the earth and not created, then he too is God. There is no escaping this. He is not YHWH, but he is God nonetheless. So either you accept the Trinity or some form of poly or henotheism. Henotheism is just another form of polytheism that says there is one big God and one or more little gods. Your speculation can only be reconciled with one of these scenarios. That is why WJ says the Trinity is the only way to reconcile scripture. And it IS a way if you think that it escapes poly or henotheism. I still think that the Trinity is polytheistic though, so its just a fancy way to avoid an unbecoming label.
Quote So if you conclude that Christ did not come down from heaven where he pre-existed, but only with respect to the Holy Spirit coming down from heaven, you are making a claim that was not held by the apostles or Christ.
Are you certain? Perhaps, but at this point it is more like I hold to a different view of what they said than you do. Why did they not make it abundantly clear that Yeshua was something else before he came to earth? If Yeshua was “wisdom” why did he have to grow in wisdom? If he was the Word why would he only say what he hears the Father say?Quote When Jesus spoke he didn't insult our intelligence. He made simple statements regarding his pre-existence that could be easily understood like sharing glory with the Father “he” had before the world was. If he didn't pre-exist, then there was no “he” to share glory with the father. This is a kindergarten analysis.
Haha, a few underhanded insults don't become you. The glory he had was in the plan of the Father. The Messiah has been foreordained from the beginning. Let me ask you, if Yeshua had glory with the Father because he pre-existed, what does this verse say to you?2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
This verse says we had grace before the ages began! So that means that all who have come to a saving knowledge of Christ must have pre-existed. I wish I could remember that past life…
Not only that, but why didn't Yeshua speak of the other things he did in the previous 4000 years? Did he sit back and wait until he had to come to earth? And if he was begotten by God without Mary before he came, he was God, and could not have been tempted, neither could he die. Those 2 things are impossible for with God.
Getting back to the growing in wisdom part, what more wisdom would a heavenly creature over 4000 years old need to aquire? Surely he wouldn't gain any more in just a few short years than he did waiting on his earthly arrival.
Quote There is no one scripture that contains all truths where Jesus says, I am the Son of God and I was with my Father in heaven as his Son and he is my Father who revealed himself as the Almighty and Jehovah in the Old Testament, and I was begotten of him before the world began and created all things by his power and was incarnated in the womb of Mary by the Spirit of God my Father, which is also known as the Holy Ghost. While all these truths are contained in scripture, they must be gathered together.
Indeed.Quote Seek and ye shall find like as treasure “hid” in a field. Lets us look at what John the Baptist said regarding the pre-existence of Christ.
John the Baptist said there is one coming after me who is preferred before me, the “shoelachets” of whom I am not worthy to unloose. Unless you believe the Father wears shoes, this could only be referring to the Son of God.
Yes, he is preferred before him. But what does that have to do with pre-existance? Its quite obvious that this would be the case with the Messiah.Quote When John says the shoelachets of whom I am not worthy to unloose he could only be referring to Jesus (as opposed to the Father in Jesus) because the Father did not appear in the flesh, but remained in heaven. The Father was in Christ by the Spirit, which was given to Christ without measure. The reference to the shoelachets makes it clear that John was referring to the person Christ Jesus, not his Father and not the Word, which is also God. Moreover, to bolster this truth it is written in all four gospels. This was the testimony of John the Baptist of Christ pre-existence.
No. It spoke of his pre-eminance, not pre-existance. Did Yeshua not say that John the Baptist was the least in heaven? We already know that Yeshua is second only to his Father, so its plainly obvious to see who was greater in God's eyes.Quote Jesus said I know from whence I came and I am returning to where I was before. If Christ wasn't in heaven before coming to earth, then he lied, which is impossible. He also asked his disciples, what and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up to where he was before? John 6:62 Here, Jesus is stating he, the son of man, was before in heaven, thereby, establishing his pre-existence as the Son of God. He wasn't the Son of Man until his incarnation.
Already explained. His parentage was from above. Where does it say humans go when they die? Back to the earth. But did we come from the earth? Adam did, but we all came from our parents. So our bodies return the ground that the first man was made from, but our spirits will reside with God and the Lamb in heaven. Yeshua's heritage is from above, so he ascended to heaven and does not wait on the resurrection like we all will.Quote In John 8:58, Jesus said he existed before Abraham. The entire chapter centers on the truth that Jesus is the Son of God. Every time Christ refers to his Father and knowing him, he is proclaiming the inherent truth that he is the Son of God. By contrast, because they reject him, they know not God, but are children of the devil. His statement that he existed before Abraham is unambiguous. Jesus isn't stating the Father was before Abraham. That is never the issue. The entire issue is who Jesus is and where he's from. Jesus never declares the Holy Spirit conceived him about 33 years ago. Christ never even refers to his earthly birth because he was from above, not from this world. He stated he was sent from the Father in heaven and would return there.
Why would he have to talk about his birth? It is already recorded for us. The origins of the Messiah preceded Abraham. The promise was given to Abraham thousands of years prior, so the plan was already in place. Abraham was promised that his seed (the Messiah) would bless the nations. That is why Abraham is specifically mentioned.Quote In John 8:41 the Jews state that they have one Father, even God. They believed that they were sons of God, too. The irony was that they claimed that Christ should be crucified for making the same claim they made themselves.
Well, there is one large difference. They called God their Father, but you never see them say they were the sons of God like Yeshua did. I know this sounds odd, but it was in the title.Quote The entire essence of being sent from God requires that Christ be with the Father to be sent by him. Just as the disciples had to be with Jesus before being sent into the world by him.
What of all the other prophets sent by God?Quote When Christ said he came down from heaven he stated he was in heaven prior as the Son of God. Otherwise, whom is “he” referring to? The Word is not a person, it is the seed of God, the life of God, which was, is and is to come. The word is unchangeable. The word remains with God and is God.
If you say that Yeshua has always been the Son and he is not the Word, then what does it mean “and the Word became flesh”?Quote All of us are born of the word. We are born from above. Christ was sent from above, that's the difference. Hence, if Christ did not pre-exist as the Son of God, then he is no different than any of us with respect to being born from above.
How many of us were conceived by one human parent and one parent of Spirit? We are children by adoption, not physical birth. So none of us can make the same claim regardless as our heritage is purely human.Quote Jesus said the bread of God is he (Jesus the Son of God) which cometh down from heaven and giveth life unto the world. John 6:33
Ditto.Quote Jesus also said in John 6:38 that he came down from heaven not to do his own will, but the will of him who sent him. This scripture is huge. It contains the truths that Christ was in heaven prior to coming to earth, that he had a will in heaven, thereby establishing himself as the Son of God in Heaven, unless you believe that the Son of God changed from being someone or thing other than the Son of God. Christ does not change. Hebrews 13:8 Here, we see that Jesus had a will in heaven. A word does not have a will. The word is life. Those who are born and created by God have wills.
But He DID change: he took on flesh. He was carried in a womb and born. He died. How can none of those things be considered a change?Quote The scriptures are very expressive regarding Christ pre-existence as a person, not an angel, not a spirit, and not the Word which is God. Steven
And by that very last claim you have now accepted the trinity. The trinity says that Yeshua is a person of God. You say he is a person, and that he was begotten, not created, of the Father before his humanity. Thus, that which is begotten purely of God must be God, and WJ is correct. To accept this you must accept the Trinity.I agree with kejonn on his last part that the trinity explains all this in a neat little package (ha ha) but that is another thread.:p
Yes Chip, you are right to some extent. Here is the scenario for pre-existance:
- Eternally begotten of God – Yeshua is God. The result therefore is henotheism, polytheism, or the Trinity
- Created by God – Yeshua is an angel or some similar being, but of higher rank. But this does not fit verse where God said made all things by Himself.
- An extension of the power of God – Yeshua is not a separate entity, but an entension of God's nature. Would this actually be pre-existing as an extension of God would not have a free will?
That pretty much sums it up. I cannot think of any other possible explanation.
What about God > Christ > Man > Woman
So Christ came from God, the woman from man, and man from Christ in the sense that all things were created through him.
Except Christ was the first of God's works and he then created all creation through him and for him.
Christ was begotten in eternity and then created all things through him.
Whether he was the Word (as a person) and angel/messenger, son, spirit, or whatever, he existed before all things, but obviously after God himself.
Christ isn't created because creation is defined as deriving from Christ by God. So Christ is the only begotten from God and creation is derived thereafter.
This makes Christ a son and the only begotten son.
The paradox is simply this. That God always has and always will exist. We strive to find beginings and endings what we think is a staight line confined within time(for now we are temporary) God is a circle there is no right or left no start or end that you can plainly see on a straight line. Not getting to heady and getting of on some tangent I believe that Christ was only a Son (of man or God) while he was on the earth. Before that he was the same as our new state or adams created state before the fall within the Father. When we recieve our new body (and that is promised) I imagine it will be the way adam's was originally when it was created perfect by God.(For God would not have anything impure or corrupt before him.) and say that it was good. I agree with t8 that Christ is not created, and all things were created by Him, also that all is for Him. We probably part ways on the begotten from eternity I believe begotten from birth hope this helps Chip
chipwhite Why is it that it is so hard to understand that Jesus was before the World was? When we have scripture to prove and also that the Father is greater then the Son that out rules the trinity as far as I can see. One does not have to do with the other. The Son is begotten from the Father, that can never make Him all like the Father. He is the image of the invisible God. Then He gave up that Glory and became a Man. By God's Holy Spirit He was implanted into the womb of Mary. So He had the mind of the Father and I believe that is why H did not Sin, He knew what was at stake, He had been taught by our Heavenly Father and knew what it was like to be a spirit being. All scriptures already given.
Chipwhite please read t8 post again, I think that t8 beliefs that Jesus did preexisted. unless I am not reading that right, please set that straight t8.
Peace and Love Mrs.:D
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,09:43) Steven[/quote]
And by that very last claim you have now accepted the trinity. The trinity says that Yeshua is a person of God. You say he is a person, and that he was begotten, not created, of the Father before his humanity. Thus, that which is begotten purely of God must be God, and WJ is correct. To accept this you must accept the Trinity.
overanalizing?
confused: “that which is begotten purely of God must be God” How do you conclude that?Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 06 2007,09:10) To a large degree, I believe that if Jesus preexisted as a spirit son prior to his true conception in Mary, he also would be considered a sort-of reincarnation. God begets a spirit son.
God impregnates Mary and Mary conceives (adding her DNA).
Spirit son is now altered from original state in heaven.Thoughts?
Reincarnation: Jesus preexistence was not “carnal' He was a spirit being; so He could not reincarnate.incarnation would be the right term. It is pretty well documented that Jesus was with GOD His FATHER in heaven. That does not mean or is the same as “Jesus was GOD”[trinity]. That would be an assumption not a deduction. It only means what it says : That he was WITH GOD. Not that he was GOD.Elaine,
If a human begets, he begets another human. If a dog begets, he begets another dog. On and on. With the earthly conception of Yeshua, you have Spirit Father and human mother. You get the Messiah. But if God begets without the human factor, the only choice is God. This has nothing to do with overanalysis, it is common sense. Unless so say Yeshua was created, than he could be an angel or something similar. If he is begotten, he is God.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,16:40) Elaine, If he is begotten, he is God.
Ok now I am really confused
Do you believe in the trinity? the word BEGOTTEN is said by GOD right ? somewhere in the scriptures? If it is used by GOD then based on your statement JESUS Is GOD? I tought you did not believe in trinity. are these postings too complicated for my knowledge? I am not a scholar and never will be, but I think I have common sense. I know somewhere in the scriptures it talks about human wisdom being stupid at GOD's eyes. maybe we are overanalizing? I do not mean to put anybody down you or nobody I am just being very honest. I am confused by all of these statements from you brothers and sisters they go over my head. is not all possible with GOD? then why we come to these ilogical conclusions when we should know that our human understanding is nothing compare to Jehovas wisdom?
Kejohn I did not mean any cinisism by my comments. I am sincerely confused. maybe I should read this from the beginning. maybe I did not catch the right thought. Love and peace, elaine
Quote (elaine1809 @ Oct. 06 2007,16:35) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 06 2007,09:10) To a large degree, I believe that if Jesus preexisted as a spirit son prior to his true conception in Mary, he also would be considered a sort-of reincarnation. God begets a spirit son.
God impregnates Mary and Mary conceives (adding her DNA).
Spirit son is now altered from original state in heaven.Thoughts?
Reincarnation: Jesus preexistence was not “carnal' He was a spirit being; so He could not reincarnate.incarnation would be the right term. It is pretty well documented that Jesus was with GOD His FATHER in heaven. That does not mean or is the same as “Jesus was GOD”[trinity]. That would be an assumption not a deduction. It only means what it says : That he was WITH GOD. Not that he was GOD.
Elaine,Where is it documented that “Jesus” was with God, his Father, in heaven? Thanks.
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