Preexistence

[JustAskin]

EDJ,

Thanks for that.

Regards, Ja.

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 10 2010,03:40)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 08 2010,22:46) Hi WJ, You would try to divide between God and His Spirit in Christ to demean a brother? NH No I wouldn't, because you can't “divide” the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit for they ONE. The whole point is, if we have Jesus we have God and we have life. Without Jesus who is the source of Eternal life and the author and finisher of our faith, then we do not have the Father. Jesus is not some sort of empty funnel. He is one in essence with the Father and the Holy Spirit and you cannot have one without the other. The scriptures over and over declare that Jesus is the life, not that he is just a vessel of life. Therefore he is the ultimate source of life to all because he possesses all things! He that hath the Son has Life! Why because Jesus is the Life! Mens carnal mind always find ways to make Jesus less than who or what he is just because they cannot confess him as their God even though the scritpures say he is God and the Apostles confessed him as their God! WJ

Hi WJ:

The point is that there is “Only One God”.  He is the source of all, and is above all.  Jesus is the author of eternal life to all who obey him because he learned obedience through the suffering that he endured in this world, and so, having obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, he is able to help me also to learn obedience through the example of his life by applying what God taught humanity through him (God's Word) to my daily life.  But without the blood that he shed for me I could not be saved because even as I obey God's Word, I do fall short of perfect obedience.  Nevertheless, without God there would be no Jesus, therefore, God is the ultimate source.

Quote

Hebrews 5:5So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I have not made Jesus less than he is.  He is my Lord and I love him and obey him, but he is not God, but the Son of the Living God and His Christ.  When I obey him, I am obeying God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ April 14 2010,18:18)

Hi WJ: The point is that there is “Only One God”.

Marty

You keep saying this even though the scriptures say Jesus is God. They are One! I accept all the scriptures and you don't, that simple! But that is your right!

WJ

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2010,10:37)

Quote (942767 @ April 14 2010,18:18) Hi WJ: The point is that there is “Only One God”. Marty You keep saying this even though the scriptures say Jesus is God. They are One! I accept all the scriptures and you don't, that simple! But that is your right! WJ

Hi WJ:

The scriptures state that Jesus is God? What scriptures state that he is God?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[KangarooJack]

JustAskin said;

Quote

Why is Jesus a Representation of God if He Is God? How is the representation of something the actual something?

JA,

In Hebrews 1 Christ is called the “exact representation of the Father's charakter.” This means that you cannot tell the one from the other. If you could to go to heaven and see the Father and the Son side by side you would not know which was which because Jesus is the “exact representation of the Father's charakter.”

Anti-trinitarians do not like to talk about the fact that Christ is the exact representation of the Father. They talk about Him only as a faint copy of God. But He is the exact representation of the Father and as such He corresponds to the Father in every detail and yet is a separate person. He is the exact counterpart of the Father.

Yes we will be conformed to Christ's glorious image. But Paul said that we will still be distinguishable as each star “differs in glory.” We will never be God's “exact counterpart” like Christ. In other words, we will be able to distinguish from each other but we will not be able to distinguish the Father from the Son.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (942767 @ April 15 2010,11:21)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2010,10:37) Quote (942767 @ April 14 2010,18:18) Hi WJ: The point is that there is “Only One God”. Marty You keep saying this even though the scriptures say Jesus is God. They are One! I accept all the scriptures and you don't, that simple! But that is your right! WJ Hi WJ: The scriptures state that Jesus is God?  What scriptures state that he is God? Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,

Please don't feign ignorance.

thinker

[942767]

Quote (thethinker @ April 15 2010,11:24)

Quote (942767 @ April 15 2010,11:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2010,10:37) Quote (942767 @ April 14 2010,18:18) Hi WJ: The point is that there is “Only One God”. Marty You keep saying this even though the scriptures say Jesus is God. They are One! I accept all the scriptures and you don't, that simple! But that is your right! WJ Hi WJ: The scriptures state that Jesus is God?  What scriptures state that he is God? Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Please don't feign ignorance. thinker

Hi Thethinker:

God has revealed to humanity that Jesus is the Son of the living God and His Christ(Matthew 16), and that he is the last Adam (1 Co. 15) and that he is the “express image” of God's person (Hebrews 1). He said “he who has seen me has seen the Father”. Is he the Father? Or is he the Son who was obeying God's Word, and we see God manifest through the works that he was and does through obedience to the Father who is the “One and Only God”.

Are they the same person? or is there a Father and a Son? They are “One in the spirit”. It was the Word of God that Jesus obeyed, and is the Word of God that he watches over to perform as head of the church.

Jesus also prays that we would be “one in the spirit with he and God”. It is through the Word of God that we obey that we will be “one with them”.

Quote

John 17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me

There is no scripture that literally states that Jesus is God. There are some scriptures which you and others misinterpret to say that, but there are many other scriptures which plainly state that there is “One God”. It is God that we are obeying from the head of the church to the tiniest pinky in the body of Christ. The body of Christ is the Holy Temple of God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[KangarooJack]

Quote (942767 @ April 15 2010,11:54)

Quote (thethinker @ April 15 2010,11:24) Quote (942767 @ April 15 2010,11:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2010,10:37) Quote (942767 @ April 14 2010,18:18) Hi WJ: The point is that there is “Only One God”. Marty You keep saying this even though the scriptures say Jesus is God. They are One! I accept all the scriptures and you don't, that simple! But that is your right! WJ Hi WJ: The scriptures state that Jesus is God?  What scriptures state that he is God? Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Please don't feign ignorance. thinker Hi Thethinker: God has revealed to humanity that Jesus is the Son of the living God and His Christ(Matthew 16), and that he is the last Adam (1 Co. 15) and that he is the “express image” of God's person (Hebrews 1).  He said “he who has seen me has seen the Father”.  Is he the Father?  Or is he the Son who was obeying God's Word, and we see God manifest through the works that he was and does through obedience to the Father who is the “One and Only God”. Are they the same person? or is there a Father and a Son?  They are “One in the spirit”. It was the Word of God that Jesus obeyed, and is the Word of God that he watches over to perform as head of the church. Jesus also prays that we would be “one in the spirit with he and God”.  It is through the Word of God that we obey that we will be “one with them”. Quote John 17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me There is no scripture that literally states that Jesus is God.  There are some scriptures which you and others misinterpret to say that, but there are many other scriptures which plainly state that there is “One God”.  It is God that we are obeying from the head of the church to the tiniest pinky in the body of Christ.  The body of Christ is the Holy Temple of God. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,

Of course that Father and the Son are not the same person. But the son is the “exact representation of [the Father's] charakter.” I explained this in an earlier post today:

“In Hebrews 1 Christ is called the “exact representation of the Father's charakter.” This means that you cannot tell the one from the other. If you could to go to heaven and see the Father and the Son side by side you would not know which was which because Jesus is the “exact representation of the Father's charakter.”

Anti-trinitarians do not like to talk about the fact that Christ is the exact representation of the Father. They talk about Him only as a faint copy of God. But He is the exact representation of the Father and as such He corresponds to the Father in every detail and yet is a separate person. He is the exact counterpart of the Father.

Yes we will be conformed to Christ's glorious image. But Paul said that we will still be distinguishable as each star “differs in glory.” We will never be God's “exact counterpart” like Christ. In other words, we will be able to distinguish from each other but we will not be able to distinguish the Father from the Son.”

thinker

[942767]

Quote (thethinker @ April 15 2010,12:01)

Quote (942767 @ April 15 2010,11:54) Quote (thethinker @ April 15 2010,11:24) Quote (942767 @ April 15 2010,11:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2010,10:37) Quote (942767 @ April 14 2010,18:18) Hi WJ: The point is that there is “Only One God”. Marty You keep saying this even though the scriptures say Jesus is God. They are One! I accept all the scriptures and you don't, that simple! But that is your right! WJ Hi WJ: The scriptures state that Jesus is God?  What scriptures state that he is God? Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Please don't feign ignorance. thinker Hi Thethinker: God has revealed to humanity that Jesus is the Son of the living God and His Christ(Matthew 16), and that he is the last Adam (1 Co. 15) and that he is the “express image” of God's person (Hebrews 1).  He said “he who has seen me has seen the Father”.  Is he the Father?  Or is he the Son who was obeying God's Word, and we see God manifest through the works that he was and does through obedience to the Father who is the “One and Only God”. Are they the same person? or is there a Father and a Son?  They are “One in the spirit”. It was the Word of God that Jesus obeyed, and is the Word of God that he watches over to perform as head of the church. Jesus also prays that we would be “one in the spirit with he and God”.  It is through the Word of God that we obey that we will be “one with them”. Quote John 17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me There is no scripture that literally states that Jesus is God.  There are some scriptures which you and others misinterpret to say that, but there are many other scriptures which plainly state that there is “One God”.  It is God that we are obeying from the head of the church to the tiniest pinky in the body of Christ.  The body of Christ is the Holy Temple of God. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Of course that Father and the Son are not the same person. But the son is the “exact representation of [the Father's] charakter.” I explained this in an earlier post today: “In Hebrews 1 Christ is called the “exact representation of the Father's charakter.” This means that you cannot tell the one from the other. If you could to go to heaven and see the Father and the Son side by side you would not know which was which because Jesus is the “exact representation of the Father's charakter.” Anti-trinitarians do not like to talk about the fact that Christ is the exact representation of the Father. They talk about Him only as a faint copy of God. But He is the exact representation of the Father and as such He corresponds to the Father in every detail and yet is a separate person. He is the exact counterpart of the Father. Yes we will be conformed to Christ's glorious image. But Paul said that we will still be distinguishable as each star “differs in glory.” We will never be God's “exact counterpart” like Christ. In other words, we will be able to distinguish from each other but we will not be able to distinguish the Father from the Son.” thinker

Hi thethinker:

Yes, we have seen God's character manifest through the life of our Lord.  Of that there is not doubt.  God is a Spirit of Love, and that HE has shown His love for his creation through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ.

But it was God who intervened in behalf of humanity in giving us His Only Begotten Son to be the propitiation for our sins.  There is no other God but “This God”.  He is our Father and we are His children.  He is much, much more than His children.  He is above all, and over all, and in us all who are born of His Spirit.

Quote

1 John 3 1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[JustAskin]

TT,
What do you read in Revelation, which describes a vision of Heaven.

Does not Revelation describe Jesus And God.

Are they the same?
Jesus: Rev 1:13-16.
God: Rev 4:2-3

Even simpler, we have seen Jesus… But Noone [of mankind] has seen God.
Noone [of mankind] can see God['s face] and live.

Why can we not see God's face if we can see Jesus' face (On earth and in Heaven)?

TT, is there no end to your wiley ways?

You say that Jesus is the 'exact representation of God's character' and then claim that this makes Jesys God because we could not tell the difference between the teo of them. How wierd?
So, this must also be the same for the Holy Spirit, then.

So, two persons having the same 'character' means that although they are two seoarate persons, they are actually the same person.

Well, tell that to the wife of a twin that I know. Hmm…interchangeable husbands, or, twice the fun, maybe!

I just think you are meant to say they are united in purpose, as are the Apostles (1 Corinth 10:17 “For we, though MANY, are ONE…” I invented a new word for that: 'Manynity' pronounced 'meninity'. I'm working on the creed and doctrine…!)

Can't tell one Apostle from another… I just think that having the same characteristics, being the exact representation, meant to mean that they all speak the same doctrine, the doctrine of Christ, just as Jesus speaks the same as God speaks, yeah, exacts the very word of God, so the act that is done cannot be differentiated between them.
Jesus, the Perfect Servant(Matt 12:18, Isaiah 42:1)-Son of God.

[JustAskin]

TY,

Why do you strain at proving a unity of three, one of whom is God Amighty, and claim it as a Trinity of Gods without any Scriptural backing when it is clear that their unity is one of purpose, not one of 'bodily' union.
Jesus has a soul, seperate from the soul of God.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

God+Holy Spirit
Jesus+his own Spirit
Mankind+Spirit of man

[942767]

Hi:

Those of you who believe in pre-existence, please give me your understanding of how the portion of the following scripture that I highlighted in blue is so?

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Elizabeth]

Marty!  The Scripture is clear that Jesus came from Heaven where He was from the Beginning as the Word in John 1:1 and also in Rev. 19:13.  
John 6:38 “For I have come down from Heaven not to do my will but the will of Him who send Me…
We do know how God did it.  To me it makes sense because Jesus at age 12 went into the Temple and teach.  All that heard Him were surprised by His Wisdom….
I also think that Rev. 19:13 is a very good Scripture to clear up that He was the Word and that Word became flesh.  Then Jesus after His resurrection ask His Father to go back to what He was before the World was.  John 17:5.  That too goes along with Rev, 19:13.  
He is the firstborn of all creation in Rev. 3:14 and Col. 1:15-17.
In Col. 1:18 He tells us that He also was the firstborn of the death, so that in all He may have preeminence.  Meaning He was first in all.  Firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death. I think Jesus wants us to realize that He was a Spirit Being before the World was, that is why He said what He did. It might be confusion to you , but if you think about it a while and ask God to give you His understand of that, I know that He will. It was not easy for us either at first, but God did work with us. And if you ask Him, He will with you too…
John 3:17
John 8:58
John 1:15
Also if you go to Heaven Net they also have an article on this, That is where I found most of the Scriptures in John…..
Peace and Love Irene

[942767]

Quote (Elizabeth @ April 16 2010,10:59)

Marty!  The Scripture is clear that Jesus came from Heaven where He was from the Beginning as the Word in John 1:1 and also in Rev. 19:13.   John 6:38 “For I have come down from Heaven not to do my will but the will of Him who send Me… We do know how God did it.  To me it makes sense because Jesus at age 12 went into the Temple and teach.  All that heard Him were surprised by His Wisdom…. I also think that Rev. 19:13 is a very good Scripture to clear up that He was the Word and that Word became flesh.  Then Jesus after His resurrection ask His Father to go back to what He was before the World was.  John 17:5.  That too goes along with Rev, 19:13.   He is the firstborn of all creation in Rev. 3:14 and Col. 1:15-17. In Col. 1:18 He tells us that He also was the firstborn of the death, so that in all He may have preeminence.  Meaning He was first in all.  Firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death.  I think Jesus wants us to realize that He was a Spirit Being before the World was, that is why He said what He did.  It might be confusion to you , but if you think about it a while and ask God to give you His understand of that, I know that He will.  It was not easy for us either at first, but God did work with us.  And if you ask Him, He will with you too… John 3:17 John 8:58 John 1:15 Also if you go to Heaven Net they also have an article on this,  That is where I found most of the Scriptures in John….. Peace and Love Irene

Mrs.

We have already been through all of these scriptures. I know that Jesus came from heaven, he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and it was God in Christ speaking to humanity through him. It is this same Word of God that Jesus obeyed even unto death on the cross. This is the spirit of the Son that was with God in the beginning. He did not pre-exist as a sentient person. The spirit of Jesus, the spirit of the Son, existed with God in the beginning. This spirit, the Word of God came from heaven He knew that a a particular point in time he would have a Son, and so he existed in the heart of the Father, and God knew that Jesus would obey Him without sin even unto death on the cross.

That is the way that I understand the scriptures.

But the question that I asked for you to explain is how can he say that he is on earth and also still be in heaven.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

94

wich verse ;;But the question that I asked for you to explain is how can he say that he is on earth and also still be in heaven

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ April 16 2010,13:34)

94 wich verse ;;But the question that I asked for you to explain is how can he say that he is on earth and also still be in heaven

Hi T:

The following verse:

Quote

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ April 16 2010,09:21)

Hi: Those of you who believe in pre-existence, please give me your understanding of how the portion of the following scripture that I highlighted in blue is so? John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,even the Son of man which is in heaven. Love in Christ, Marty

94

this is very simple to answer ;John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Jn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

first your translation seems misleading,i put NIV. here you can understand it better.

of cause you can tell me that yours is right and not mine,ok

if so you will have to explain the next verse to me because it would not make sense with your version.JN3 14 jesus explain just as moses lift the snake so the son of man as to BE LIFTED UP not done yet,it is to come.

if you still maintain your view then you should explain this ones;; JN 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
JN 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
JN 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world

why would Jesus still talking about God having send his son down ,so if he is down he is not up, unless you want to say that Christ does not know what he is talking about and he is not consistent in his speech. to me it is translation no good,Christ right.

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ April 16 2010,15:56)

942767,April wrote: Hi: Those of you who believe in pre-existence, please give me your understanding of how the portion of the following scripture that I highlighted in blue is so? Quote John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,even the Son of man which is in heaven. Love in Christ, Marty 94 this is very simple to answer ;John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,even the Son of man which is in heaven. Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Jn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: first your translation seems misleading,i put NIV. here you can understand it better. of cause you can tell me that yours is right and not mine,ok if so you will have to explain the next verse to me because it would not make sense with your version.JN3 14 jesus explain just as moses lift the snake so the son of man as to BE LIFTED UP not done yet,it is to come. if you still maintain your view then you should explain this ones;; JN 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. JN 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. JN 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world why would Jesus still talking about God having send his son down ,so if he is down he is not up, unless you want to say that Christ does not know what he is talking about and he is not consistent in his speech. to me it is translation no good,Christ right.

Hi T:

I know what Jesus meant and the answer is in the following scriptures:

Quote

John 14:20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you

Quote

John 17:19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And so he is speaking of the Word of God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

94
you say;
And so he is speaking of the Word of God ;;;you mean the scriptures ?

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ April 16 2010,16:19)

94 you say; And so he is speaking of the Word of God ;;;you mean the scriptures ?

Hi T:

Yes, the scriptures.

Quote

31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

Quote

John 6:58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Quote

John 6:62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

Quote

Hebrews 1 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Love in Christ,
Marty

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