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Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,06:04) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 16 2010,02:38) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,02:25) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 15 2010,10:06) Martian said: Quote As I have said many many times if your interpretation or conclusions make Christ anything other then a normal human being that we can immulate (as is very clear in God's plan) then your conclusions are wrong. No matter what you think the scripture says.
Then the author to the Hebrews was wrong for he said that Christ was a high priest who was without weakness.Hebrews 7:28, For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
*The law appointed men as high priests who have weakness
*The oath appointed a man who did not have weakness
Ergo, Christ was not a “normal” High Priest which in turn infers that He was not a “normal” man.
Verse 16 says that Christ was appointed High priest according to His indestructible life. Again, this doesn't appear “normal” to me. But for some reason Martian takes consolation in having a high priest that is as weak as himself. Go figure.
the Roo
As I said your conclusion causes so many many contradictions about Christ full humanity that it is silly. Since your conclusion is wrong then something has gone amiss in the way you interpret scripture.
Of course a first year Christian could see your mistake a mile away.
Heb 7
Verse 14 – Christ deScended from tribe of Judah HUMAN HERITAGE
16 “HAS BECOME” means there was a time when he was not high priest.
Verse 23 and 24 Human priests die and end their mission as priests. Christ is a priest forever after his resurrection
Verse 25 Christ always lives. this is obviously after his resurrection and not before. The entire context of the section of verse compares the temporary priesthood with the permanent priesthood of Christ after his resurrection.
You assume that our humanity is true humanity. The fact is that our humanity is fallen and therefore is not true. What Bible are you reading?Does the scripture not say that the law appointed men as high priests that had weakness? Does it not say that Christ was not appointed by law but by oath? Therefore, Christ had no weakness.
Prove your assumption that humanity as we know it is true humanity.
Kangaroo Jack
TRUE HUMANITY?
WHAT PLANET ARE YOU ON???
You need to go talk to Elvis and get your story straight.
You say that I am from another planet? You're the Martian!What Bible are you reading dude! Paul said that the first man was of the earth and therefore “earthy.” The second man is the Lord FROM HEAVEN and we will bear His SPIRITUAL IMAGE.
It is only THEN that we become true humanity as God intended humanity to be.
Again, the scripture PLAINLY declares that the law appointed as high priests men who had weakness. But Christ was NOT appointed by the law but by the oath. Therefore, Christ had no weakness.
You are an incurable gnostic aren't you? You measure reality by the things that are seen.
Kangaroo Jack
Hi KJ,
If we share the Spirit of Christ of course we will be like him.
But why do you want to make him an idol?WJ,
God does not become anything he wants to be.
God does not change.
God changes neither his mind nor his person.
What other thing can God become. Everything is 'Within' God, what need is there ever, for God to become something within himself. If he were to do that then he would not be God.
Does a field marshall become one of the troops?Does a Man become a Child, or a Woman?
God nearly always does his work through a third party. The main 'third party' is his Son, Jesus Christ, his 'perfect servant' and begotten heir.
(In the film, 'The Godfather', did the Godfather, once he became the Godfather) ever do anything 'outside'? No, he 'spoke' and the Caporegime (The Princes) acted out his 'Word' on his behalfQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 16 2010,06:34) Quote (martian @ June 15 2010,14:05) Personally I do not care what people think they can prove from scripture if it contradicts the missions of Christ. I am not interested in scriptural point counter point. I do not need it to prove my point. If the end conclusion of their scriptural diatribe ends up contradicting the 2 missions of Christ then there IS NO WAY IT CAN BE TRUE.
MartianAnd personally we do not care that you have set up a false dichotomy to justify you denial of the scriptures that disagree with you!
You have not included the main mission of Christ and that is to reveal who God is! For how can you be saved if you do not know the one who is the only Savour?
And who can better exemplify what man is supposed to be than the creator himself?
God can become anything that he wants to become and in fact that is what he did.
How did men serve and follow YHWH before Jesus came in the flesh? Did they need a mere man to show them how to follow him?
Jesus had the Spirit without measure and that means he had an advantage over us, so I guess that blows your manmade theory into oblivion doesn't it?
WJ
Keith,Martian thinks that Christ has to be weak and pitiful like us in order for Him to be for real. The scripture PLAINLY declares that men with weakness were appointed by the law while Jesus was appointed by the oath. Therefore, He had no weakness. The manner inwhich Christ was appointed in and of itself puts Him at an advantage FOR OUR SAKES. But Martian takes Christ's advantage and turns it in to something that would be against us and over us.
And you're right that His having the Spirit “without measure” and “above His fellows” in and of itself is an advantage. When will Martian figure out that a man with an advantage is what we needed?
Jack
Jesus had no weakness… This true in the main as far as his spirituallness and belief in his father was concerned.
'Jesus' EMPTIED himself of his Divinity and became wholly man….A perfect Man, as 'perfect' in form as God had created Adam.
He still had the possibility of sinning, as Adam proved …but Jesus was not seduced to the darkside, as Adam was.
He did not 'weaken' in the face of outright temptation…but remember (forgive him) that he asked if God would take the cup away from him,'if it be thy will, not mine'. Here is a momentary lapse but mighty recovery…'if ther could be another way, Father!' but he stayed firm to the task, yeah, even unto death, and death to a perfect one undeserving such…yes, he sweated blood over it.
jesus wasn't God. The fruit tree that did not produce it's fruit, even out of season, when Jesus passed by… Could the tree have defied God? No…no way! OK, Jesus cursed it and it shrivelled up, and acted a a prophecy for the wicked nation, but all the same, it defied Jesus and got its just reward for its defience.Quote (JustAskin @ June 15 2010,16:44) WJ, God does not become anything he wants to be.
God does not change.
God changes neither his mind nor his person.
What other thing can God become. Everything is 'Within' God, what need is there ever, for God to become something within himself. If he were to do that then he would not be God.
Does a field marshall become one of the troops?Does a Man become a Child, or a Woman?
God nearly always does his work through a third party. The main 'third party' is his Son, Jesus Christ, his 'perfect servant' and begotten heir.
(In the film, 'The Godfather', did the Godfather, once he became the Godfather) ever do anything 'outside'? No, he 'spoke' and the Caporegime (The Princes) acted out his 'Word' on his behalf
JATo say that God cannot change form or be what he wants is to limit God.
It is a false concept that God cannot interact and become one with his creation if he so chooses!
It is also false to believe that God created something out of nothing, for everything that came into being came from him who is the source of all things!
Would you limit God to be less than his Angels, when even the Angels can appear as a man?
So why is it hard to believe that God can come in the likeness of sinful flesh and be found in fashion as a man if he so chooses?
Yes the immutable qualities of his character cannot change, but the creator of all things can appear or become what ever he wants by changing his form.
“I-shall-be that I-shall-be.“
WJ
Hi WJ,
It is not necessary to imagine what God can do.
It is not necessary to imagine He became His own son.
It is not written and I am surprised you prefer to rely on speculationQuote (JustAskin @ June 15 2010,17:07) 'Jesus' EMPTIED himself of hid Divinity and became wholly man….A perfect Man, as 'perfect' in form as God had created Adam.
JA where is the scripture for this?Jesus did not empty himself of his nature!
It's interesting that you think that Jesus could “change his nature” but that the Father couldn't change his nature?
Hello!
WJ
Quote (kerwin @ June 15 2010,12:41) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 15 2010,04:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2010,09:31) Hi KJ,
Serious answers are offered to serious students of scripture.
Dogma salesmen get less.
Verse 4 says that the prophecy is against the King of Babylon. True or false?KJ
That is irrelevant since God is known to deal in type thus he can use one example of a type to refer to another person that is the same type.In this case he could be using Satan to refer to the King of Babylon.
The prophecy is still against the King of Babylon who is following the same path Satan tred before him.
Sorry,I may of jumped to the wrong conclusions on this post as I was thinking about a passage that is said to be speaking of Satan which is also rebuking the King of Babylon. You on the other hand may have been speaking of something completely different.
JustAskin said:
Quote God does not become anything he wants to be. God does not change.
God changes neither his mind nor his person.
Hi JA,
Thanks man! You have just admitted that the Person who revealed Himself to Moses in the burning bush was not Jehovah but the Messenger of Jehovah. For He said to Moses, “I will BECOME what I will BECOME.” Look at Exodus 3:14 in the Hebrew-English Interlinear. The Messenger told Moses to tell the people that “I shall BECOME has sent me to you.”
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
Since you say that God cannot “become” anything He wants to be, then the Person who revealed Himself in the burning bush could not have been God as you define Him.
btw, God used the same verb form when He said to Moses that his rod would BECOME a serpent.
KJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 16 2010,09:11) Quote (JustAskin @ June 15 2010,16:44) WJ, God does not become anything he wants to be.
God does not change.
God changes neither his mind nor his person.
What other thing can God become. Everything is 'Within' God, what need is there ever, for God to become something within himself. If he were to do that then he would not be God.
Does a field marshall become one of the troops?Does a Man become a Child, or a Woman?
God nearly always does his work through a third party. The main 'third party' is his Son, Jesus Christ, his 'perfect servant' and begotten heir.
(In the film, 'The Godfather', did the Godfather, once he became the Godfather) ever do anything 'outside'? No, he 'spoke' and the Caporegime (The Princes) acted out his 'Word' on his behalf
JATo say that God cannot change form or be what he wants is to limit God.
It is a false concept that God cannot interact and become one with his creation if he so chooses!
It is also false to believe that God created something out of nothing, for everything that came into being came from him who is the source of all things!
Would you limit God to be less than his Angels, when even the Angels can appear as a man?
So why is it hard to believe that God can come in the likeness of sinful flesh and be found in fashion as a man if he so chooses?
Yes the immutable qualities of his character cannot change, but the creator of all things can appear or become what ever he wants by changing his form.
“I-shall-be that I-shall-be.“
WJ
How idiotic is this post !!!!!
WJ and others continue to preach lies about God. They teach a God other then the true Christian God. There are things that God cannot do. Not because he is lacking in power as WJ says I project but because his nature does not permit Him to change from who he is.1. God cannot lie. His standard of right and wrong does not change. He cannot say something is true today and not true tomorrow.
Abraham knew this and even when confronted with slaying Isaac, Abraham knew that God would have to raise him from the dead because of the promises made by God about Isaac.
God can never again send a worldwide flood because He made a promise against it.Heb.6
13For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself,
14saying, “I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU.”
15And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise.
16For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute.
17In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath,
18so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.2. Can God stop being God or stop existing? God is infinite. The morality of God does not change. His character does not change. Attributes of that character are holiness, truthfulness, love, mercy, and justice. The nature of God is infinite meaning no end. God is the only being in the universe that is absolute in His character. He is the ultimate of perfection. God cannot cease to exist. He is self sustaining in His existence. God is eternal and cannot die.
3. God is not free to act contrary to His character. His commands and actions are grounded in what is ultimately and eventually good and righteous. Because we cannot know or see everything it may appear at times that God breaks this attribute but it always turns out to be for the good.
4. God cannot sin or be tempted to sin. Holiness is an absolute in God’s nature and cannot change.
5. God is not arbitrary. Everything that God does has purpose. God’s creation (including man) has a purpose. Men may fail to find their purpose, but that does not mean they were created without one. In the same way God’s plan’s have purpose and function as God designed them. The purpose or “Fruit” of God’s creation is the perfecting of His children into beings with which He can have fellowship. Children who have all of God’s character possible within a human being. All of God’s plans center around this single goal. If we are following a plan that does not produce this kind of fruit, it is not the fault of God’s plan it is that we are following a plan other then God’s.
WJ throws out things like “I will be what I will be” as proof of such silly doctrine.
YHWH (יהוה YHWH, Strong's #3068): Virtually all translations from Judaism and Christianity use “the LORD” for the Hebrew name of God – YHWH. The original pronunciation of the name can never be determined with complete accuracy but in Hebraic thought it is the meaning of a name that is more important than its pronunciation. The Hebrew YHWH is the verb hawah meaning “to exist” with the prefix y meaning “he.” Therefore, the word YHWH means “he exists.” YHWH is the one who exists every where every time.
There is no indication within the name itself that would depict a being capable of changing it’s nature. On the contrary the term would indicate both in meaning and in many scriptures that he is unchanging in both character and nature. God cannot and would not change into a being capable of temptation or sin, nor would he be able to become mortal.
God cannot be tempted to sin and cannot die. WJ attempts to weedle around with words and missdirections to change the character of the Christian God to fit within his doctrine.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 16 2010,09:17) Quote (JustAskin @ June 15 2010,17:07) 'Jesus' EMPTIED himself of hid Divinity and became wholly man….A perfect Man, as 'perfect' in form as God had created Adam.
JA where is the scripture for this?Jesus did not empty himself of his nature!
It's interesting that you think that Jesus could “change his nature” but that the Father couldn't change his nature?
Hello!
WJ
We do agreed upon that. Phil 2 has nothing to do with God emptying anything. It has to do with “attitude” as the context clearly says. It is a direct comparison between the first Adam and the second Adam (Christ)Martian said:
Quote How idiotic is this post !!!!!
WJ and others continue to preach lies about God. They teach a God other then the true Christian God.
Martian,You are the liar. God told Moses to tell the people, “I shall BECOME has sent me unto you.” It is the same form of the verb used when God said, “Your rod shall BECOME a serpent.”
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
It was the Messenger of Jehovah who said, “I shall BECOME what I shall become.” Can the Messenger “become” Martian? Was His manifestation in the burning bush not a “becoming?”
The problem is with your Gnosticism!
Kangaroo Jack
WJ,
I am tempted to call you a 'joke' for someone whom claims to be a pastor, but I won't.
First off, I never said God created something out of nothing. Where did you get that from. I said everything is within God…did you not read that part? I wrote a whole 'thing on what God is', i guess you can't have read it.
Secondly, WHY…why would the creator want to change…you keep going on about 'limiting God'. How is God limited when He IS everything, everything Is of Him. Why would the houseowner want to become a tenant in his own house? Who then would be the owner? Understand with wisdom WJ.
Did you not understand the simili with the Godfather? Or did you choose to ignore it?
Arrggh…'God come in the form of sinful flesh'… Excuse me? Are you for real? Please read that again and ask yourself what is wrong with that statement?
I think you are confusing scripture verses that say God will come to his people, or similar. It is not the 'person' of God that comes but His Word, what He spoke, the testament that He spoke to His Son.
You, at one point adhere to this, and in another claim it is God himself…man, you are all over the place.Where does it say Jesus emptied himself of his divinity…WJ, should I even answer this? You know what, no, I won't… You ask, only because you are attempting to deny a very basic scriptural truth, how odd?
And you quote God's name as if you are making a revelation. But you are wrong. That is not what it means. It means He is who he Is. And that is an indescribable entity that can only be 'seen' by sinless flesh or spirit. It doesn't mean that He is 'different things' as He wants, that is not 'God'. WJ, why do you not quote scriptures where God say that He does not change…and that is right: God does not change, neither His mind, nor his form. If one claims that Jesus is 'perfect' then what of God Almighty?WJ, try to be true to Truth and not just make out nonesense just to cause dispute.
Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,10:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 16 2010,09:17) Quote (JustAskin @ June 15 2010,17:07) 'Jesus' EMPTIED himself of hid Divinity and became wholly man….A perfect Man, as 'perfect' in form as God had created Adam.
JA where is the scripture for this?Jesus did not empty himself of his nature!
It's interesting that you think that Jesus could “change his nature” but that the Father couldn't change his nature?
Hello!
WJ
We do agreed upon that. Phil 2 has nothing to do with God emptying anything. It has to do with “attitude” as the context clearly says. It is a direct comparison between the first Adam and the second Adam (Christ)
Read Philippians 2 again Martian. The 'attitude' involved Him taking another “form” and being made in the likeness of men. You are just repeating the same ole Gnostic objections. You are not a Christian.Kangaroo Jack
Hi KJ,
Dig deep and lay a sound foundation for yourself if you would be judge.
Christ Jesus began at the anointing of the man Jesus at the Jordan with the Spirit of ChristJack,
God does not 'become' anything.
God does not change, so how can he 'become'. He 'Is'.
The YHVH, means 'he was, is and always will be'
It means, 'He is'.
It means, 'He will be'…always…“I will be what I Am'
“I am what I Am”
“I am what I Will be”
“I will be what I will be”It's not about change to become, in fact it's the opposite. It is 'None Change'. A rock, how do you cling to a rock that changes…? How can you believe in a God that can Change, if He can change then He is not complete, is not final (Think if your thesis, a perfect thesis, why would you dumb it down, perfection dumbed dowm, no way…then why apply it, you and WJ, to God Almighty?)
WJ’s theories on God produce no fruit other then confusion. There is no solid rock of hope to cling to no matter what. Instead He worships a God that can change his character upon a whim. A God that can decide today to be pure and holy but tomorrow change into a being capable of temptation. (He will probably now throw up the dodge of saying temptation does not necessarily require a capability to sin) Such nonsense. Maybe tomorrow God will decide to tell us it was all a lie and have a big hearty evil laugh about it. Why not that is the changeable God of WJ. Maybe tomorrow God will decide to become a bunny rabbit.
BE WARRY WARRY QUIET I AM HUNTING WABITS.
Yep, God better watch out for Elmer Fudd.
Maybe tomorrow God will die. After all he can become mortal.
THE SKY IS FALLING AND GOD IS DEAD.
WJ wants us to think of him as a Father in the Christian faith. He is determined for us to believe that he has the truth.
13I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.
I have no doubt that WJ knows God. He has met him in a salvation experience. I have no doubt that he has had some success in overcoming the evil one (despite his false doctrine) however I do doubt he knows the one who is from the beginning or he could never attempt to prove that this Christian God could change his character or mortality or worse yet that the real God could stop being God.
Look out God, WJ has made you capable of becoming a waskly wabbit.Some try to say that God had to become a man in order understand our suffering and sacrifice himself for our salvation. Firstly God understands us. He created us. Sacrificing oneself is a deep concept. We give medals to men in service that do such things. I wonder how many of those men would be willing to sacrifice their son for the same reasons?
I cannot believe that any man would be able to sacrifice even their own imperfect sons. How much more difficult would it be for God to sacrifice his perfect son. A son that had fulfilled all he ask of him. A son that had never disappointed his father and always done what pleased him. If I had a son like that it would be much more difficult for me to sacrifice my son then to give up my life.
God does not need to prove his sacrifice by become mortal and dieing. He made a more meaningful sacrifice in his perfect son.
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