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Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2010,16:01) Quote (Ed J @ June 24 2010,13:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2010,13:10) Hi JA,
Indeed the Spirit of Christ did.
Jesus had not been born.
Hi Nick,Are you saying “The Spirit of Christ” is “The HolySpirit of His Father”(YHVH); is this what you have been trying to say?
1Cor.12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or
Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.1Cor.6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one Spirit.
Phil.1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ:
that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs,
that ye stand fast in one Spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;Eph:4:4: There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph.2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (John 16:7-16)God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjwhat is that “ONE SPIRIT”??
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,Holy!
Quote (Ed J @ June 24 2010,16:27) Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2010,16:01) Quote (Ed J @ June 24 2010,13:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2010,13:10) Hi JA,
Indeed the Spirit of Christ did.
Jesus had not been born.
Hi Nick,Are you saying “The Spirit of Christ” is “The HolySpirit of His Father”(YHVH); is this what you have been trying to say?
1Cor.12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or
Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.1Cor.6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one Spirit.
Phil.1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ:
that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs,
that ye stand fast in one Spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;Eph:4:4: There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph.2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (John 16:7-16)God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjwhat is that “ONE SPIRIT”??
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,Holy!
edjthats it
?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2010,16:16) Hi T,
Taste and see.
Analysis is not helpful.
nickmany repeat what is written without understanding ,how can they taste it??
some only see trough there own eyes,how can they see???
as they analyze what they read they only see there reflection not God,so how can it be helpful ??
Pierre
JA
Quote (JustAskin @ June 23 2010,17:40) WJ,
Isaiah 10:21… What does it REALLY say…“…to THE Mighty God”
WJ, Isaiah 9:6:
What does it REALLY say?
“His NAME shall be called…Mighty God”.
Correct, so do you call him YOUR “Mighty God” or do you play word games also.The word game goes like this…
“Jesus is a mighty God” but he is not my “mighty God”!
Quote (JustAskin @ June 23 2010,17:40) What is the difference between 'THE Mighty God' and someone 'called' 'Mighty God'.
There is none, i.e. “he is President of the USA” or “he is THE President of the USA”.You still haven’t addressed how not having the definite article makes any difference since there are thousands of times “God” is mentioned without the definite article yet it is the “One True God” spoken of. Where in scriptures are any other called “mighty God” ('el Gibbowr) other than YHWH and what obviously is Jesus? Was Isaiah a Polytheist?
Quote (JustAskin @ June 23 2010,17:40) WJ, you are a 'Mighty God', I called you, a 'Mighty God'…are you therefore , 'THE Mighty God'?
Lies, for I am not a “god” at all. If I was “mighty God” I would also be THE “ mighty God”, for there are no other gods.Quote (JustAskin @ June 23 2010,17:40) WJ, what is wrong with your comprehension?
I was kind of thinking the same thing!
Quote (JustAskin @ June 23 2010,17:40) I told you that you are being destroyed…please repent before it is too late.
You and Mike sure do like beating your chest a lot!
Quote (JustAskin @ June 23 2010,17:40) God's NAME is not 'Mighty God'.
Tell that to Isaiah who says that “mighty God” is a name, (Isa 9:6) and in the same breath ascribes the same name to YHWH (Isa 10:21).Quote (JustAskin @ June 23 2010,17:40) Jesus is NAMED, according, to Isaiah, 'Wonderful'.
Some translations render it “Wonderful Counselor”.So is Jesus your Wonderful Counselor?
Quote (JustAskin @ June 23 2010,17:40) Jesus' name, according to Isaiah, is 'Everlasting Father'
So is Jesus your “Everlasting Father”?Quote (JustAskin @ June 23 2010,17:40) Jesus' name, according to Isaiah, is 'Counselor'.
Jesus' name, according to Isaiah, is, 'Prince of Peace' (Why only 'Prince'?)
The Heb for “Prince” is “sar” which means; 1) prince, ruler, leader, chief, chieftain, official, captain.Jesus is the “Ruler of peace” as well as the “King” that sits in David’s throne.
So is he your “Prince of Peace”?
You forgot one. Jesus is also “named” “mighty God”.
So is he your “mighty God”?
Why do you avoid answering this? Does it make you uncomfortable to call Jesus your “mighty God”? He is your Lord and Master isn't he?
Quote (JustAskin @ June 23 2010,17:40) Jesus' name is also, 'Immanuel' ('God with us') and in case you decide to 'go off on one' ask yourself where the 'Gateway to Heaven' is, according to Jacob?(p.s. It's near an ancient town called 'Luz'!)
Again…Can you say Jesus is 'God with us”?
It seems to me that SCRIPTURALLY the Trinitarians are the only ones that have their confession right!
For we literally believe Jesus is all those things to us and do not just give him lip service!
WJ
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,04:38) The belief that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature. Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother? John Knox said this, “We can have the humanity of Christ without the preexistence and we can have the preexistence without the humanity. There is absolutely no way of having both.”
The Messiah, according to scripture was to be a descendant of David, of Abraham (Gal. 3:16), and the seed of the women (Gen. 3:15). Paul constantly thinks of Christ as the last Adam (man). If he existed as a person before his conception, in what sense is he – the real person – a human being and a descendant of David and Abraham?
What do other's think? If you believe Jesus existed prior to his birth, please give your scriptural understanding. As most of you know, I contend for the Son of God beginning his life – for the first time – at conception.
If Jesus is the Son, and words mean anything, a “son” is derived and dependent.
Well said. God has foreknowledge. That would include foreknowledge from before the creation. That would include foreknowledge of man's fall. Knowing this, God planned ahead. See Genesis 3:15. God didn't take a millenium to announce the coming savior. He knew already what the scriptures, the word, the logos would say… Either God has foreknowledge or not. Foreknowledge is not predestination. A husband knows his wife is pregnant, is it predestination if he and his wife prepare for the arrival of the child? Anyway, God had His son in mind in the beginning. God had the totality of the message of the scripture in mind in the beginning.Why do people say the words that they say? Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh. People say words that tell who they are. Their words are as much them as their actions are. God's words are as much God as God himself is. God's words, the scriptures, the logos are theolpnuestos, God breathed. They came from God. They are who God is. Of course, the logos, the message, that what God intended to communicate was with, was God.
When you live by the word of God, do people see who the Father is. Of course. When Jesus Christ lived perfectly by the word of God, people saw who the Father is perfectly. When you live by the words of God, you “flesh out” the truth of God's word. Ie, truth is lived, not just heard. As we do, become doers of the word, God is made known.
Any one who has ears to hear catches my drift, my logos.
Quote (barley @ June 25 2010,14:21) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,04:38) The belief that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature. Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother? John Knox said this, “We can have the humanity of Christ without the preexistence and we can have the preexistence without the humanity. There is absolutely no way of having both.”
The Messiah, according to scripture was to be a descendant of David, of Abraham (Gal. 3:16), and the seed of the women (Gen. 3:15). Paul constantly thinks of Christ as the last Adam (man). If he existed as a person before his conception, in what sense is he – the real person – a human being and a descendant of David and Abraham?
What do other's think? If you believe Jesus existed prior to his birth, please give your scriptural understanding. As most of you know, I contend for the Son of God beginning his life – for the first time – at conception.
If Jesus is the Son, and words mean anything, a “son” is derived and dependent.
Well said. God has foreknowledge. That would include foreknowledge from before the creation. That would include foreknowledge of man's fall. Knowing this, God planned ahead. See Genesis 3:15. God didn't take a millenium to announce the coming savior. He knew already what the scriptures, the word, the logos would say… Either God has foreknowledge or not. Foreknowledge is not predestination. A husband knows his wife is pregnant, is it predestination if he and his wife prepare for the arrival of the child? Anyway, God had His son in mind in the beginning. God had the totality of the message of the scripture in mind in the beginning.Why do people say the words that they say? Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh. People say words that tell who they are. Their words are as much them as their actions are. God's words are as much God as God himself is. God's words, the scriptures, the logos are theolpnuestos, God breathed. They came from God. They are who God is. Of course, the logos, the message, that what God intended to communicate was with, was God.
When you live by the word of God, do people see who the Father is. Of course. When Jesus Christ lived perfectly by the word of God, people saw who the Father is perfectly. When you live by the words of God, you “flesh out” the truth of God's word. Ie, truth is lived, not just heard. As we do, become doers of the word, God is made known.
Any one who has ears to hear catches my drift, my logos.
Absolutely correct.
I am impressed. I wish you would post more like that.Quote (barley @ June 25 2010,14:21) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,04:38) The belief that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature. Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother? John Knox said this, “We can have the humanity of Christ without the preexistence and we can have the preexistence without the humanity. There is absolutely no way of having both.”
The Messiah, according to scripture was to be a descendant of David, of Abraham (Gal. 3:16), and the seed of the women (Gen. 3:15). Paul constantly thinks of Christ as the last Adam (man). If he existed as a person before his conception, in what sense is he – the real person – a human being and a descendant of David and Abraham?
What do other's think? If you believe Jesus existed prior to his birth, please give your scriptural understanding. As most of you know, I contend for the Son of God beginning his life – for the first time – at conception.
If Jesus is the Son, and words mean anything, a “son” is derived and dependent.
Well said. God has foreknowledge. That would include foreknowledge from before the creation. That would include foreknowledge of man's fall. Knowing this, God planned ahead. See Genesis 3:15. God didn't take a millenium to announce the coming savior. He knew already what the scriptures, the word, the logos would say… Either God has foreknowledge or not. Foreknowledge is not predestination. A husband knows his wife is pregnant, is it predestination if he and his wife prepare for the arrival of the child? Anyway, God had His son in mind in the beginning. God had the totality of the message of the scripture in mind in the beginning.Why do people say the words that they say? Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh. People say words that tell who they are. Their words are as much them as their actions are. God's words are as much God as God himself is. God's words, the scriptures, the logos are theolpnuestos, God breathed. They came from God. They are who God is. Of course, the logos, the message, that what God intended to communicate was with, was God.
When you live by the word of God, do people see who the Father is. Of course. When Jesus Christ lived perfectly by the word of God, people saw who the Father is perfectly. When you live by the words of God, you “flesh out” the truth of God's word. Ie, truth is lived, not just heard. As we do, become doers of the word, God is made known.
Any one who has ears to hear catches my drift, my logos.
God's logos is a reflection or representation of who god is. Just as His plan embodies the character of the fulfillment of that plan.
Even though some like to play word games Isa 9:6 is very clear that Jesus was prophecied to have the character (name= Shem(heb) =Character) of the mighty God and not literally be the Mighty God.As you agreed Barley, A preexistent Christ raises all kinds of questions about the nature of Christ including his ability to be our example. We can never be certain of how he did anything. Was it a God or a man that did it. So we can never be certain if we can follow that particular example or not. Doesn't the Devil love doctrines that make a person doubt the gospel plan.
Why some people would insist on following their interpretation or an English translation over the general plan of God is a mystery to me.
Jesus never taught in such a way. He taught life and how to live it. He taught this by example. He taught how to walk with God and have the character of God as a human being. Otherwise what is the point?Quote (martian @ June 25 2010,09:25) As you agreed Barley, A preexistent Christ raises all kinds of questions about the nature of Christ including his ability to be our example. We can never be certain of how he did anything. Was it a God or a man that did it.
So then all we need is 4 Gospels to base our lives on by following Jesus when he was in the flesh?HMMM, I wonder what the early believers did before the NT was written or those who did not have a Bible?
Whatever happened to the Spirit of truth that would guide us and lead us into all truth?
Carnal religious people follow a mere man and not God!!!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2010,02:20) Quote (martian @ June 25 2010,09:25) As you agreed Barley, A preexistent Christ raises all kinds of questions about the nature of Christ including his ability to be our example. We can never be certain of how he did anything. Was it a God or a man that did it.
So then all we need is 4 Gospels to base our lives on by following Jesus when he was in the flesh?HMMM, I wonder what the early believers did before the NT was written or those who did not have a Bible?
Whatever happened to the Spirit of truth that would guide us and lead us into all truth?
Carnal religious people follow a mere man and not God!!!
WJ
So you would prefer to downgrade the gospels as to their use in teaching Christ as our example? Do you also downgrade that which is written in them concerning the death and resurrection of the Messiah?
Both his mission as the blood sacrifice and the example for humanity's walk with God are written in the gospels and throughout the Old and New Testament.And to follow the Spirit of truth one must have it AND listen to it.
The Spirit of Truth would never cause one to contradict the two fold mission of the Messiah or contradict that God is a Spirit (non-coporeal) being and not flesh and blood. Two things you have continued to do for some time.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2010,02:20) Quote (martian @ June 25 2010,09:25) As you agreed Barley, A preexistent Christ raises all kinds of questions about the nature of Christ including his ability to be our example. We can never be certain of how he did anything. Was it a God or a man that did it.
So then all we need is 4 Gospels to base our lives on by following Jesus when he was in the flesh?HMMM, I wonder what the early believers did before the NT was written or those who did not have a Bible?
Whatever happened to the Spirit of truth that would guide us and lead us into all truth?
Carnal religious people follow a mere man and not God!!!
WJ
Furthermore –
I was not speaking of the 4 Gospels but of the gospel plan of God. the good news that is written throughout the entire Bible. That Good news that was spread by word of mouth and the teaching of prophets and kings long before the book was ever written. (and in some places the good news is still passed in the same way.)TRUE CARNAL PEOPLE reject or downgrade Christ as our example because they are unwilling to pay the price to actually become like him in character and actions. The most dangerous and saddest of these are those that conjure up doctrines that preclude us from using Christ as our example. They would work against God and kill the plan of God to avoid dealing with their own selfish desires and traditions.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2010,02:20) Quote (martian @ June 25 2010,09:25) As you agreed Barley, A preexistent Christ raises all kinds of questions about the nature of Christ including his ability to be our example. We can never be certain of how he did anything. Was it a God or a man that did it.
So then all we need is 4 Gospels to base our lives on by following Jesus when he was in the flesh?HMMM, I wonder what the early believers did before the NT was written or those who did not have a Bible?
Whatever happened to the Spirit of truth that would guide us and lead us into all truth?
Carnal religious people follow a mere man and not God!!!
WJ
Real Christians follow the man that God appointed.
Real Christians follow the two fold mission of the Messiah as God ordained.
Real Christians do nothing that would degrade God's appointment or hinder his plan.Quote (martian @ June 25 2010,12:22) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2010,02:20) Quote (martian @ June 25 2010,09:25) As you agreed Barley, A preexistent Christ raises all kinds of questions about the nature of Christ including his ability to be our example. We can never be certain of how he did anything. Was it a God or a man that did it.
So then all we need is 4 Gospels to base our lives on by following Jesus when he was in the flesh?HMMM, I wonder what the early believers did before the NT was written or those who did not have a Bible?
Whatever happened to the Spirit of truth that would guide us and lead us into all truth?
Carnal religious people follow a mere man and not God!!!
WJ
So you would prefer to downgrade the gospels as to their use in teaching Christ as our example? Do you also downgrade that which is written in them concerning the death and resurrection of the Messiah?
Both his mission as the blood sacrifice and the example for humanity's walk with God are written in the gospels and throughout the Old and New Testament.And to follow the Spirit of truth one must have it AND listen to it.
The Spirit of Truth would never cause one to contradict the two fold mission of the Messiah or contradict that God is a Spirit (non-coporeal) being and not flesh and blood. Two things you have continued to do for some time.
Real believers know that Jesus is not a mere man of flesh and blood!Real believers know that Jesus lives in them by the Spirit of Christ which is the Spirit of God.
Real believers have examined themselves and have this confession.
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. “Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be REPROBATES? 2 Cor 13:5
Is Jesus in you, or are you reprobate?
Real believers know that it is not a mere man that dwells in them.
Real believers know that “reprobate” minds think that they can be like Jesus in every way.
Can a mere man dwell in every believer all over the world and hear their prayers and bear their burdens and be with them to the end of the world?
Who can do this but God?
Lets see you follow Jesus in this?
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2010,14:14) Hi WJ,
Can you do greater things than Jesus[Jn12]
What does that make you then?
NHNo I can't, can you?
Can you dwell in every believer all over the world and be with them to the end of the world?
Didn't think so.
So you can't do greater works than he can you?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2010,05:46) Quote (martian @ June 25 2010,12:22) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2010,02:20) Quote (martian @ June 25 2010,09:25) As you agreed Barley, A preexistent Christ raises all kinds of questions about the nature of Christ including his ability to be our example. We can never be certain of how he did anything. Was it a God or a man that did it.
So then all we need is 4 Gospels to base our lives on by following Jesus when he was in the flesh?HMMM, I wonder what the early believers did before the NT was written or those who did not have a Bible?
Whatever happened to the Spirit of truth that would guide us and lead us into all truth?
Carnal religious people follow a mere man and not God!!!
WJ
So you would prefer to downgrade the gospels as to their use in teaching Christ as our example? Do you also downgrade that which is written in them concerning the death and resurrection of the Messiah?
Both his mission as the blood sacrifice and the example for humanity's walk with God are written in the gospels and throughout the Old and New Testament.And to follow the Spirit of truth one must have it AND listen to it.
The Spirit of Truth would never cause one to contradict the two fold mission of the Messiah or contradict that God is a Spirit (non-coporeal) being and not flesh and blood. Two things you have continued to do for some time.
Real believers know that Jesus is not a mere man of flesh and blood!Real believers know that Jesus lives in them by the Spirit of Christ which is the Spirit of God.
Real believers have examined themselves and have this confession.
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. “Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be REPROBATES? 2 Cor 13:5
Is Jesus in you, or are you reprobate?
Real believers know that it is not a mere man that dwells in them.
Real believers know that “reprobate” minds think that they can be like Jesus in every way.
Can a mere man dwell in every believer all over the world and hear their prayers and bear their burdens and be with them to the end of the world?
Who can do this but God?
Lets see you follow Jesus in this?
WJ
Again a silly answer. Of course we cannot be in all believers at the same time, but you are talking about things that Christ does after his resurrection. I am speaking of him as our example before his ascension into heaven. We will never have the position of the Messiah. there is only one. But parts of his mission, the example of how to walk with God as a son of God, we are commanded to follow.
there are specific things that Christ can do after his resurrection that he could not do before. This has little to do with him as our example.Let’s look at a few scriptural truths about Jesus.
Jesus is the first to fulfill God’s plan. (I Cor 15/20,23)
Jesus is God’s only begotten son. (Luke 2/1-7)
Jesus came in His Father's name (John 8/43)
Jesus is a descendent of David. (Matt Chapter 1 and Mark 10/47)
Jesus has step siblings (Matt 13/55-56)
Jesus is the son of Man (John 8/29)
Jesus has a human soul (Matt 26/38)
Jesus has a human spirit (luke 23/46)
Jesus has a human will (John 5/30 and Matt 26/39)
Jesus has a human body (Mark 15/43)
Jesus sleeps (Mark 4/38)
Jesus cries (John 11/35)
Jesus Prays (Luke 6/12, 18/20)
Jesus is the son of God (Luke 9/35)
Jesus is Lord = master in authority (John 13/13)
Jesus is the teacher (John 13/13)
Jesus is the second Adam(I Cor 15/45)
Jesus is a prophet and speaks prophetically from His Father Yahweh. (John 8/40)
Jesus was filled with the Spirit/Godhead/authority (Col 2/9)
Jesus is the Messiah (John 1/41and John 4/25&26)
Jesus lives a sinless life.(II Cor 5/21)
Jesus is a made just like his brothers. (Hebrews 2/16 and 17)
There is one mediator between God (Yahweh) and Man (humanity) The man Christ Jesus. (I Tim 2/5)
Jesus is the word (Logos= expression, idea, statement of God) (John 1/1)
Jesus is our brother (Matthew 12:50 , Hebrews 2:11)
Jesus is our example (1 Peter 2:21 and 1 John 2:6 )
Jesus is the source of true felowship (1 John 1:3 )
Jesus is compassionate (Mark 8:2-3 and Matt 20:34)
Jesus is in submission to God (Yahweh) (I Cor 15/25-28)
Jesus' source of Life is Yahweh (John 5/26)
Jesus willingly went to the cross. ( Mark 10/45 and John 10:17-18)
Jesus dies. ( Mark 15/37 and 44,45)
Jesus was raised from the dead by God (Yahweh) ( I Cor 6/14)
God (Yahweh) gave Jesus authority over all mankind. (Matt 28/13)
Jesus is King of heaven and earth untill all His enemies are under His feet. ( I Cor 15/25)
Jesus puts himself and humanity under subjection to the Father. ( I Cor 15/25 through 28)
Jesus is made judge over the living and the dead by Yahweh. (John 5/27)In Luke 2: 41-52 we see the story of Jesus confounding the temple preasts at 12 years old. Several things are clear in this passage. (41 – 42) Jesus was raised in, and followed the Hebrew Customs of the time.
(42 – 50) Jesus had an agenda that went beyond his earthly parentage of Mary or the teaching of Joseph. He was being raised by his real father Yahweh. For this reason he not only astonished the teachers in the Temple but was there to also learn in that he asked questions of them.
When confronted by Mary and Joseph about his absence he states what was obvious to Him. He had to be in His Father’s house! Even they were perplexed by this, but Mary, understanding His herritage hid these things in her heart.
(52) Jesus grew and increased in wisdom and in favor with God and man. He grew up like any normal boy except for the fact that his father (Yahweh) was his father and teacher.
Jesus was an earthly son with a heavenly father. Even the word “begotten” means began. Jesus had a beginning upon his conception in the womb.Did Jesus need parenting and teaching from God? Was He not perfect through all eternity from the beginning?
Hebrews 2: 9 – 11
See several points in these verses –
Jesus was made a little lower then the Angels.
Jesus was crowned with Glory and honor because of the “suffering of death”.
It was fitting for Jesus to bring many to salvation because he was perfected by what he suffered. (11) In this verse scripture shows very clearly those that are sanctified (us) and He who sanctifies (Jesus) are all from one Father and therefore Jesus calls them Brethren. This verse ties it all together as Jesus being Human but begotten by Yahweh and us being of complete human parentage and adopted as heirs and joint heirs wit
h Jesus.Hebrews 5:8 and 9 In the Greek there is no period between verses 8 and 9
“Even though Jesus was a son, He learned obediance from the things which he suffered and being made perfect he became the source of all salvation.
Jesus the man learned obediance and was perfected by the things which He suffered. For this reason he was made the source of all salvation.”Consider this also —
Mark 12: 1 thru 9
God plants a vineyard, Israel. He builds a wall of protection around it from the rest of the world. He places vine growers to tend it, the Pharasees and teachers. When time comes for harvest from his land he sends prophets of earthly heritage who are killed. Over and over He sends them and they are ignored and driven out. Finally God sends His own begotten son saying surely they will respect and listen to my own son. The pharasees kill His son.
What will God do? He will destroy the vine growers and put new ones in charge.God had to send His own son to the nation of Israel and it’s leaders. The Isralies might be able to justify the killing of the prophets who showed human weakness and failings, but there could be no excuse for killing God’s own begotten son who showed the perfect revealing of God’s nature to them. Yahweh, being a God of justice now had every right to uterly destroy Israel and it’s leaders. God now had every right to turn to the gentiles to harvest His world.
Look up perfect or perfection and perfected in a concordance. You will find scores of scriptures that state man is to be perfected. Most are even commandments! Does God command us to do something He knows we cannot do? Obviously not. So, how can it be done?
Here’s how —
Jesus is begotten by God and born a complete human being and from his birth is fathered by God. He is perfected by His life unto complete obediance even unto death. Because of His obediance and sacrifice in love He is exalted and raised from the dead and at that time, sat upon the thrown of all the creation. He is given all power in heaven and earth.The result of what Christ did? —–
We as full human beings have opportunity to START AGAIN and be fathered by God. We have a perfect pattern and example to follow in the human being, Jesus Christ. He is the “way”. We are imputed righteousness by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. When we fail we have a mediator that completely understands our plight and works on our behalf. Our sins are forgiven, giving us complete access to the same process of perfection which Jesus followed. We are filled with the same Holy Spirit (the Spirit of God) as Jesus to empower us to overcome. We are children of Yahweh and joint heirs with Jesus. He is our brother.
Yahweh is called the Father. Like all good Fathers, he focusses on fathering. Raising, equiping, forgiving, teaching, and rewarding are His focus. He wants mature children that grow to become like Him in nature and action. He looks upon His other children in the same way He looks upon Jesus.
Catholic doctrine and many others including Calvinism teach that man is totally depraved. They teach it so well that many balk at the idea that man can ever be perfected, even though scripture teaches us otherwise. Even though Jesus is the patern and example. Even though all things are possible with God. Even though he who began a good work will complete it, we still say, “yeah but”. Many use the excuse that we will be perfected once we get to heaven. This is included in Calvinism’s concept of once saved always saved. We do not need to work with God toward perfection because God will do it all and we have no part in it. Are your children active participants in their growing up and maturing or do they just lay there and let you do everything?
Some use this aproach to mask a desire to justify and excuse continued sin. We become so used to the abnormal behaviour of sinfull man that we see Jesus as super normal or supernatural to avoid the conclussion that all men should be likewise.
Some come to a complacent state of justification and say, “Well, we are all human and this is normal.” It is not that we have a fallen nature, it is that we choose to stay in a constant state of falling. We continue to justify and excuse our behaviour, saying we can never really overcome like Jesus. This is certainly not the teaching of Christ!
Some say the death of a mere human on the cross is not big enough for the sins of the world. Firstly it is God who decides that! Second – If you had a son that somehow was really perfect in every way, how much worth would you put in him? I am sure the Father feels the same way about His son.
The most important questions on teaching always must be, “Does this teaching draw me closer to Jesus or farther away?” “Does this teaching enable me to become like Jesus or hinder me from that goal. By degrading man and elevating Jesus to a super-human status, there becomes an unavoidable difference, seperation, and gulf between them. These concepts work completely against man’s calling and goal of becoming like Christ.Yahweh’s focus is not on sin. There is no condemnation in Christ. Many of these doctrines focus so much on forgivness that They forget there is more beyond the cross. There is the resurection into new life. A life of growth in God. A life of being perfected by walking with God. A life of becoming like our brother Jesus. A life of being Fathered by Yahweh. Repentance is not just about getting forgiven, but about turning from our faults and overcoming. If that is not a perfect example of the perfecting process then I do not know what is.
Is God soveriegn as the Calvinist teach? Of course and if an almighty God, so is His creation of superior making and calling. There is a very subtle trap of Satan included in some doctrines. Under the guise of exalting God to a high position these doctrines fall into the trap of degrading His most precious creation. Satan knows he cannot destroy God, so he works to destroy the apple of God’s eye, His children. Satan knows that the more perfect man becomes the more danger to him and the shortening of his time on earth. Look at the damage done to Satan by one perfected man. What happens when there are millions walking the earth in the same relationship with God? Then you will see the great end time revival. Then you will see the true gospel preached in all the earth. Then you will see the perfect man of Ephesians. Then you will see us all speak the same thing because we have the same Father and teacher.
Quote (martian @ June 25 2010,15:32) Again a silly answer. Of course we cannot be in all believers at the same time, but you are talking about things that Christ does after his resurrection. I am speaking of him as our example before his ascension into heaven.
See thats what I mean. You are serving Jesus based on just the 4 Gospels.I am serving a resurrected Jesus who lives in me by his Spirit and a Jesus who brings to life the scriptures.
Will you ever be like Jesus in every way?
Its a simple yes or no answer.
Why do you have to muddy the water all the time with a million word post full of ad hominems and oppologetics?
It is simple, Jesus is not a mere man like us in every way and if he was then we are serving a mere man and seeking to be like a mere man rather than God which would be idolatry!
WJ
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