Preexistence

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2010,05:57)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 10 2010,14:45) Jesus is the first work of God as per JW/Arianism/Preexistenceism… It makes you wonder how the same people can believe that Adam is the fist man when Jesus supposedly existed before him.

It would also make you wonder how Jesus could be the “second” Adam if he did not preexist!

WJ

[Proclaimer]

Jesus existed with divine nature and emptied himself and was found as a man (human nature).

It is written and is not a hard thing to understand.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2010,08:35)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 10 2010,00:23) Actually the texts says that all things were made THROUGH him (Jesus). t8 But it also can mean “by him”. So if Jesus did not do the creating then that would mean that he was just a mere funnel that the Father worked through, like a puppet on a string, right? WJ

Think of it in the same way that God works through man. It is through him that we are redeemed.

God saved us through Jesus Christ.

Jesus said, “not my will but your will”. I would imagine that his attitude has never changed.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 10 2010,23:07)

In their view Jesus is not human at all in his preexistence.

In my view he existed in the form of God (having divine nature), emptied himself, existed in human form, then died, and returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world begun.

In fact that is also scripture's view. That is why I hold to that.

Your explanations are competing with those scriptures.

Philippians 2:6-11
6 Who, being in very nature God,
     did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
     taking the very nature of a servant,
     being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
     he humbled himself
     and became obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
     and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
     in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
     to the glory of God the Father.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 10 2010,17:43)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2010,08:35) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 10 2010,00:23) Actually the texts says that all things were made THROUGH him (Jesus). t8 But it also can mean “by him”. So if Jesus did not do the creating then that would mean that he was just a mere funnel that the Father worked through, like a puppet on a string, right? WJ Think of it in the same way that God works through man. It is through him that we are redeemed. God saved us through Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “not my will but your will”. I would imagine that his attitude has never changed.

t8

But the scritpures tell us Jesus is the “author of eternal salvation” and it was His blood that saved us right?

So Jesus is not our Savour by proxy but he is our Savour!

WJ

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 10 2010,19:45)

Jesus is the first work of God as per JW/Arianism/Preexistenceism…

According to your view, (Jesusisamancreated2000yearsagoism) what is the first work of the Father, and who was the first to exist, besides himself?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2010,09:47)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 10 2010,17:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2010,08:35) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 10 2010,00:23) Actually the texts says that all things were made THROUGH him (Jesus). t8 But it also can mean “by him”. So if Jesus did not do the creating then that would mean that he was just a mere funnel that the Father worked through, like a puppet on a string, right? WJ Think of it in the same way that God works through man. It is through him that we are redeemed. God saved us through Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “not my will but your will”. I would imagine that his attitude has never changed. t8 But the scritpures tell us Jesus is the “author of eternal salvation” and it was His blood that saved us right? So Jesus is not our Savour by proxy but he is our Savour! WJ

Jesus became a man so that we could be saved. God is not a man. Jesus did the will of the Father, so look at as the Father sending the son to die for us and that this plan is the will and plan of the Father. Jesus is the willing participant.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 10 2010,17:50)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2010,09:47) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 10 2010,17:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2010,08:35) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 10 2010,00:23) Actually the texts says that all things were made THROUGH him (Jesus). t8 But it also can mean “by him”. So if Jesus did not do the creating then that would mean that he was just a mere funnel that the Father worked through, like a puppet on a string, right? WJ Think of it in the same way that God works through man. It is through him that we are redeemed. God saved us through Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “not my will but your will”. I would imagine that his attitude has never changed. t8 But the scritpures tell us Jesus is the “author of eternal salvation” and it was His blood that saved us right? So Jesus is not our Savour by proxy but he is our Savour! WJ Jesus became a man so that we could be saved. God is not a man. Jesus did the will of the Father, so look at as the Father sending the son to die for us and that this plan is the will and plan of the Father. Jesus is the willing participant.

t8

So then to you Jesus is not the “author (aitios) of eternal salvation” but the Father is? Heb 5:8, 9

Author Greek “aitios: which means;

1) that which is the cause of anything resides, causative, causing

a) the author

1) of a cause

2) of crime or offence

WJ

[gollamudi]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 11 2010,09:48)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 10 2010,19:45) Jesus is the first work of God as per JW/Arianism/Preexistenceism… According to your view, (Jesusisamancreated2000yearsagoism) what is the first work of the Father, and who was the first to exist, besides himself?

According to my view I don't know since Bible doesn't come out with such details unless we speculate like those I mentioned above.
Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[kerwin]

Irene,

If I understand what you believe correctly then you also believe that Jesus exists in a spirit body at the present times and has since he ascended to heaven.  If that is so the why does Scripture call him a human being in 1 Timothy 2:5 even though it is clearly speaking of his state after his ascension.

I once did believe that Jesus preexisted his birth because that is what I was told throughout my life but I when discussing the subject with another who believed the same I realized how absurd it was to believe Jesus was both conceived in Mary’s womb and also existed before he was conceived.  That is like saying Adam existed before he was created by God.  At that point I began to realize that there were other ways of understanding those scriptures that I previously thought had supported Jesus’ preexistence.  

This and other like events convinced me that Peter definitely knew what he was speaking of when he stated that some Scripture is hard to understand and ignorant and corrupt people misinterpret it.  I openly confess that I have in the past been ignorant and that even now I am only suitable to be a student for the ignorance is only slowly being removed from my path.  Some aspects of the Gospel I have become confident of and this is one because it supports the claim that Jesus was tempted by evil even as we are but without sin.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 11 2010,15:37)

According to my view I don't know since Bible doesn't come out with such details unless we speculate like those I mentioned above. Thanks and peace to you Adam

Then if you do not know who the first besides God was, then you at least can't rule anyone out including Christ.

Also, we believe that the Word was with God and the Word became flesh and the apostles beheld his glory, that of Jesus Christ, the son of God. The same Jesus who returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.

But at least your honest and say that you do not know. But perhaps it is not wise given that you do not know, to try and convince people that it wasn't Christ, the Word of God who was with God in the beginning and that all things were created through him.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2010,15:49)

I once did believe that Jesus preexisted his birth because that is what I was told throughout my life but I when discussing the subject with another who believed the same I realized how absurd it was to believe Jesus was both conceived in Mary’s womb and also existed before he was conceived

If you can believe it, John the Baptist was also the Elijah to come. He is the greatest man ever born of a woman, but he who is least in the Kingdom is greater than he.

Both Christ and John were angels/messengers that were prophesied to come.

And it was Jesus who said, “before Abraham, I am”. So I and others believe that which he said. Even the Jews understood the context because they said to him before he answered, “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

In addition, why is it so hard to believe that Jesus existed in the form of God or having divine nature, emptied himself, was found in the form of man (human nature), died, rose again, and is seated at the right hand of the Father in the glory he had with the Father before the world began.

Think of it this way. God paid the highest price for you salvation. He sent the only begotten, the first born of all creation, to die for you. He didn't whip up a new creature for the job did he?

After all, if God made all things through him, then it stands to reason that he can redeem all things through him too. And the reason why Jesus is worthy is because he is the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.

[terraricca]

hi

certain things are only understood trough the spirit of truth,

and never by negotiated thinking.

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2010,10:03)

t8 So then to you Jesus is not the “author (aitios) of eternal salvation” but the Father is? Heb 5:8, 9

Yes I believe Hebrews 5:8-9
It also says this in the context of him being a son.
But your context is that he is God.

So can I put it to you that I believe Hebrews 5:8-9 more than you.

Hebrews 5:8-9 (New International Version)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 5:8-9 (New American Standard Bible)
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

So I believe he was a son. He learned obedience from his suffering. Was made perfect. And became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.

I believe all this and your belief that he is God, just wipes that away in one swoop.

How can God be made perfect. How can he learn obedience – (obedience to whom?). How can God be his own son?

So IMO, I believe this verse and your doctrine actually nullifies it.

[kerwin]

T8,

Have you ever heard of miscommunications?

It happens so often we actually made it a word. Have you ever consider that Peter is correct to state some Scripture is hard to understand. He even specifically mentioned Paul's writings.

So though you may be correct that words to the effect you state are written you are still missing the message God is giving you.

You state “found as a man” and we are told in 1st Timothy 2:5 that Jesus is a human being even now. Since scripture cannot be broken we conclude Jesus was found as a man because he is a man. Stating that a human being is man like is a strange way of speaking of my mind but to Paul I am convinced it was completely reasonable to explain his point.

His point in Philippians 2 is teaching people to be humble using Jesus as an example. I assure you that Jesus does have a godly attitude and that we are called to do the same. When Paul speaks of Jesus having the same nature as God he is obviously speaking about the same attitude he urged believers to have just before. He then uses Jesus to demonstrate humility and to describe the compensation God gave him for obedience. How you jumped to the conclusion that it is speaking of Jesus having the same “genotype” as God is a mystery that seems to be best explained by concluding you are ignorant of the gospel message.

I started this post with sarcasm which I feel is appropriate because what you stated seemed to ignore a self-evident fact of life which is that good communication is not an easy art. In communication God does his part we as human being can and do get things mixed up.

[kerwin]

Worshipping Jesus,

I believe Jesus was created in Mary’s womb in a separate act of creation from the creation of Adam. We also are created in our Mother’s wombs but as part of the same act of creation as Adam. Even though I believe Jesus was created as a separate act he is still linked to Adam though David because it was a part of Mary, a descendant of David, that he used to create Jesus instead of the dust of the ground.

Jesus, unlike Adam, walked according to the spirit of righteousness at all times and so can be said to be a life giving spirit because he demonstrated by his actions that he came from heaven the realm of the spirit. Since he comes from heaven his was and is a citizen of the realm of spirit and an alien in this realm that is ruled over by the evil one.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2010,16:33)

His point in Philippians 2 is teaching people to be humble using Jesus as an example. I assure you that Jesus does have a godly attitude and that we are called to do the same. When Paul speaks of Jesus having the same nature as God he is obviously speaking about the same attitude he urged believers to have just before. He then uses Jesus to demonstrate humility and to describe the compensation God gave him for obedience. How you jumped to the conclusion that it is speaking of Jesus having the same “genotype” as God is a mystery that seems to be best explained by concluding you are ignorant of the gospel message.

Philippians 2:6-11
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

I believe the above. It appears that you do not.

I believe that he had divine nature and you do not.

Ask anyone to read the above, and then let them decide who believes that and who doesn't.

In fact I only believe it because of scriptures like this one. Otherwise why would I make this up? There would be no benefit. I am simply acknowledging the scripture above. It appears you are denying it.

[gollamudi]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2010,16:50)

Worshipping Jesus, I believe Jesus was created in Mary’s womb in a separate act of creation from the creation of Adam.  We also are created in our Mother’s wombs but as part of the same act of creation as Adam.  Even though I believe Jesus was created as a separate act he is still linked to Adam though David because it was a part of Mary, a descendant of David, that he used to create Jesus instead of the dust of the ground. Jesus, unlike Adam, walked according to the spirit of righteousness at all times and so can be said to be a life giving spirit because he demonstrated by his actions that he came from heaven the realm of the spirit.  Since he comes from heaven his was and is a citizen of the realm of spirit and an alien in this realm that is ruled over by the evil one.

Hi brother Kerwin,
I think those are the appropriate words on Jesus the Jew if at all he was a historical person who lived on this earth 2000 years ago. All human beings who are born of their mothers are also part of this creation since Eve the mother all living also a created being. I think you are right if at all Jesus was born of a woman he is also a man after all like you and me. Even Job asks 'any one born of woman can be clean?' May be Jesus was clean as per N.T in all respects by the Spirit of God.

Peace and love
Adam

[gollamudi]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 11 2010,16:10)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 11 2010,15:37) According to my view I don't know since Bible doesn't come out with such details unless we speculate like those I mentioned above. Thanks and peace to you Adam Then if you do not know who the first besides God was, then you at least can't rule anyone out including Christ. Also, we believe that the Word was with God and the Word became flesh and the apostles beheld his glory, that of Jesus Christ, the son of God. The same Jesus who returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world began. But at least your honest and say that you do not know. But perhaps it is not wise given that you do not know, to try and convince people that it wasn't Christ, the Word of God who was with God in the beginning and that all things were created through him.

Hi brother T8,
I appreciate your response. But I am sorry to say it is also a speculation to say that the 'word' was God's first work in this creation. Infact the 'word of God' can not be created since it is God's own word and it is His own expression. Since God can not be created so His word can not be created IMO. God's word is not another person as per Hebrew scriptures. It was never meant an ontological being apart from God in the Hebrew scriptures so were 'wisdom' and 'spirit'. Please read Isa 55:

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.

9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Please see the 11th verse.. God's word is his voice that went out and created this whole universe (Ps 33:6). It was not another being apart from God the one and only. It is Christianity which created dualism by incorporating 'word of God' as another being besides One and only God. I feel John 1:1 is nothing but Polytheism if the 'word' is taken as another person besides God. Therefore I differ with Christianity.
Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[kerwin]

T8,

You are inadvertently cutting off the context of Philippians 2:6-11.  The actual topic of that argument is not Jesus but rather having and attitude the same as Jesus and that topic is mentioned in Philippians 2:5.  Verses 1:4 are a lead in to that topic.  Paul is still teaching on the same topic in verses 6-11, where it climaxes, and the teaching concludes in verse 18 of the same chapter.

You are too exclusive in focusing on verses 6-11 to hear the complete message Paul is teaching and the incomplete message you are hearing is not correct.

I have played chess and seen the same type of flaw in my style of play as I become too focused on winning in one part of the board and ended up losing the game.  

You have been taught by man but that does not mean what you were taught is true.  As I told Irene, I have been in the same situation as you and it is only be grace of God that I escaped and am currently still escaping.  All I can do is urge and even beg you to ask God to open your eyes and ears, seek to test your life and beliefs, and to take every opportunity to escape from the snares the Devil has set for you.

I know it will be tough but God is merciful and will deliver you if you persist in seeking him and his righteousness.

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