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Quote (t8 @ June 17 2010,18:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2010,09:14) Quote (t8 @ June 17 2010,17:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2010,05:42) Jesus said… I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for “if ye believe not that I am he”, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24
I believe that he is the Christ and the son of God. Do you really believe that? Or do you give lip service to that and say that he is also the God that he is suppose to be the son of. And how do you explain that confusion?
t8Yes I believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God!
So did John and Thomas!
John said that he was the Word that was with God and was God, and that the Jews wanted to crucify him because he made himself “Equal to God” by claiming he was the Son of God!
Would you crucify him like the Jews for claiming he was “Equal to God”?
Thomas called him my Lord and God!
Paul said he was his “Great God and Savour” the one that that purified a people to himself!
Jude said he was his “Only Lord (Possesor) and Master the one that saved the children of Israel out of Egypt!
Do you believe this?
WJ
Yes, WJ, I have heard your logic many times and once I myself was brainwashed by the Trinity Doctrine, so I knew about it then too. But it is deceptive. It ignores the vast majority of scripture and views a few scriptures using the Trinity Template.For us there is one God the Father and for you there are 3 who are God. That is it in a nutshell.
There is us, and there are Trinitarians. If we take it that Paul wrote correctly.
Also, if you believe that there is one God the Father, then no scripture is difficult. When you say that 3 are God, then you have great difficultly and confusion, and that is why you often hear the last line of Trinitarian defence that says, “God is beyond our understanding”. However, that statement ignores that we are revealing God using scripture and scripture is not beyond understanding.
t8The scriptures are not difficult, it is only you and the unbelievers that find them difficult.
Who hath bewitched you to accept another Jesus?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,02:07) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 17 2010,22:31) Quote (t8 @ June 18 2010,13:44) From the beginning of this forum I have always held that Jesus existed in the FORM of God.
That he was a divine being, but not the Divine himself.
I wonder how you reconcile your statements with these three passages:“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
How do you?
Hi PaulExactly! They can't!
t8 like others engage in the pick and choose method when looking at the scritpures!
Or they make the scriptures of none effect when they say things like “We believe in only One True God, but we believe in other true gods!
Its laughable!
Blessings Keith
Keith,Paul gave Isaiah 43:10 inwhich YHWH said that before and after Him there was no god “formed.” I give the LXX of Isaiah 43:10 below. Please note the word in bold which is “ginomai” and it means “to come into being.”
43:10 γενεσθε μοι μαρτυρες καγω μαρτυς λεγει κυριος ο θεος και ο παις ον εξελεξαμην ινα γνωτε και πιστευσητε και συνητε οτι εγω ειμι εμπροσθεν μου ουκ εγενετο αλλος θεος και μετ' εμε ουκ εσται
How many times have we heard many here say that Jesus is a god and that He came into being. Yet YHWH said that no god “came into being” before or after Him?
Jack
Quote (t8 @ June 17 2010,18:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2010,09:58) Hi Is 1.18,
Our Lord.
But his God is our God.[Jn20]
Yes, Is 1.18.Listen to the voice of reason and truth.
God made Jesus Lord and Christ.
Who is God if he made Jesus Lord.
Did Jesus make himself Lord and Christ?
It is a hard road fighting the truth Is.
t8You are being disingenous.
Was Jesus “Lord” before he “emptied himself”? (Phil 2:6-8)
The context of the scriptures is speaking of his resurrection and the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecy when he was given back all that he had left to come in the flesh and be found in fashion as a man!
You should use honest exegesis t8.
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ June 17 2010,18:18) WJ, Jesus did not claim to be God. The Jews SAID 'because you say you are the Son of God, you are 'implying' that you are therefore equal to God' But Jesus answered, 'WHAT OF IT if I say that I am the Son of God. Did 'He' (God himself) not call 'THEM' also, 'gods', them unto whom the Word of God came.'?
How on earth is this making claim that anyone is saying Jesus is God, when thd very one who is the unlying, fully truthfull, always righteous, God fearing, perfect Servant, he, himself says, 'No, i am the son of God by virtue of having the Word of God given to me, just as 'they (Moses, the prophets, Abraham, Noah, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, others…) were, i am the Son of God and yet you rightly don't make claim that 'they' are also 'equal to God', do you?
JAThomas said he was “His God” and John said that he was making himself equal to God! John 20:28 – John 5:18.
WJ
Quote (martian @ June 17 2010,19:05) Quote (JustAskin @ June 18 2010,09:19) WJ, Thomas asked Jesus to prove himself. Jesus' response does not credit Thomas for his exultation but, in fact, condemns him: 'For you believe because you have seen [and touched]. BLESSED are those who have not seen and yet believe'. Thomas was NOT blessed for his realisation.
Thomas looked at Christ and saw his human Lord and Master and saw dwelling in him YHWH. Lord And God. This is no uncommon act. Everyone who claims to be a Christian should manifest their God. God should be revealed through us. We are to be filled with all the fullness of God and to the stature of Jesus Christ. If He is God that commandment makes no sense at all.
Thomas specifically calls Jesus his Lord and his God.And Thomas answered and SAID UNTO HIM, My Lord and my God. John 20:28
Has anyone ever “said to you” my Lord and my God?
WJ
Quote (t8 @ June 17 2010,20:47) Basic stuff, but I need to remind some of these truths. God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus is the son of God.
Jesus is the messiah and was sent by God.
God is a Spirit.
Jesus has a spirit.
Each of us have a spirit.We are one in spirit.
Throw the Trinity away. It is a useless theory that needs many assumptions before it even looks like it is standing. Even then, you could take any one of hundreds of scriptures and it falls down.
No point in trying to prop up something that has no true foundation.
Hi everyone.No, believe the scritpures that says Jesus is the Mighty God!
Do not listen to the voice of a stranger that diminishes the nature of Jesus to being some sort of demi god.
For it will only lead down the path that you see Jesus as just a mere man and therefore create a false image of who the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit is.
Jesus is the “image of the invisible God” or the visible image of God, and to see him as less than God is to create a false image of God!
Jesus is the True God. Isa 9:6 – John 1:1-14 -Tit 2:13 2 Peter 1:1 – 1 John 5:20 – Rev 1:8 just to mention a few!
Blessings WJ
Quote (t8 @ June 17 2010,18:20) WJ, would prefer to take any stance that backs his view. And if truth is a casualty, then so be it. That is how it appears to me.
No!WJ would rather stand on scriptures that says Jesus is my Lord and My God. Jesus is the Mighty God and he is my Mighty God. Jude 1:4,5 John 20:28, Isa 9:6.
That is scritpure isn't it t8?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,02:17) Quote (martian @ June 17 2010,19:33) I IN NO WAY IMPLIED TWO SAVIORS. GOD IS THE ONLY SAVIOR. He may except the sacrifice of Christ as payment for our redemption and save us for Christ sake.
Jesus paid a price acceptable to God and God saves us even as he saved Christ from death when he raised him from the dead.
MartianYou are contradicting yourself! You say that YHWH is the only Savour, yet you say that Jesus paid the price for our salvation.
In other words without Jesus paying the price for our salvation we would not be saved.
You might have a point if the scriptures did not say that Jesus IS our personal Savour and that “HE SAVED US WITH HIS OWN BLOOD”!
Live with your contradictions, for no mere man could pay the price to save us as the scritpures clearly teach!
Therefore Jesus is God!
WJ
You spend so much time defending your doctrine that you have missed very important aspects of the relationship that God desires to have with man.
You do not seem to get it that paramount in God’s plan is to work with man to accomplish God’s goals in His creation. In fact the Word “faith” in the Hebrew means working with God.
You do not want to see that all the men in the OT that I posted previously that were called savior or called to do saving work cooperated with God to accomplish their mutual goals. This is primary in the Father – son relationship They work together for the benefit of the entire household. It is unfortunate that you do not understand these types of relationships.
Jesus, like those mentioned in the OT, worked with his father to do the work of salvation. The fact that Christ forgave sins and even raised Lazarus from the dead does not deter from his humanity in that he said many times that he only did what his father instructed him to do. He always gave credit to his father for the power that was in him to do the works. He said his father is working and so is he. They both had a part to share in the mission of the Messiah. In most cases the work of deity was done through Christ but by God himself. The work of humanity was done by Christ for God.
There are not two saviors. There is one, YHWH. Christ is called savior because the work was done through him.
When the high priest made sacrifice for the sins of Israel. The people paid the price with the spotless lamb but it was God that accepted it and gave forgiveness. Christ paid the price with his own blood, God accepted it as a pure sacrifice and gave forgiveness.NOW ENOUGH OF ANSWERING YOUR SIDETRACK.
From my original post. What is the context of psalms 49? Is the context about men trying to buy their salvation with wealth or not? And in the middle of this context God tells them that no man can pay for salvation for themselves or others. Attempt to pay with what? Worldly wealth. It has nothing to do with what the man Christ paid.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2010,10:50) Quote (t8 @ June 17 2010,18:20) WJ, would prefer to take any stance that backs his view. And if truth is a casualty, then so be it. That is how it appears to me.
No!WJ would rather stand on scriptures that says Jesus is my Lord and My God. Jesus is the Mighty God and he is my Mighty God. Jude 1:4,5 John 20:28, Isa 9:6.
That is scritpure isn't it t8?
WJ
t8Is Jesus the “Mighty God”?
Is he your “Mighty God”?
If you say no, then you are the one that denys the scriptures!
WJ
Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,11:55) NOW ENOUGH OF ANSWERING YOUR SIDETRACK.
From my original post. What is the context of psalms 49? Is the context about men trying to buy their salvation with wealth or not? And in the middle of this context God tells them that no man can pay for salvation for themselves or others. Attempt to pay with what? Worldly wealth. It has nothing to do with what the man Christ paid.
MartianYou are creating a smoke screen and a strawman.
It doesn't matter if men were trying to buy their salvation with wealth or riches or with their own life and blood!
No mortal man could pay the price for sin even with his own blood.
For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.
Jesus is not a Savour by proxy as you have tried to portray him.
He is “The Savour” who saved us with his own life and blood!
Scripture clearly teaches there is only “One Savour”.
But you are side stepping this fact!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,02:17) Quote (martian @ June 17 2010,19:33) I IN NO WAY IMPLIED TWO SAVIORS. GOD IS THE ONLY SAVIOR. He may except the sacrifice of Christ as payment for our redemption and save us for Christ sake.
Jesus paid a price acceptable to God and God saves us even as he saved Christ from death when he raised him from the dead.
MartianYou are contradicting yourself! You say that YHWH is the only Savour, yet you say that Jesus paid the price for our salvation.
In other words without Jesus paying the price for our salvation we would not be saved.
You might have a point if the scriptures did not say that Jesus IS our personal Savour and that “HE SAVED US WITH HIS OWN BLOOD”!
Live with your contradictions, for no mere man could pay the price to save us as the scritpures clearly teach!
Therefore Jesus is God!
WJ
In the temple spotless lambs were sacrificed for the forgiveness of sins on the day of atonement. The lambs did not do the actual forgiving work. The were a fitting sacrifice to God who then did the forgiving.It is the same with Christ. He was a fitting sacrifice for no man deserved to live forever more then him. No mad deserved less the cruel death inflicted upon him. Even Pilot proclaimed him innocent and said he had done nothing to deserve death.
No man can pay silver and Gold for salvation but one perfect spotless lamb can pay the price with his own blood. Christ is that lamb.17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
Our faith and hope is in God who raised christ from the dead and glorified him. WHY? Because a human being fully like us was raised from the dead and glorified. For this reason we can have hope. If a God was raised from the dead (assuming a God can die) we can take no solace or have any hope of our own ressurection and glorification.
.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,04:19) Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,11:55) NOW ENOUGH OF ANSWERING YOUR SIDETRACK.
From my original post. What is the context of psalms 49? Is the context about men trying to buy their salvation with wealth or not? And in the middle of this context God tells them that no man can pay for salvation for themselves or others. Attempt to pay with what? Worldly wealth. It has nothing to do with what the man Christ paid.
MartianYou are creating a smoke screen and a strawman.
It doesn't matter if men were trying to buy their salvation with wealth or riches or with their own life and blood!
No mortal man could pay the price for sin even with his own blood.
For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.
Jesus is not a Savour by proxy as you have tried to portray him.
He is “The Savour” who saved us with his own life and blood!
Scripture clearly teaches there is only “One Savour”.
But you are side stepping this fact!
WJ
It is not a strawman to actually quote scriptures within their context. You have still thrown up a sidetrack. You refuse to admit that the context of psalm 49 is about attempting to but salvation with wealth. Is it about that or not!!! NO MORE DANCING AROUND THE SUBJECT. Will you admit that you took the verse out of context?Perhaps some cannot see what I am attempting to do. Let me explain.
On several occasions I have posted reasonable principles for interpreting and understanding scripture. First and foremost among them is to not make a conclusion about a scripture that goes against the context of the verse in question. When I have posted these principle WJ has agreed with them. YET — Here is a clear example of WJ and others pulling a scripture out of psalms 49 that is clearly talking about attempting to buy salvation with worldly wealth and applying it to the situation of Christ blood price. He will not admit that he pulled this verse out of context or even admit the context of the verse. He is talking out of both sides of his mouth. His interpretation principles are in great question. With that being the case how can one trust his conclusions?After three years on this board I realize that he will not change. He is unwilling to change no matter how wrong he is proven. I know I am casting my pearls before the swine. I know it is useless BUT sometimes entertaining to watch them wallow in the muck and mire.
Salvation requires a blood sacrifice.
Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
But whose blood? Some would have you believe that it has to be the blood of God himself. It is pretty presumptuous for anyone to say they require God to bleed to forgive them. Secondly it is not up to us what sacrifice God requires.
Romans 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
Did God present himself as a sacrifice of attonement?
Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
Did Christ “the God” offer himself to himself?Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,12:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,04:19) Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,11:55) NOW ENOUGH OF ANSWERING YOUR SIDETRACK.
From my original post. What is the context of psalms 49? Is the context about men trying to buy their salvation with wealth or not? And in the middle of this context God tells them that no man can pay for salvation for themselves or others. Attempt to pay with what? Worldly wealth. It has nothing to do with what the man Christ paid.
MartianYou are creating a smoke screen and a strawman.
It doesn't matter if men were trying to buy their salvation with wealth or riches or with their own life and blood!
No mortal man could pay the price for sin even with his own blood.
For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.
Jesus is not a Savour by proxy as you have tried to portray him.
He is “The Savour” who saved us with his own life and blood!
Scripture clearly teaches there is only “One Savour”.
But you are side stepping this fact!
WJ
It is not a strawman to actually quote scriptures within their context. You have still thrown up a sidetrack. You refuse to admit that the context of psalm 49 is about attempting to but salvation with wealth. Is it about that or not!!! NO MORE DANCING AROUND THE SUBJECT. Will you admit that you took the verse out of context?
NO!It is still the same thing! No man can save another man by wealth or riches or his own life.
Will you admit that Jesus is your “Personal” Savour and that only God can be your Savour?
WJ
Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,13:15) Salvation requires a blood sacrifice.
Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
But whose blood? Some would have you believe that it has to be the blood of God himself. It is pretty presumptuous for anyone to say they require God to bleed to forgive them. Secondly it is not up to us what sacrifice God requires.
Romans 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
Did God present himself as a sacrifice of attonement?
Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
Did Christ “the God” offer himself to himself?
MartianMake up your mind, is it the Blood of God or not. Is Jesus the sacrifice that the Father sent or not.
Now explain how Jesus is our own personal Savour and redeemed us with “His own Blood”.
WJ
Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,12:53)
YET — Here is a clear example of WJ and others pulling a scripture out of psalms 49 that is clearly talking about attempting to buy salvation with worldly wealth and applying it to the situation of Christ blood price.
Hi AllNotice everyone that it is Martian who is pulling scripture out of its context. This is usually the way ATs approach the written scriptures.
The passages that Martian quotes are…
Why should I fear in days of adversity,
When the iniquity of my foes surrounds me,
6Even those who trust in their wealth
And boast in the abundance of their riches?
7″NO MAN CAN BY ANY MEANS REDEEM HIS BROTHER
Or give to God a ransom (Money or wealth) for him–
8For the redemption of his soul is costly,
And he should cease trying forever–The Psalmist is making the point that a man cannot be saved by “any means” of man because the price of his soul is too high.
Jesus said what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and lose his own soul. Yet Jesus said a man can save his soul by taking up his cross and following him even to the death.
This kind of devotion to a mere man that is demanded of Jesus would be considered blasphemous to Monotheistic Jews. For a man to require the soul of another man to follow him even to the death would be of the Highest form of blasphemy!
Jesus is our personal “Savour” who bought us with a price, the price of his “Own Blood” which is the Blood of God! Acts 20:28 – Titus 2:13, 14. Not only that, he redeemed us to be his very own!
All things were made by him and for him! He is our Great God and Savour!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,07:14) Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,12:53)
YET — Here is a clear example of WJ and others pulling a scripture out of psalms 49 that is clearly talking about attempting to buy salvation with worldly wealth and applying it to the situation of Christ blood price.
Hi AllNotice everyone that it is Martian who is pulling scripture out of its context. This is usually the way ATs approach the written scriptures.
The passages that Martian quotes are…
Why should I fear in days of adversity,
When the iniquity of my foes surrounds me,
6Even those who trust in their wealth
And boast in the abundance of their riches?
7″NO MAN CAN BY ANY MEANS REDEEM HIS BROTHER
Or give to God a ransom (Money or wealth) for him–
8For the redemption of his soul is costly,
And he should cease trying forever–The Psalmist is making the point that a man cannot be saved by “any means” of man because the price of his soul is too high.
Jesus said what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and lose his own soul. Yet Jesus said a man can save his soul by taking up his cross and following him even to the death.
This kind of devotion to a mere man that is demanded of Jesus would be considered blasphemous to Monotheistic Jews. For a man to require the soul of another man to follow him even to the death would be of the Highest form of blasphemy!
Jesus is our personal “Savour” who bought us with a price, the price of his “Own Blood” which is the Blood of God! Acts 20:28 – Titus 2:13, 14. Not only that, he redeemed us to be his very own!
All things were made by him and for him! He is our Great God and Savour!
WJ
Excellent post WJ!Martian, WJ,
“Life is in the Blood”
God required a 'Pure Blood Sacrifice' to atone for the Sin of Adam but none of man was found.
So a pure, spotless animal was used instead, but as Scripture says, 'If animal sacrifice was 'acceptable' to God then 'we' would not have remained in sin to this day'…
'Only the 'pure unblemished blood' of a Son of God was acceptable.
Sin and death by the unrighteous act of the first Son of God.
Salvation and Life by the righteousness and Death of the Second Son of God.
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