Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,

2Peter 1
16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. “

mK 9
” 1And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

2And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

3And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

4And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

5And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

6For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.

7And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

8And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves'

Was this a first meeting of Christ with Moses and Elijah?

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2007,11:42)

Hi 94, Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Hi Nick:

The question is when did he say this?  He was born into the world as an infant, and he could not speak at this time, and when he says “a body thou hast prepared for me”.  What does he mean by “me”?

God Bless

[Not3in1]

The scriptures you shared speak of God using his voice to tell those listening that Jesus is his Son. These verses say nothing of the Son being with God physically prior to his birth and life on earth. Do you have other scriptures that give you the idea that your theology is a NT teaching?

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2007,23:22)

Hi not3, 2Peter 1 16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. “ mK 9 ” 1And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. 2And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 6For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 8And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves' Was this a first meeting of Christ with Moses and Elijah?

The appearance of Moses & Elijah and the transfiguration was a vision which fulfilled Christ's prophecy spoken of in Matt. 16.28, Mark 9.1 & Luke 9.27

Hence what the 3 disciples saw was a a vision of the Son of Man in his Coming Kingdom with Moses & Elijah
(cp. Luke 13.28 … ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God …)
Hence they were eyewitnesses of his Coming (Parousia) thus Peter's statement in 2 Pet 1.16.

Therefore Jesus instructed them …
(Mat 17:9)  And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

What the disciples saw as a vision will be fulfilled at the return of Christ

[NickHassan]

Quote (942767 @ June 12 2007,11:44)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2007,11:42) Hi 94, Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Hi Nick: The question is when did he say this?  He was born into the world as an infant, and he could not speak at this time, and when he says “a body thou hast prepared for me”.  What does he mean by “me”? God Bless

Hi 94,
He is not a body, but like Paul in 2 Cor5, the flesh and blood aspect is as his tent in which he lived. That tent was prepared for him.

Ps 40
“6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

9I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest. “

Since the Christ was anointed at the Jordan his ears would have been opened then to know the inner leading of the Spirit of God.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ June 12 2007,22:56)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2007,23:22) Hi not3, 2Peter 1 16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. “ mK 9 ” 1And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. 2And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 6For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 8And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves' Was this a first meeting of Christ with Moses and Elijah? The appearance of Moses & Elijah and the transfiguration was a vision which fulfilled Christ's prophecy spoken of in Matt. 16.28, Mark 9.1 & Luke 9.27 Hence what the 3 disciples saw was a a vision of the Son of Man in his Coming Kingdom with Moses & Elijah (cp. Luke 13.28 … ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God …) Hence they were eyewitnesses of his Coming (Parousia) thus Peter's statement in 2 Pet 1.16. Therefore Jesus instructed them … (Mat 17:9)  And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. What the disciples saw as a vision will be fulfilled at the return of Christ

Hi AP,
So he was not transfigured at all?
Christ did not speak with Moses and Elijah?
No sign of anyone coming or going, only three having a chat it seems to me.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2007,09:52)

Quote (942767 @ June 12 2007,11:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2007,11:42) Hi 94, Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Hi Nick: The question is when did he say this?  He was born into the world as an infant, and he could not speak at this time, and when he says “a body thou hast prepared for me”.  What does he mean by “me”? God Bless Hi 94, He is not a body, but like Paul in 2 Cor5, the flesh and blood aspect is as his tent in which he lived. That tent was prepared for him. Ps 40 “6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. 7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, 8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. 9I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest. “ Since the Christ was anointed at the Jordan his ears would have been opened then to know the inner leading of the Spirit of God.

Hi Nick:

Exactly, the “me” that he is talking about is the “bread of life that came down from heaven” that he is.  The Word of God that he obeyed.

Psalm 40:8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, THY LAW IS WITHIN MY HEART.

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Indeed Christ is the bread of life, the bread that men can live on alone in eternity, who came down from heaven in obedience and to obey rather than to seek equality in heaven with God.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2007,11:37)

Hi 94, Indeed Christ is the bread of life, the bread that men can live on alone in eternity, who came down from heaven in obedience and to obey rather than to seek equality in heaven with God.

No Nick:

I don't quite see it that way.  The Father taught his Son just as any Father would teach his son, and Jesus obeyed Him without sin even unto death on the cross.  He was perfected through obedience to God's Word.  

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;  
5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;  

John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

I have already given you my understanding relative to the humility.

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
And enabled by the Spirit of God to become perfect

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2007,12:00)

Hi 94, And enabled by the Spirit of God to become perfect

Hi Nick:

What do you mean by “enabled by the Spirit of God”?

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Christ did nothing in his own strength. That is why he succeeded in obeying perfectly. That is why we are able to do the same following him. He was under the Law of the Spirit which caused him and leads us to obey God. We too can he filled with and led by and empowered by the same Spirit of God.

Phil2
” 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
Phil4
” 13I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. “
John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2007,15:58)

Hi 94, Christ did nothing in his own strength. That is why he succeeded in obeying perfectly. That is why we are able to do the same following him. He was under the Law of the Spirit which caused him and leads us to obey God. We too can he filled with and led by and empowered by the same Spirit of God. Phil2 ” 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Phil4 ” 13I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. “ John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Hi Nick:

You say:

Quote

Hi 94, Christ did nothing in his own strength. That is why he succeeded in obeying perfectly.

If this is the case, then why can't we obey perfectly?

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
We cannot do because we do not know we can.
We do not do because we do not know we should.
We do not have because we do not know we lack.
We do not get because we do not ask God in faith.
We do not ask because we don't know what is available to us.
2Peter 1
” 2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Indeed such is our potential.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

When Christ returns will there be any faith on the earth?

We do not have because we do not ask.[James]

[david]

COLOSSIANS 1:15-16
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.”

Not3in1, on the first page of this thread you write: “I have yet to read from the letter's of Paul stories surrounding Jesus' life before he joined us.”

Well now you have.

Speaking of Jesus, you say:

Quote

Did he think we didn't need to know about his former life?

Yes, is the obvious and plain answer. Yes. He did think that. What would he have told us? Would he have explained all the things of the spirit realm?

We are told what we need to know, for our benefit and encouragement.

2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17
“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.”

ROMANS 15:4
“For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.”

[TimothyVI]

Quote (david @ June 13 2007,18:41)

COLOSSIANS 1:15-16 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.” Not3in1, on the first page of this thread you write: “I have yet to read from the letter's of Paul stories surrounding Jesus' life before he joined us.” Well now you have.

Hi David,

Col 1:16 KJV For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

In this verse two completely different Greek words were translated to say “by”. Why do you think that is? You can make any verse fit your theology through different translations of words.
The Greek word en is translated “by” first. Then the Greek word dia is translated to be “by”.
Do you think that there may have been a reason that two different words were actually used?

Col 1:16 could just as clearly be read this way.

For in him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created for the sake of him, and into him:

This clearly says that in Jesus was created everything that was ever created.
Jesus is a compilation of ALL there is.

I won’t argue this possible interpretation of Col. I just want to point out that many verses can be made to say whatever you want to hear. The fact is that many of the translations in the bible were actually interpretations, and not strict translations.

Col 1:16 is used to support the reasoning of those that believe that John 1 tells us that Jesus pre existed as another being. I am not convinced that John 1 tells us that at all.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim,
You say
“This clearly says that in Jesus was created everything that was ever created.
Jesus is a compilation of ALL there is.”

Given then that creation happened a long time ago it gives little credence to those who say Christ has only existed for 2000 years.

[Not3in1]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 14 2007,01:00)

I won’t argue this possible interpretation of Col. I just want to point out that many verses can be made to say whatever you want to hear. The fact is that many of the translations in the bible were actually interpretations, and not strict translations. Col 1:16 is used to support the reasoning of those that believe that John 1 tells us that Jesus pre existed as another being. I am not convinced that John 1 tells us that at all.

Of course I agree with you completely.

It makes me wonder though – if many verses can say what we want them to say according to our own peculiar theologies (and in fact they do)……can we trust the Bible?

I've been thinking about this recently – why did God allow for there to be so many interpretations?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
So we would plead for wisdom.

[kenrch]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 14 2007,10:00)

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 14 2007,01:00) I won’t argue this possible interpretation of Col. I just want to point out that many verses can be made to say whatever you want to hear. The fact is that many of the translations in the bible were actually interpretations, and not strict translations. Col 1:16 is used to support the reasoning of those that believe that John 1 tells us that Jesus pre existed as another being. I am not convinced that John 1 tells us that at all. Of course I agree with you completely. It makes me wonder though – if many verses can say what we want them to say according to our own peculiar theologies (and in fact they do)……can we trust the Bible?   I've been thinking about this recently – why did God allow for there to be so many interpretations?

Many interpretations. Many denominations. Much confusion!

In Spirit and Truth wherever the truth is found. All denominations and interpretations have SOME truth aren't we suppose to depend on the Spirit?

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I won't get into “Who the Spirit of Truth is”

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