Preexistence

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 25 2011,18:42)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 22 2010,04:54)

Irene………..You do not believe Jesus came into existence as a Human being , you believe he was a there as a disguised Past existing being just as the Gnostic's did, the only difference is that you think he was “Morphed” into a human being from a past existence, While they believed he just appeared as a Human being but was really not , but the (BOTTOM LINE) remains the same you both are separatists and both separate Jesus' identity from our identity. No difference at all really, and for this cause i say you both Trinitarians and Preexistences are Antichrists. NO not I but the Apostle John does. IMO

peace and love to you and Georg……………………………………..gene

Here, you said that I have the Spirit of Anti-Christ…Irene

Kerwin, right here…..and He is wrong as far as the Gnostic go. I looked that up. There believes are far different then ours…

April 1, 2011 at 4:31 pm#241517

Participant

Gnostic then and now….taken from the internet. There are several Article on this. I looked for one that explained what they believed what Jesus was to them….here is what they believe….

Christ: The role of the redeemer in Gnostic belief is heavily debated at this time. Gnostics seem to have looked upon Christ as a revealer or liberator, rather than a savior or judge. His purpose was to spread knowledge which would free individuals from the Demiurge's control and allow them to return to their spiritual home with the Supreme God at death. Some Gnostic groups promoted Docetism, the belief that Christ was pure spirit and only had a phantom body; Jesus just appeared to be human to his followers. They reasoned that a true emissary from the Supreme God could not have been overcome by the evil of the world, and to have suffered and died. These beliefs were considered heresy by many non-Gnostic Christians. Some Gnostics believed that Christ's resurrection occurred at or before Jesus' death on the cross. They defined his resurrection as occurring when his spirit was liberated from his body. Many Gnostic believed that Jesus had both male and female disciples.

This is far from the belief that we do. We always have said that Jesus was born of Maria. There is no Scripture that I know of that says you have to believe that Jesus only became in existing by Maria. But thre is that He was in the form of God. Phil 2

Peace irene

April 1, 2011 at 11:08 pm#241559

Participant

All

question if a doctor places the seed of men in the women from a test tube ,is he the father of that new born

if not why not???

pierre

April 1, 2011 at 11:48 pm#241566

Participant

Pierre! yes, He is the Father….. But that really don't belong here, does it?
Peace Irene

April 2, 2011 at 12:51 am#241578

Participant

Quote (Baker @ April 02 2011,17:48)

Pierre! yes, He is the Father….. But that really don't belong here, does it?
Peace Irene

Irene

so according to you ;if the doctor fertilize you with the sperm of your husband ,the doctor is the father of your child is that what you are telling me

answer this and i will show you the connection to the tread

Pierre

April 2, 2011 at 3:26 am#241608

Participant

Hi Irene and anyone else interested,

I am going to communicate to you my best reasonable argument of logic as to why Jesus did not pre-exist. First, I am going to qualify whom I am talking about when I say Jesus. This is Jesus the man. The fleshy bit of Jesus. This includes his functioning brain tissue. This does not include the mind that is in Jesus. This is the anointed bit of Jesus. The Christ mind. I will now present some scripture that talks about the Christ mind.

Quote

Philippians 2:3-5 (King James Version)

3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

I think that it is telling in this scripture that the word Christ precedes Jesus, therefore acting as a modifier, also emphasizing the Christ bit.

Quote

Philippians 4:6-8 (King James Version)

6Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

7And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

The Christ mind did pre-exist the body of Jesus. It did in prophecy, In God's mind, if you will. Adam and Eve did not have the Christ mind. The only reason one can think of is, God did not see a need for it at that time. Otherwise, They would have been made/created with the Christ mind. God, thereafter, created the Christ mind. Why he waited so long to have it born from above via the Holy Spirit into the body of Jesus, God only knows. He hasn't revealed that to me, OK? So now, when Jesus was born of Mary the mind of Christ is inhabiting a vessel. It's a baby Christ mind and now Jesus Christ(the Christed/anointed one) learns and grows in wisdom. Fortunately for him he is super-smart and is the light, the truth, and the way. The testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy.
The mind of Christ had glory with the Father(God) the moment God conceived the Christ mind. Which was before(timewise) the Christ mind inhabited Jesus body. Which was before(in front of for all to see) in the written prophecies.

Quote

John 17:5 (King James Version)

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Now this bit of scripture requires some discernment. I submit it was translated thus to support trinitarian based doctrine and here is why.(reference used the netbible)

Quote

John 17:5 και νυν δοξασον με συ πατερ παρα σεαυτω τη δοξη η ειχον προ του τον κοσμον ειναι παρα σοι

Quote

John 17:5 και νυν δοξασον με συ πατερ παρα σεαυτω τη δοξη η ειχον προ του τον κοσμον ειναι παρα σοι
and now glorify me you Father at your side this glory which I have in front of this that world to be from to you

Quote

Just as a sidebar, this was hard work because the letters in greek get translated to unicode in the previewer. To get the spacing right required me to translate greek to unicode to english and counting of letters.

This is a present tense sentence referring to an on-going process(the glory). One could easily translate this to say:

Quote

and now you glorify me Father at your side with this glory which i have in front of the world, this world that exists because of you.

All the glory goes to God as the creator of all things all by himself, just like in Genesis and scripture is harmonized.( that song “I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony” is going through my mind now just to share a thought.)
The following flowchart or diagram sums up what Paladin has been trying(bless his heart) to communicate to you about the John 1:1-14.

The Word = Logos
Jesus Christ = Logos become flesh
Jesus Christ = new covenat(Christ mind=one in purpose,life and spirit with God)
Saint = Christ mind living in the saint

The reason the word “him” is used in John 1:1-5 is because “Word” is the masculine noun being referred to. The verses John 1:2-5 are describing the qualities of the “Word”. There is also the greek word “pros” translated “with” in John 1:1, “pros” also means “toward” as in a direction proceeding. My understanding of this is that the Word was not outwardly expressed. Like a thought conceived, before it is spoken, once spoken, a word or words are used. The contents of the “Word” is the Christ mind/gospel.The beginning is the beginning of the realization of all creation perceived and renewed with the Christ mind. God initiated this new enhanced reality using Jesus's body.John 1:6-19 is John's testimony of Jesus Christ and the promise to become like him(a son/daughter of God by believing on him.

To be honest, I know that I have at least the beginnings of the Christ mind in me. I believe that the fullness of the Christ mind is delivered via the Holy Spirit by living in the spirit of Jesus Christ's teachings and doing the Fathers will.
What I presented here is my best effort at this point in time.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

April 2, 2011 at 3:51 am#241611

Participant

Quote (Wispring @ April 02 2011,21:26)

Hi Irene and anyone else interested,

Quote

Philippians 2:3-5 (King James Version)

3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

I think that it is telling in this scripture that the word Christ precedes Jesus, therefore acting as a modifier, also emphasizing the Christ bit.

Quote

Philippians 4:6-8 (King James Version)

6Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

7And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Quote

John 17:5 (King James Version)

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Now this bit of scripture requires some discernment. I submit it was translated thus to support trinitarian based doctrine and here is why.(reference used the netbible)

Quote

John 17:5 και νυν δοξασον με συ πατερ παρα σεαυτω τη δοξη η ειχον προ του τον κοσμον ειναι παρα σοι

Quote

This is a present tense sentence referring to an on-going process(the glory). One could easily translate this to say:

Quote

and now you glorify me Father at your side with this glory which i have in front of the world, this world that exists because of you.

The Word = Logos
Jesus Christ = Logos become flesh
Jesus Christ = new covenat(Christ mind=one in purpose,life and spirit with God)
Saint = Christ mind living in the saint

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

wispring

it is good but no sale,I do not buy .

It does not answer many question and have to trow away many scriptures ,

for now I still firmly believe
in the pre existence of Christ the son of God

Pierre

April 2, 2011 at 3:56 am#241613

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2011,11:51)

Quote (Baker @ April 02 2011,17:48)

Pierre! yes, He is the Father….. But that really don't belong here, does it?
Peace Irene

Irene

so according to you ;if the doctor fertilize you with the sperm of your husband ,the doctor is the father of your child is that what you are telling me

answer this and i will show you the connection to the tread

Pierre

Did I understand you wrong then? If the Sperm comes from my Husband, the Father is my Husband. I did not understand you first question. of course its not the Doctors. Give me a break….Irene

April 2, 2011 at 3:59 am#241615

Participant

Quote (Baker @ April 02 2011,21:56)

Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2011,11:51)

Quote (Baker @ April 02 2011,17:48)

Pierre! yes, He is the Father….. But that really don't belong here, does it?
Peace Irene

Irene

so according to you ;if the doctor fertilize you with the sperm of your husband ,the doctor is the father of your child is that what you are telling me

answer this and i will show you the connection to the tread

Pierre

Did I understand you wrong then? If the Sperm comes from my Husband, the fatheer is my Husband. I did not understand you first question. of course its nhot the DEoctors. Give me a break….Irene

Irene

so it is with God it is not the holy spirit the father of Christ it is God

the holy spirit is like the doctor

Pierre

April 2, 2011 at 4:28 am#241629

Participant

Quote (Wispring @ April 02 2011,14:26)

Hi Irene and anyone else interested,

Quote

Philippians 2:3-5 (King James Version)

3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

I think that it is telling in this scripture that the word Christ precedes Jesus, therefore acting as a modifier, also emphasizing the Christ bit.

Quote

Philippians 4:6-8 (King James Version)

6Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

7And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Quote

John 17:5 (King James Version)

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Now this bit of scripture requires some discernment. I submit it was translated thus to support trinitarian based doctrine and here is why.(reference used the netbible)

Quote

John 17:5 και νυν δοξασον με συ πατερ παρα σεαυτω τη δοξη η ειχον προ του τον κοσμον ειναι παρα σοι

Quote

This is a present tense sentence referring to an on-going process(the glory). One could easily translate this to say:

Quote

and now you glorify me Father at your side with this glory which i have in front of the world, this world that exists because of you.

The Word = Logos
Jesus Christ = Logos become flesh
Jesus Christ = new covenat(Christ mind=one in purpose,life and spirit with God)
Saint = Christ mind living in the saint

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

Wispring! There are two different Scriptures that tell us that God through Jesus created all.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath tra
nslated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

He also is the firstborn of the death in
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Now let us take John 1:1-14
The Word of God was with God, and nothing was made that was not made by Him. and in verse 14 He became flesh.

I also gave you cross reference to show you that there is no other being but Christ that fits that description in
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Jesus will come back as The Word of God, and strike the nations with the wrath of God.

There is no other being that fits this description…..Jesus The Word of god. God, The word of God, KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, President, are all titles…..

The only way that this is not so, if you add to it what is really written…..Peace and Love Irene

April 2, 2011 at 5:20 am#241638

kerwin

Participant

To all,

I addressed the issue of what Gene was stating about the spirit of an anti-Christ in his thread about the Anti-Christ.

April 2, 2011 at 5:30 am#241640

Participant

Quote (Baker @ April 02 2011,03:13)

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 25 2011,18:42)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 22 2010,04:54)

peace and love to you and Georg……………………………………..gene

Here, you said that I have the Spirit of Anti-Christ…Irene

Kerwin, right here…..and He is wrong as far as the Gnostic go. I looked that up. There believes are far different then ours…

Kerwin, its this one I am talking about…..Irene

April 2, 2011 at 7:55 am#241654

Participant

Hi Irene,

This has explained to you before in the incarnation thread. I shall try again. When Jesus died and was raised into heaven to be the King of kings, and Lord of lords. That moment in time was the beginning of the new heaven and the new earth.

Quote

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Col 1:1-20 is Paul talking and praying about the new heaven and new earth.

Quote

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

If you want to equate Jesus's name with The Word of God, the verse would not have the “is called” phrase in there.It would be like:
'and his name is The Word of God'.
If you want to show by what authority Jesus Christ does things then you would have what is written in scripture. Remember, like a police officer might say “In the name of that which is called the law I order you to put that gun down!” for example.
Jesus Christ's authority is The Word of God. I hope this clears things up a bit.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

April 2, 2011 at 7:57 am#241655

Participant

Quote

The beginning is the beginning of the realization of all creation perceived and renewed with the Christ mind.

Which is also the beginning of the new heaven and new earth.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

April 2, 2011 at 8:32 am#241665

kerwin

Participant

Quote (Baker @ April 02 2011,11:30)

Quote (Baker @ April 02 2011,03:13)

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 25 2011,18:42)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 22 2010,04:54)

peace and love to you and Georg……………………………………..gene

Here, you said that I have the Spirit of Anti-Christ…Irene

Kerwin, right here…..and He is wrong as far as the Gnostic go. I looked that up. There believes are far different then ours…

Kerwin, its this one I am talking about…..Irene

OK. I read it and posted Gene regarding it in the anti Christ thread.

April 2, 2011 at 12:15 pm#241685

Participant

Quote (Wispring @ April 02 2011,18:55)

Hi Irene,

Quote

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Col 1:1-20 is Paul talking and praying about the new heaven and new earth.

Quote

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

Wispring! I gave you Rev. 19 as a reference to John 1:1 to show you that The Word of God is Jesus. I know what you are saying about the New Covenant under Jesus blood. But I don't agree that it is the New Heaven and the New earth. That has to come yet. Jesus has not come yet to strike the nations. Jesus has not come yet to start the Millennium. Do you see only the truth being taught? That will happen in the Millennium under The KINGS OF KINGS an LORD OF LORDS our Savior Jesus Christ. This earth which we live in today has been reserved for the destruction of wicked men, Satan and His demon. The Lake of Fire. Malachi speaks of that the Saints will trample on the ashes of the wicked.

Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

This has not happen yet, and will some day soon, I hope….

I find it so amazing how you and Paladin just reason away plain scriptures. Firstborn of all creation. Col. 1:15
Paul is telling the Saints about Jesus and that He is praying for them, not that He is praying in His letter. That is ridiculous. Come on be for real…… Believe what you will ….
Peace Irene

April 2, 2011 at 12:33 pm#241687

Participant

Hi Irene,
I find it amazing that you don't believe you are in the kingdom of God right now.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

April 2, 2011 at 1:26 pm#241688

Participant

Hi Irene,
If the Word of God is Jesus God would have had it stated plainlly. Not by cross-referencing scripture and infering such. Do you read my posts? Why are you so hung up on Jesus's blood? Jesus died a bloody death to fulfill prophecy. Do you think he want to be remembered for his death or for the eternal life he promises for all that follow in his way? Have your read all of Malachi? He was talking to the priests of his time in Jerusalem. He is speaking of old covenants broken. He is speaking of a judgement on Jerusalem. He is speaking of the doom of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

April 2, 2011 at 5:15 pm#241720

Participant

Quote (Wispring @ April 03 2011,06:33)

Hi Irene,
I find it amazing that you don't believe you are in the kingdom of God right now.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

wispring

your view is a little premature don t you think,look around ,of cause if it is in your head then i can not see it ,right
but the scriptures say that we live a live to move toward that goal,and so the kingdom becomes real to us and others may believe that.

Pierre

April 2, 2011 at 5:54 pm#241736