Preexistence

[Arnold]

Quote (martian @ June 20 2010,02:58)

WJ, After three years of debate with you I have only a few more things to say. Your method of interpretation is so corrupt that it buggers the imagination. A few days ago we debated the merits of Acts 20:28 and you agreed that the interpretation could go your or my way and yet just a few posts later you are listing it as definitive proof. You did the same thing with Psalms 49. This is so dishonest as to not even warrant discussion. Your methods are more like a shyster used car dealer then a teacher of God’s word. The most damaging aspect of your whole diatribe are the results of your conclusions. You once said of me that I was rejecting the traditional teaching of the church and yet here you are trying to prove that God has a physical body and blood. The belief that YHWH is a spirit without a corporeal body is one of the basic beliefs of the Judeo Christian world. This has nothing to do with how powerful God is. A being’s power will not be exercised on it’s own. It must be exercised on the basis of decisions made within the character of that being. God’s character is absolute and unchanging, therefore his power could NEVER be exercised to usurp or change his own nature or character. He could never exist or recreate himself with character of less moral purity then himself. He cannot be tempted (which requires the ability to give into temptation) in all ways like mankind. Secondly – You doctrine undermines the very hope that the mission of Christ was to foster. Christ as a God infects the perfect example for humanity with great gaps of doubt. Your doctrine puts the question there for Satan to exploit in the minds of the saints. “Did Christ do the things he accomplished through his humanity or through his deity?” What part of Christ are we supposed to follow in like manner? Is there a secret guide in scripture that says Christ did this as a man and this as a God? Not to mention that a preexistent Christ opens all kinds of questions. What happened to all the experiences and memories of the pre-incarnate Christ? Did his brain get whipped in some sort of sci-fi brain meld? Is God a Vulcan? In fact if Jesus is God and that gave him clear advantage over us in what he accomplished on Earth then how are we supposed to be like him? I know you will come up with some mystical excuse from Phil 4 or the like to say that God gave up his divinity, but that causes another great contradiction with the basic tenants of Christianity. Can God stop being God? The unchagability of the moral character and “physical” attributes of God are a cornerstone of the Christian faith.  Christ was tempted in all ways like other men.  To be tempted there must be the possibility to sin. Otherwise there is no temptation. To be tempted one must be capable of making a decision between right and wrong. God’s moral character will not allow him to make that choice. There can be no temptation for God and no possibility to sin. If Christ is God then all the scriptures that claim Christ was tempted are lies. Again if Christ is not tempted like other men then how are we to draw hope that we can also overcome temptation and sin? I can hear the devil whispering in the ears of man now. “You can’t really over come this problem. After all Christ had to be a God to do it.” The same is true for the greatest hope of all, the resurrection. Satan would say “When has a man ever been resurrected? The example of Christ is no example because he is a God.” Is Christ called the Savior? Sure, what’s your point?  Christ worked with God for the salvation of mankind. The ability to do the savior’s work was given Christ with the mantle of messiah. The power to save souls came from YHWH and was administered by Christ as part of his mission. This also fits in the exact way in which the Hebrews thought. A human acting or functioning as a savior was called such. Such were all the men of the OT that acted as saviors to the people of Israel. Your doctrines dismantle the very rocks and foundations that the Christian hopes are based upon. Doctrine has one purpose and it is not to give us points of intellectual debate. It is to be a help in furthering our progress in our journey with God. Teaching should function and do something to help us become more like Christ and complete God’s plan for us. Teaching should not make Christ more of an enigma or lessen his example for us. Doctrine should never bring into doubt the moral character of God. Your arrogance shows through clearly in your belief that it takes a God to die for your sins. Firstly it is up to God and not you what he will accept as a proper blood sacrifice. Secondly from a love aspect it was much harder for God to sacrifice his only begotten son then it would be to sacrifice himself. (As if God could sacrifice himself) This was the perfect son. The one he started out to create in the first place with Adam. A son that always did what pleased his father and did what his father asked. This son was the perfect sacrifice and the perfect example. He was not some mystical dual-natured God/man or deity that we cannot relate to. He is a human being that completed the plan of God for all humanity. He purchased us back by supplying the ransom that God would accept. It makes no difference what you think you can prove from scripture. There are certain non-changing truths taught from scripture that are absolutely necessary beliefs for a person to be called Christian. Among them are the absolute moral character of God, Christ as our example, Christ as fulfilling the mantle of Messiah with the help of His father and the death, resurrection and eternal life of Christ as the first and greatest hope for mankind. Certainly there are scripture that would seem to go against these basic truths, however that does not diminish their truth, it only means we do not yet know the real meaning of these verses. I have an many occasions shown that deeper study of these verses often prove them to follow these basic truths. Your doctrines undermine and bring doubt upon all of these basic truths. Teach them if your want but stop calling them Christian doctrines because they are absolutely not of God. I heard someone on here say you were claiming pastor status? Is that true? Then I should get off here and begin praying for the unlucky souls that you will teach. They will need much deprogramming to really walk with God. Shame on you WJ for continuing to stubbornly promote doctrines that diminish the moral fiber of YHWH and destroys hope in the hearts of Christians.

Martian I was just written about what you said about Jesus Christ.  Why do you think that believing that Jesus existed before the world was, takes away from being like us.  In Phil. 2:5 He emptied Himself and became like a Servant.  So He could be like us.  Except His mind He knew where He came from.  I believe that God had to send someone like Him in order to save mankind.  All other Human beings had failed the test…. Only Jesus did not.  Why???Because He knew what was at stake if He did sin…..You also cant put the trinity along with that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.  Because they believe that Jesus always existed which I don;t and neither does t8.  I share some of His theology…
I do not believe in a trinity…..But by Scriptures I do believe that Jesus did preexist His birth on earth….
Let me just put these Scriptures down for you and if I were you I would study these first before answering me….
John 1:1 and verse 14
Rev. 19:13 and verse 16
John 1:15
John 6:38-40
Col 1:15-17
Also verse 18 tells us that He was the firstborn of the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.  Meaning He was first in all….
Since John was Jesus Broth
er He knew Jesus better then anyone else in His time… therefore more in
John 8:58
3:17
This is why I believe that Jesus was the first in all…… He also is called God not only in John 1:1 also in Hebrew 1:8
He is the Mighty God and Lord and Jehovah God is the Almighty God and LORD LORD always in capital letters…. see the difference…
Peace and Love Irene

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ June 20 2010,04:14)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 20 2010,00:36) JA and T8……….I agree with Adam on this brothers , You both deny that Jesus was GOD, and we all agree with that , However you still give him a divine advantage, you still believe He was (NOT) simply a Man as all men are. You both believe He was the word spoken of in John 1:1, and if you do then Adam is right you still are polytheist, because it plainly say the word (was) GOD.  You still move His identity away from our (EXACTNESS), it like you both are (PART) way out of the false teachings of the Trinity but not completely out yet. You both need to remember It was the Trinitarians that gave Jesus his “preexistence” status more then anyone else.  By changing the menacing of what John was saying, The word was not Jesus at all, it was GOD Himself , just as you words are you yourself, so it is with GOD. John know full well how to spell Jesus name, and if he wanted to mean Jesus he simply would have written it their. IMO peace and love to you both…………………….gene Gene!  I just finished a post to you on the same problem you have to believe that Jesus was with His Father before He became a man on earth.  Yet Scriptures do say so.  You have even denied Jesus own words in John 17:5 and other Scriptures like where it says that He was the firstborn of all creation in Co. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 and more.  Yet no you tend to just do your own thing….You call others by names that believe otherwise…. not to smart.   You and Adam need to learn from Scriptures…..Irene

So you believe that Jesus existed with God as a conscious viable being.
Did he have experiances and memories from that period? If so what happened to those things upon his birth to Mary.
Did his prior life impact anything that he did on Earth? If so that would impact his ability to be the perfect example to us.
As I said to WJ, I can hear the devil whispering in the saints ears. “You cannot overcome like Christ because he has a prior existence to inspire and guide him.” Your doctrine does not produce hope it actually destroys the hope of christians.
What you think scripture says is not important if the end conclusion of your interpretation detracts from the example of Christ for humanity. The only choice is to deny Christ as our perfect unquestionable example or make him purely human with no preexistence.

[Arnold]

Quote (martian @ June 20 2010,04:35)

Quote (Arnold @ June 20 2010,04:14) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 20 2010,00:36) JA and T8……….I agree with Adam on this brothers , You both deny that Jesus was GOD, and we all agree with that , However you still give him a divine advantage, you still believe He was (NOT) simply a Man as all men are. You both believe He was the word spoken of in John 1:1, and if you do then Adam is right you still are polytheist, because it plainly say the word (was) GOD.  You still move His identity away from our (EXACTNESS), it like you both are (PART) way out of the false teachings of the Trinity but not completely out yet. You both need to remember It was the Trinitarians that gave Jesus his “preexistence” status more then anyone else.  By changing the menacing of what John was saying, The word was not Jesus at all, it was GOD Himself , just as you words are you yourself, so it is with GOD. John know full well how to spell Jesus name, and if he wanted to mean Jesus he simply would have written it their. IMO peace and love to you both…………………….gene Gene!  I just finished a post to you on the same problem you have to believe that Jesus was with His Father before He became a man on earth.  Yet Scriptures do say so.  You have even denied Jesus own words in John 17:5 and other Scriptures like where it says that He was the firstborn of all creation in Co. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 and more.  Yet no you tend to just do your own thing….You call others by names that believe otherwise…. not to smart.   You and Adam need to learn from Scriptures…..Irene So you believe that Jesus existed with God as a conscious viable being. Did he have experiances  and memories from that period? If so what happened to those things upon his birth to Mary. Did his prior life impact anything that he did on Earth? If so that would impact his ability to be the perfect example to us. As I said to WJ, I can hear the devil whispering in the saints ears. “You cannot overcome like Christ because he has a prior existence to inspire and guide him.” Your doctrine does not produce hope it actually destroys the hope of christians. What you think scripture says is not important if the end conclusion of your interpretation detracts from the example of Christ for humanity. The only choice is to deny Christ as our perfect unquestionable example or make him purely human with no preexistence.

If you want to believe that, maybe the Devil is whispering in your ear. Because I go by Scriptures and not what men will tell me. You also did not do what I asked you to do and study these Scriptures did you? Is it that important to you that Jesus had to be what? exactly like us? Then He would have sinned. Don't you get it? No Human could have done what Jesus did….. Again that is why God had to send Jesus… Also Scriptureas says so……..He send Him from Heaven…. read it….Irene

[martian]

Irene,
I partially answered your question above.
To say that Christ knew of his preexistence would give him a distinct advantage in overcoming death and the world. That is an advantage we as normal humanity do not have. That lessens our ability to use him as our example.
Interpretation from anyone is subject to mistake. however to be called Christian one must believe certain truths.
1. God's character cannot change.
2. Christ mission as the Messiah was two fold. To be a pure blood sacrifice for his brothers and to be an example to humanity of how to walk perfectly with God
When our conclusions of interpretations contradict these basics of Christianity, it is not the basics that are wrong but our interpretations.

[Arnold]

Quote (martian @ June 20 2010,04:44)

Irene, I partially answered your question above. To say that Christ knew of his preexistence would give him a distinct advantage in overcoming death and the world. That is an advantage we as normal humanity do not have. That lessens our ability to use him as our example. Interpretation from anyone is subject to mistake. however to be called Christian one must believe certain truths. 1. God's character cannot change. 2. Christ mission as the Messiah was two fold. To be a pure blood sacrifice for his brothers and to be an example  to humanity of how to walk perfectly with God When our conclusions of interpretations contradict these basics of Christianity, it is not the basics that are wrong but our interpretations.

Martian! That is what men are telling you, but Scriptures tell you otherwise. Scriptures say that He was with His Father in Heaven before the world was… By Jesus own words He said in
John 17:5 “And no O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.” Are you calling Jesus a liar? I will not… I believe in Scriptures and again not mere men… Yes, He had to be more then a mere man to save us, otherwise He would have sinned like other men did. Show me a Scripture that says that He had to be exactly like us. He was born of Maria as a Human Being in that sense He is like us, but He knew where He came from……. He said so in John 17:5 Amen….Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,18:03)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,07:14) Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,12:53) YET — Here is a clear example of WJ and others pulling a scripture out of psalms 49 that is clearly talking about attempting to buy salvation with worldly wealth and applying it to  the situation of Christ blood price. Hi All Notice everyone that it is Martian who is pulling scripture out of its context. This is usually the way ATs approach the written scriptures. The passages that Martian quotes are… Why should I fear in days of adversity,        When the iniquity of my foes surrounds me,   6Even those who trust in their wealth        And boast in the abundance of their riches?   7″NO MAN CAN BY ANY MEANS REDEEM HIS BROTHER        Or give to God a ransom (Money or wealth) for him–   8For the redemption of his soul is costly,        And he should cease trying forever– The Psalmist is making the point that a man cannot be saved by “any means” of man because the price of his soul is too high. Jesus said what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and lose his own soul. Yet Jesus said a man can save his soul by taking up his cross and following him even to the death. This kind of devotion to a mere man that is demanded of Jesus would be considered blasphemous to Monotheistic Jews. For a man to require the soul of  another man to follow him even to the death would be of the Highest form of blasphemy! Jesus is our personal “Savour” who bought us with a price, the price of his “Own Blood” which is the Blood of God! Acts 20:28 – Titus 2:13, 14. Not only that, he redeemed us to be his very own! All things were made by him and for him! He is our Great God and Savour! WJ Relying on English translations again? More dishonesty? The concept of “by any means” as you use it is not in the Hebrew. The Hebrew simply says ransom. So my original point still stands. The payment being spoken of in the context is worldly wealth. It still has nothing to do with the price paid by the human blood of Christ.

Martian

Thats the translation that you used and you call me dishonest!

KJV  Pss 49:7
None of them can “by any means” redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

NKJV
None of them can “by any means” redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him–

NASB
No man can “by any means” redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him—

ASV
None of them can “by any means” redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him;

DBY
None can “by any means” redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him,

WEB
None of them can “by any means” redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

HNV
None of them can “by any means” redeem his brother, Nor give God a ransom for him.

Do you need more?

The point still stands that the price of a mans soul is to high for anybody by any means to save anyone.

Yet Jesus claims that a man must lose his own life “FOR HIS SAKE” to save his soul.

You boast of holding to Hebrew culture and interpret the scriptures by that method, yet you have denied that the devotion Jesus requires of a man to follow him even to the death would be blasphemous and idolatrous to the highest degree.

Jesus who is more than a mere man is our “Personal Savour”, yet YHWH says there is no Savour besides him!  

So once again tell me Martian, is Jesus your very own personal Savour?

WJ

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ June 20 2010,04:41)

Quote (martian @ June 20 2010,04:35) Quote (Arnold @ June 20 2010,04:14) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 20 2010,00:36) JA and T8……….I agree with Adam on this brothers , You both deny that Jesus was GOD, and we all agree with that , However you still give him a divine advantage, you still believe He was (NOT) simply a Man as all men are. You both believe He was the word spoken of in John 1:1, and if you do then Adam is right you still are polytheist, because it plainly say the word (was) GOD.  You still move His identity away from our (EXACTNESS), it like you both are (PART) way out of the false teachings of the Trinity but not completely out yet. You both need to remember It was the Trinitarians that gave Jesus his “preexistence” status more then anyone else.  By changing the menacing of what John was saying, The word was not Jesus at all, it was GOD Himself , just as you words are you yourself, so it is with GOD. John know full well how to spell Jesus name, and if he wanted to mean Jesus he simply would have written it their. IMO peace and love to you both…………………….gene Gene!  I just finished a post to you on the same problem you have to believe that Jesus was with His Father before He became a man on earth.  Yet Scriptures do say so.  You have even denied Jesus own words in John 17:5 and other Scriptures like where it says that He was the firstborn of all creation in Co. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 and more.  Yet no you tend to just do your own thing….You call others by names that believe otherwise…. not to smart.   You and Adam need to learn from Scriptures…..Irene So you believe that Jesus existed with God as a conscious viable being. Did he have experiances  and memories from that period? If so what happened to those things upon his birth to Mary. Did his prior life impact anything that he did on Earth? If so that would impact his ability to be the perfect example to us. As I said to WJ, I can hear the devil whispering in the saints ears. “You cannot overcome like Christ because he has a prior existence to inspire and guide him.” Your doctrine does not produce hope it actually destroys the hope of christians. What you think scripture says is not important if the end conclusion of your interpretation detracts from the example of Christ for humanity. The only choice is to deny Christ as our perfect unquestionable example or make him purely human with no preexistence. If you want to believe that, maybe the Devil is whispering in your ear.  Because I go by Scriptures and not what men will tell me.  You also did not do what I asked you to do and study these Scriptures did you? Is it that important to you that Jesus had to be what? exactly like us? Then He would have sinned.  Don't you get it? No Human could have done what Jesus did….. Again that is why God had to send Jesus… Also Scriptureas says so……..He send Him from Heaven…. read it….Irene

Do you believe that Christ mission was to be an example of how we are to walk with God?
Do you believe that we are to compare our walk with his and endeavor to overcome where we fall short?
If Christ had a prior existence and if that existence impacted any of his life on Earth how can there be any fair comparison for us to see our short comings. How can we say we should be like Christ when we do not know if what he did was because of his prior existence?
I have studied those verse many many times. I know how you interpret them. I have heard it over and over again. What I have not heard from you is explain what happened to his memories and exeriences when Christ was born to mary.
I have also never heard how you expect anyone to use Christ as a full and complete example of how we are supposed to be if he is not like us.

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2010,04:52)

Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,18:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,07:14) Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,12:53) YET — Here is a clear example of WJ and others pulling a scripture out of psalms 49 that is clearly talking about attempting to buy salvation with worldly wealth and applying it to  the situation of Christ blood price. Hi All Notice everyone that it is Martian who is pulling scripture out of its context. This is usually the way ATs approach the written scriptures. The passages that Martian quotes are… Why should I fear in days of adversity,        When the iniquity of my foes surrounds me,   6Even those who trust in their wealth        And boast in the abundance of their riches?   7″NO MAN CAN BY ANY MEANS REDEEM HIS BROTHER        Or give to God a ransom (Money or wealth) for him–   8For the redemption of his soul is costly,        And he should cease trying forever– The Psalmist is making the point that a man cannot be saved by “any means” of man because the price of his soul is too high. Jesus said what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and lose his own soul. Yet Jesus said a man can save his soul by taking up his cross and following him even to the death. This kind of devotion to a mere man that is demanded of Jesus would be considered blasphemous to Monotheistic Jews. For a man to require the soul of  another man to follow him even to the death would be of the Highest form of blasphemy! Jesus is our personal “Savour” who bought us with a price, the price of his “Own Blood” which is the Blood of God! Acts 20:28 – Titus 2:13, 14. Not only that, he redeemed us to be his very own! All things were made by him and for him! He is our Great God and Savour! WJ Relying on English translations again? More dishonesty? The concept of “by any means” as you use it is not in the Hebrew. The Hebrew simply says ransom. So my original point still stands. The payment being spoken of in the context is worldly wealth. It still has nothing to do with the price paid by the human blood of Christ. Martian Thats the translation that you used and you call me dishonest! KJV  Pss 49:7 None of them can “by any means” redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: NKJV None of them can “by any means” redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him– NASB No man can “by any means” redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him— ASV None of them can “by any means” redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him; DBY None can “by any means” redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him, WEB None of them can “by any means” redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: HNV None of them can “by any means” redeem his brother, Nor give God a ransom for him. Do you need more? The point still stands that the price of a mans soul is to high for anybody by any means to save anyone. Yet Jesus claims that a man must lose his own life “FOR HIS SAKE” to save his soul. You boast of holding to Hebrew culture and interpret the scriptures by that method, yet you have denied that the devotion Jesus requires of a man to follow him even to the death would be blasphemous and idolatrous to the highest degree. Jesus who is more than a mere man is our “Personal Savour”, yet YHWH says there is no Savour besides him!   So once again tell me Martian, is Jesus your very own personal Savour? WJ

Makes no difference what you post from scripture if your conclusions contradict the basic beliefs of Christianity. Believe it if you want but it is not Christianity.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ June 18 2010,18:27)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,02:07) Hi Paul Exactly! They can't! t8 like others engage in the pick and choose method when looking at the scritpures! Or they make the scriptures of none effect when they say things like “We believe in only One True God, but we believe in other true gods! Its laughable! Blessings Keith But if you were honest with yourself, you would know that I believe in one God the Father with all my being and you believe in one God the Father, Son, Spirit.

t8

But if you will be honest, you would admit that you deny certain scriptures as being part of your theology!

Is Jesus “The Mighty God” t8? (Isa 9:6, Isa 10:21)

Is he your “Mighty God” t8?

I expect you to be honest in your answer for I have been in mine!  

WJ

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ June 20 2010,04:52)

Quote (martian @ June 20 2010,04:44) Irene, I partially answered your question above. To say that Christ knew of his preexistence would give him a distinct advantage in overcoming death and the world. That is an advantage we as normal humanity do not have. That lessens our ability to use him as our example. Interpretation from anyone is subject to mistake. however to be called Christian one must believe certain truths. 1. God's character cannot change. 2. Christ mission as the Messiah was two fold. To be a pure blood sacrifice for his brothers and to be an example  to humanity of how to walk perfectly with God When our conclusions of interpretations contradict these basics of Christianity, it is not the basics that are wrong but our interpretations. Martian!   That is what men are telling you, but Scriptures tell you otherwise.  Scriptures say that He was with His Father in Heaven before the world was… By Jesus own words He said in John 17:5 “And no O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.”  Are you calling Jesus a liar? I will not… I believe in Scriptures and again not mere men… Yes, He had to be more then a mere man to save us, otherwise He would have sinned like other men did.  Show me a Scripture that says that He had to be exactly like us.  He was born of Maria as a Human Being in that sense He is like us, but He knew where He came from……. He said so in John 17:5 Amen….Irene

You scriptural interpretations contradict the basics of christianity. Are the basics wrong? If so start another religion based on your interpretation of the bible.
OR
Is it possible that your interpretations of the scriptures are wrong in which case look for other meanings of these verses that fall within the perameters of the basics of Christianity.

(When I speak of your interpretations, I include the English translations that you follow and the assumptions fostered there by men.)

I choose to stay within the basics of Christianity and judge what scripture means on that basis. I will not accept a meaning of a verse that contradicts those basics.

[martian]

Outta here for a while

[Arnold]

Quote (martian @ June 20 2010,05:04)

Outta here for a while

So when are you coming back??So I will be here!!!!Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Martian

Quote (martian @ June 19 2010,10:58)

In fact if Jesus is God and that gave him clear advantage over us in what he accomplished on Earth then how are we supposed to be like him?

I thought we were suppose to be like God? No it is you that like all Arains have brought in damnable heresys by denegrading the nature of Jesus which is exactly like the Father in every way!

You talk big stuff about your methods of interpretation but you deny that Jesus said and did things that would be considered Idolatrous and in fact blashemous for any mere man to say.

Why do you keep pushing your weak manmade doctrine that Jesus did not have an advantage over us. Even if what you say is true, what about Jesus current state? He is not still walking around in the flesh for us to follow is he?

Do you just depend on four Gospels to follow Jesus, or did Jesus say that the Spirit would speak and show us many things that they could not bear at that time?

How do you see Jesus now? Where is he seated? What is he doing now? How do you become like him? How do you follow him who you cannot see with the natural eye?

You my friend have created a Jesus after mans own image and not a Jesus after Gods.

He is the “Image of the invisible God” or the visible image of God, and we are to become like God.

Again this blows a hole in your theology where your claim to follow Hebrew culture because to say that we are to take on the image of anyone or any other being other than God himself would be Idolatry to the Hebrew, yet we are to become like Jesus.

Your argument that we cannot follow him unless he is a mere man is a straw mans argument since we are to follow God and become like him!

So once again Martian, did Jesus have an advantage over us being that he had the Holy Spirit without measure or not?

Did Jesus have an advantage over us by being born of a virgin and having no sin in him or not?

And if not, why the virgin birth?

I do not expect you to answer these questions, for I fully expect that you will do another dance or post a million word post of religous diatribe!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ June 17 2010,20:37)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 18 2010,11:43) Base your theology on the whole counsel of God's word t8, not just cherry-picked sections. I don't need to cherry pick. When a man believes that there is one God the Father, then no verse in scripture contradicts.

t8

Good, then when Isaiah the prophet calls Jesus the “Mighty God” (El Gabor) then you believe that he is “The Mighty God” don't you?

So again, is he your “Mighty God” or will you continue with your selective process of interpreting the scriptures?  

WJ

[Arnold]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2010,06:13)

Quote (t8 @ June 17 2010,20:37) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 18 2010,11:43) Base your theology on the whole counsel of God's word t8, not just cherry-picked sections. I don't need to cherry pick. When a man believes that there is one God the Father, then no verse in scripture contradicts. t8 Good, then when Isaiah the prophet calls Jesus the “Mighty God” (El Gabor) then you believe that he is “The Mighty God” don't you? So again, is he your “Mighty God” or will you continue with your selective process of interpreting the scriptures?   WJ

W.J. for once I agree with you tht Jesus is the Mighty God, but our Heavenly Father is Jehovah God, the Almighty God. There is a difference to me and not a trinity like you believe. Also he did not always exsisted.  He was the firstborn of all creation in Rev. 3:14 and in Col. 1:15…..Irene

[JustAskin]

WJ,

You made me laugh….what's new?

So, Jesus is the exact image of the 'Invisible God'….
Ah, no, He is the exact 'Visible Image' of the 'Invisible God'

Hmmm…So we have seen God, then?

Noone has seen God (Strict: Noone has seen the FACE of God).

So we have seen God's invisible face, which is the face of Jesus, which Scriptures says was not 'cumly such that one should wish to possess him' (or something like that).

[JustAskin]

WJ,

Isaiah did not call Jesus 'the Mighty God'…you just made that up….why would you need to make that up if there was Gospel proof??

Does the need to warp the Scriptured not perfectly show that your desire one of sin.

The prophecy is that Jesus would be called 'Mighty God', not the 'Mighty God', or 'the Mighty God', or, 'The Mighty God'.

Why did you add 'the' 'definite article' to change the meaning?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Arnold @ June 20 2010,07:56)

W.J. for once I agree with you tht Jesus is the Mighty God, but our Heavenly Father is Jehovah God, the Almighty God.   There is a difference to me and not a trinity like you believe. Also he did not always exsisted.  He was the firstborn of all creation in Rev. 3:14 and in Col. 1:15…..Irene

Irene, if there's a difference between “Mighty God” and “Almighty God” then why is YHWH called “Mighty God” in Isaiah 10:21 and other passages?

Why would that be Irene?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ June 19 2010,16:38)

WJ, Isaiah did not call Jesus 'the Mighty God'…you just made that up….why would you need to make that up if there was Gospel proof?? Does the need to warp the Scriptured not perfectly show that your desire one of sin. The prophecy is that Jesus would be called 'Mighty God', not the 'Mighty God', or 'the Mighty God', or, 'The Mighty God'. Why did you add 'the' 'definite article' to change the meaning?

JA

It doesn't matter?

Jesus is “The Mighty God” Isaiah spoke of, or do you say that “The Mighty God” in Isaiah 10:21 is not “The Mighty God”?

Or maybe you will say that whenever the word “Theos” (God) in the NT doesn't have the article it is not “The mighty God or God either?

Strawmans burn down quick!

Is he the Mighty God spoken of in Isaiah 9:6 or not?

Is he your Mighty God?

Is he your God, since you believe hs is “a god”?

WJ

[JustAskin]

WJ

Everyday you make yourself more of a jester with your colourful clothing and hats of lies.

You know full well that 'Mighty God' and 'The Mighty God' are two completely different things.

All your trinity proofs have fallen around your ears and so now you doing your refresher and using dodger methods.

WJ, if you need to do that then you have lost it.

Mind you, you never HAD it, so I supposed you had nothing to lose in the first place.

You deliberately added the definite article to try to fool naive readers. But you knew exactly why you did it, and that was not to prove God's word but to confuse it.

WJ, what dies Scriptures say about 'adding or taking away a word from God's word'.

WJ, do you not fear God? Obviously not…even Satan fears God, and he is a Mighty God!

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