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Quote (JustAskin @ June 19 2010,17:23) WJ Everyday you make yourself more of a jester with your colourful clothing and hats of lies.
You know full well that 'Mighty God' and 'The Mighty God' are two completely different things.
All your trinity proofs have fallen around your ears and so now you doing your refresher and using dodger methods.
WJ, if you need to do that then you have lost it.
Mind you, you never HAD it, so I supposed you had nothing to lose in the first place.
You deliberately added the definite article to try to fool naive readers. But you knew exactly why you did it, and that was not to prove God's word but to confuse it.
WJ, what dies Scriptures say about 'adding or taking away a word from God's word'.
WJ, do you not fear God? Obviously not…even Satan fears God, and he is a Mighty God!
HMMM.I didn't think you would address the points.
BTW JA the translators put the definite article there, and if you know anything about translating Greek, you know that is not an unusual practice to make sense of a verse!
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 20 2010,08:47) Quote (Arnold @ June 20 2010,07:56) W.J. for once I agree with you tht Jesus is the Mighty God, but our Heavenly Father is Jehovah God, the Almighty God. There is a difference to me and not a trinity like you believe. Also he did not always exsisted. He was the firstborn of all creation in Rev. 3:14 and in Col. 1:15…..Irene
Irene, if there's a difference between “Mighty God” and “Almighty God” then why is YHWH called “Mighty God” in Isaiah 10:21 and other passages?Why would that be Irene?
Because our Heavenly Father is greater then all. John 14:28 and in Ephesians 4:6 it says that He is above all….About Isaiah I don;t know, because also in Isaiah 10: 16 it says Lord and in verse 12 it is LORD. One Lord is Jesus and LORD is Jehovah God the Almighty God. What I think that the Translator got it mixed up, otherwise it makes no sense…Scriptures usally does not contradict itself….you say and other passages. Show me….. I do not go by a man's word …..IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2010,06:13) t8 Good, then when Isaiah the prophet calls Jesus the “Mighty God” (El Gabor) then you believe that he is “The Mighty God” don't you?
So again, is he your “Mighty God” or will you continue with your selective process of interpreting the scriptures?
WJ
Yeah no problem with that.God is the one true God and he sent Jesus.
How does this following truth agree with the above truth?
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”'First off, we know that this is Jesus and we both agree that he is not the Father, so we have to assume that Mighty God is not necessarily the Almighty God either.
The word Father that is used here is “Ab” and this word is the same word that is used when describing Abraham as our Father and this scripture is just a reference to say that Jesus is our Everlasting Father, in other words he is greater than Abraham, but it certainly doesn't say 'Heavenly Father'.
Now for the second point which is your focus.
Jesus is called “Mighty God”. The word in the Hebrew used here is “El” and this word means the following:
1) god, godlike one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power“So Jesus is the Mighty El and this can be interpreted to mean that Jesus is the 'Mighty God Like One' or 'mighty in strength and power' and this is consistent with the overwhelming amount of scriptures that clearly teach that there is one God the Father. This interpretation is also in total agreement with the fact that, Jesus is the Image of God, and it must also be stressed that Isaiah 9:6 doesn't say “Almighty God”. (The term Almighty means that there is no one mightier, yet we both know that the Father is mightier than all). The term “Mighty God” in Hebrew is ´El Gib·bohr´ and the term “God Almighty” is translated from the Hebrew words 'El Shad·dai' which applies uniquely to YHWH.
When a man believes that there is one God the Father as Paul did, then he is not confused about the one God and who Jesus is.
Quote (t8 @ June 20 2010,12:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2010,06:13) t8 Good, then when Isaiah the prophet calls Jesus the “Mighty God” (El Gabor) then you believe that he is “The Mighty God” don't you?
So again, is he your “Mighty God” or will you continue with your selective process of interpreting the scriptures?
WJ
Yeah no problem with that.God is the one true God and he sent Jesus.
How does this following truth agree with the above truth?
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”'First off, we know that this is Jesus and we both agree that he is not the Father, so we have to assume that Mighty God is not necessarily the Almighty God either.
The word Father that is used here is “Ab” and this word is the same word that is used when describing Abraham as our Father and this scripture is just a reference to say that Jesus is our Everlasting Father, in other words he is greater than Abraham, but it certainly doesn't say 'Heavenly Father'.
Now for the second point which is your focus.
Jesus is called “Mighty God”. The word in the Hebrew used here is “El” and this word means the following:
1) god, godlike one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power“So Jesus is the Mighty El and this can be interpreted to mean that Jesus is the 'Mighty God Like One' or 'mighty in strength and power' and this is consistent with the overwhelming amount of scriptures that clearly teach that there is one God the Father. This interpretation is also in total agreement with the fact that, Jesus is the Image of God, and it must also be stressed that Isaiah 9:6 doesn't say “Almighty God”. (The term Almighty means that there is no one mightier, yet we both know that the Father is mightier than all). The term “Mighty God” in Hebrew is ´El Gib·bohr´ and the term “God Almighty” is translated from the Hebrew words 'El Shad·dai' which applies uniquely to YHWH.
When a man believes that there is one God the Father as Paul did, then he is not confused about the one God and who Jesus is.
The word “name” in the Hebrew language is shem and means character or reputation. Now try reading that verse with those words.It is a messianic prophecy about the character of Christ not his identity.
This is a general comment and not in response to any particular post.
What I find most discouraging from my years on these forums is the total lack of understanding or adherence to God’s purposes or plan.
Most are only concerned with proving their particular doctrine by whatever means possible. Some are more honest then others but very few if any think about what their “doctrines” actually do for the saint and most don’t care. They are caught in the post Constantine philosophical notion of head knowledge Christianity. Ask most who are the church fathers they like and 99% will call upon the philosophers of the third century on. Of course none will admit that it was these very church fathers that led the church down the rabbit hole of creeds and doctrines and away from personal relationship with God in every situation. God is not static that one set of primary rules can fully express his heart and intentions and he certainly is not interested in us attaining more head data if it does not lead to a working gospel that actually changes lives.
God said he would write the laws on our hearts and not on tablets. Here we debate the aspects of the tablets without taking much notice of what is written on the heart.WE ignore the very purposes for our creation in favor of a philosophy that we can defend or prove from the tablets. There is no intrinsic value in truth unless one has the character to implement it and make it work. Work??? Yes Work. How does the truth that we so vehemently defend actually help us live?
Jesus did not teach doctrine. He taught life immersed in the character and personal knowledge of God’s heart and purposes. He taught a way to live and not a way to prove doctrine. Jesus taught the relationship between the creator and the human creation. He taught relationship between the Father and the human son. There are doctrines/philosophies that teach other things or at least detract from these basic purposes of God and the more they differ the less true value they have to God or man.
Twenty years ago when I first began asking Trinitarians what purpose their doctrine served or what function it had they could not answer. In the last few years they have made things up like “Oh it shows us the perfect union so that we know how to be unified.” When I ask how that helps me they come up with something else until they finally call me a heretic or tell me it is a divine mystery.
Is there any example in there for me? No, of course not, However a human Christ shows me the perfect cooperation between God and Man. It shows me the perfect relationship between Father and Son. A son LIKE ME so I can relate,
The same holds true for the preexistent Christ. What purpose would it serve the plan of God to send us an example to follow that is not like us? How can we ever relate except by speculation and guesswork. It’s almost as if they make God out as a being wanting to give us doubt and leave loopholes for the devil to exploit.
God is fluid in that he works within every decision man makes. According to our decisions he makes a way for us to grow in him. When man fell he set in motion a plan to redeem us back to the position we lost in his creation. That plan centered around a Messiah with a two fold mission.
1.To have a Messiah as His representative to his lost children. This Messiah would grow into perfection in the same manner as had been intended for humanity from the start. He would be in perfect harmony with his creator’s intentions and plan. This Messiah would teach by example how to walk with God in perfect harmony. The Messiah taught with authority because as he taught he was in communion with the purposes and character of God.
2.This perfected man would be tested over and over in every way possible.
— God will be just even within his own council. A perfect blood sacrifice must be made to open the door for redemption. A covenant must be ratified by the shedding of Blood. —-
Jesus was tested even unto death. He did not want to die. God required it of him. The test was whether Jesus would use the power he never gave up due to the fall to save himself or would he trust God to the death. He could have called 12 legions of angels to save himself but instead he did what his father required.No accuser of the brethren can ever say again that no MAN can live as a true son of God. Christ did it and made it possible for us to follow. No accuser can say that every man would defend himself in opposition to God’s will.
Stand on Mars Hill all you want and debate philosophy, but if your end conclusions make Christ something less then the man required by God’s plan then you waste the time of all around you. God appointed a mortal man born of a woman, in the line of David to fulfill the role of the Messiah. Anything less then a normal man and you diminish his ability to accomplish that role.
God appointed a man with God dwelling in him to show how to be men with God dwelling in us. We are to be filled with the breath (spirit) of God so that His character, wisdom and heart are written upon our hearts. (NOT OUR HEADS)
Show me how your doctrine imprints the character of God in my heart or go teach a philosophy class.
I am tired of hearing over and over again how important it is to teach the word. What most are teaching is the dead letter. Their teachings do not produce life more abundant in God. They do not produce hope in God’s promises. They do not give us a clear example to follow or relate to. Thy do not give us an example of the proper relationship between God and his human creation/sons. They do not teach us that even as Jesus is we can be also. That is the saddest part because that is the plan of God in a nutshell. Everything that God has done in the past and will do in the future is to make us like Christ. To build within us the same relationship he had with Christ.
As Jesus himself said speaking to his father, “Even as you and I are one, make them one with us.”
There is the plan. Does your teaching fit in it?PS I really do not expect many on here to get this. What I expect is to have scripture thrown at me and idle philosophy spewed out like the dog’s vomit. I hope that I am wrong but my experience tells me such.
Martian, I do get that, good post. I dont know about the pre-existance of Jesus, or any of those details though. But people can be more focused on worshipping Jesus rather than being like Jesus.
Quote (karmarie @ June 21 2010,10:01) Martian, I do get that, good post. I dont know about the pre-existance of Jesus, or any of those details though. But people can be more focused on worshipping Jesus rather than being like Jesus.
My point was not exactly the worshipping Jesus is bad because the definition of worship is to bow in submission before our master, which Jesus is as appointed by God himself.
However seeking intelectual knowledge about God rather then personal intimate relationship with the person of God is wrong.Tell me if you can what purpose a preexistent Christ has in the mission of the Messiah? What is the fruit of such a belief?
The only fruit I can see is to bring doubt on christ as our example. With a preexistent Christ there will always be questions as to how much his preexistence effected his walk with his father. How can we truly become like christ if he accomplished any portion of is work because of a prior life. We do not have a prior life and cannot follow Christ in that way.
Would God have us waste out time trying to do something we cannot do because of the handicap of no prior life? Would God (who wants very much for us to succeed) create such huge loopholes that foster doubts in his plan? Does this seem reasonable for the wisest being in the universe?
–or–
Does it seem more likely that God would devise a plan in which the devil cannot foster legitimate doubts about our example. I think his plan would be so simple and complete that any simpleton could follow it and that a person would have to harden their heart or choose deception to avoid it.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 20 2010,00:36) JA and T8……….I agree with Adam on this brothers , You both deny that Jesus was GOD, and we all agree with that , However you still give him a divine advantage, you still believe He was (NOT) simply a Man as all men are. You both believe He was the word spoken of in John 1:1, and if you do then Adam is right you still are polytheist, because it plainly say the word (was) GOD. You still move His identity away from our (EXACTNESS), it like you both are (PART) way out of the false teachings of the Trinity but not completely out yet. You both need to remember It was the Trinitarians that gave Jesus his “preexistence” status more then anyone else. By changing the menacing of what John was saying, The word was not Jesus at all, it was GOD Himself , just as you words are you yourself, so it is with GOD. John know full well how to spell Jesus name, and if he wanted to mean Jesus he simply would have written it their. IMO peace and love to you both…………………….gene
Thanks for such agreement brother Gene. I hope others also will see the truth in your words.Love and peace to you
AdamHi Martian, I agree with you that seeking a personal relationship with God is what is important and more important than seeking knowledge about God. Things are revealed the closer we become with God without the need to always read everything or search elsewhere.
The pre-existance of Jesus however is not something we can know for sure, the Bible does say The Word was with God in the beginning, then the Word became flesh. Jesus said “Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.
So if The Word was a Spiritual being alongside God the Father, and the World was created through Him, we shouldnt assume that this wasnt true without knowing for sure. Because its taking away what The pre-existant Word (In the flesh Jesus) created which we are a part of.
So I would rather assume what the Bible says is correct. It seems The Word was with God and was part of God as a Spirit being, then the Word was made flesh, in the man Jesus.
If the Word was Gods spoken word and thought, where is the proof of that? It doesnt make sense with how The Word (as you say a part of God, Gods mind word thought) manifested in Jesus spoke to God the Father, its like a Trinitarian saying Jesus as God was talking to himself, somehow.
Jesus being pre-existant doesnt make anything harder or give him any advantage at all. He is Lord and master, and an example for us. He came to give us life through death. So theres alot more to it than just that.
But what is important? Romans 10:9
“If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”Quote (karmarie @ June 21 2010,19:01) its like a Trinitarian saying Jesus as God was talking to himself, somehow.
That's not what trinitarians believe at all Karmarie. You're confusing trinitarianism with modalism.Hi Is, Ha ok, so what exactly does a Trinitarian believe? Because I cant understand any explanation of it.
I could understand there being three, those three being as one yes,
But when a Trinitarian says God became flesh, is it God the Father became flesh or God as the Son became flesh?Good question. Trinitarians believe that YHWH exists as eternally as three distinct persons – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three person within one divine being/substance (Gr. hypostasis). Modalism hold That YHWH is unipersonal, but puts one different masks (i.e manisfestations) at different times.
Here's a good reference for you, quite long but worth reading if you want to understand the difference between the two:
http://vintage.aomin.org/CHALC.htmlThanks Is, i'll read that. But who do Trinitarians believe Jehovah is? Do they believe Jehovah in the old Testemant was Jesus in the New, but in both, worked under God the Father? Or that Jehovah is the Father, If that makes sense?
I won't speak for all trinitarians, but I personally hold that YHWH is the name of the triune God, so The Father, Son and Spirit are YHWH. Yeshua is unmistakably ascribed the name in Zechariah 14, for instance.
I wrote this document about it a few years ago. It explains the scriptural underpinnings of my view. Let me know by PM if you want to know more and I can send it to you.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 21 2010,19:38) Good question. Trinitarians believe that YHWH exists as eternally as three distinct persons – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three person within one divine being/substance (Gr. hypostasis). Modalism hold That YHWH is unipersonal, but puts one different masks (i.e manisfestations) at different times. Here's a good reference for you, quite long but worth reading if you want to understand the difference between the two:
http://vintage.aomin.org/CHALC.html
Yes 3 persons one God, yet how do you justify calling God “Him” and “He”. Your doctrine demands that God is “They” and “Them”. It is deceptive to say “He” while referring to a 3 person God.e.g., A man and a woman are said to be one flesh. Yet who would refer to both a husband and wife as a “he”. No, because there are 2 people, you refer to one as he, one as she, and both as “they” or “them”.
The reason why Tinitarians do not use correct English is because their wording in describing God would blatantly conflict with that which is written. So the way to fix this is to say that God is a trinity of persons, and yet is He and then expect to hear something like, “God is beyond our understanding” when you ask them to explain that.
But we reply with scripture. Scripure is a type of revelation that is meant to be understood. It reveals much about God and it refers to God as a HE, God is one, and God is the Father. It is simple when you stick to scripture and do not stray into doctrines of men. But it is written that God will make those who pride themselves as wise, to become fools. That even God's foolishness is greater than all the wisdom of man.
Quote (t8 @ June 21 2010,15:56) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 21 2010,19:38) Good question. Trinitarians believe that YHWH exists as eternally as three distinct persons – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three person within one divine being/substance (Gr. hypostasis). Modalism hold That YHWH is unipersonal, but puts one different masks (i.e manisfestations) at different times. Here's a good reference for you, quite long but worth reading if you want to understand the difference between the two:
http://vintage.aomin.org/CHALC.html
Yes 3 persons one God, yet how do you justify calling God “Him” and “He”. Your doctrine demands that God is “They” and “Them”. It is deceptive to say “He” while referring to a 3 person God.e.g., A man and a woman are said to be one flesh. Yet who would refer to both a husband and wife as a “he”. No, because there are 2 people, you refer to one as he, one as she, and both as “they” or “them”.
The reason why Tinitarians do not use correct English is because their wording in describing God would blatantly conflict with that which is written. So the way to fix this is to say that God is a trinity of persons, and yet is He and then expect to hear something like, “God is beyond our understanding” when you ask them to explain that.
But we reply with scripture. Scripure is a type of revelation that is meant to be understood. It reveals much about God and it refers to God as a HE, God is one, and God is the Father. It is simple when you stick to scripture and do not stray into doctrines of men. But it is written that God will make those who pride themselves as wise, to become fools. That even God's foolishness is greater than all the wisdom of man.
T8,So how do you explain when God say in “Our Image”
Yet Christ according to Philipians 2 was made in the “Likeness of man” but not the very image of man, just like Man was in the likeness of God.
Yet Christ is the image of the invisble God.Yet Christ on the right hand side of the omnipresent God…..
Yet Christ created the world according to Collassions,
Christ did nothing but what the father willed,
so he made no seperate choice,
and the only difference between Christ and the Father, is the physical limitation, but not by personality.I heard once upon a time before i became a member, that You wrote a post, that said something about how God particpated within Time, space, and matter threw Jesus, and that Jesus is Gods will in particpating within this world.
is that correct? or how did you say it?
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