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Quote (942767 @ Mar. 15 2010,18:33) Quote Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;And we know that his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.
And so, how much clearer does this have to be?
MartyHath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, “BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS”; Heb 1:2
Then the writer of the book clarifies it later in the chapter when he writes…
“And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands“: Heb 1:10
The Father is giving Jesus credit for creating all things as John 1:3 also tells us!
How clear is that?
Blessings WJ
The problem I can see here is that one side knows the Trinity Doctrine is wrong and the other knows that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and that God created everything through him.
So instead of accepting both as truth, i.e., that The Trinity Doctrine is not the truth and that Jesus was with the Father before he emptied himself, the 2 groups spar over each others errors.
How do men make such obvious mistakes like this? Is this pride in action or what?
I myself just prefer to believe that God is not a Trinity because it is not written, taught, or inferred. I also believe that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and that God created all through him because it is written.
I don't see both as contradictory, but as truth. Do I hear an amen?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2010,10:03) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 15 2010,16:53) WJ, Scripture DIRECTLY states that the Son of Man came down.
JodiSo what is your point?
If I say that “the President of the USA came down from Illinois”, is that not a true statement?
If I say “the President of the USA went to law school long before he became President” is that not a true statement?
You deny the Greek text which clearly states that Jesus did the descending just like the Angel and the Holy Spirit.
Same language but you say his statement means something else!
Wrong! As Gene says trash your manmade doctrine and accept what the scriptures says about our Lord not being of this world!
Blessings WJ
Keith,
Jesus said that He is the bread that “came down from heaven” in the sense that the manna which Moses gave “came down from heaven” (John 6:33-59).Your case is air tight my buddy.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 16 2010,15:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2010,10:03) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 15 2010,16:53) WJ, Scripture DIRECTLY states that the Son of Man came down.
JodiSo what is your point?
If I say that “the President of the USA came down from Illinois”, is that not a true statement?
If I say “the President of the USA went to law school long before he became President” is that not a true statement?
You deny the Greek text which clearly states that Jesus did the descending just like the Angel and the Holy Spirit.
Same language but you say his statement means something else!
Wrong! As Gene says trash your manmade doctrine and accept what the scriptures says about our Lord not being of this world!
Blessings WJ
Keith,
Jesus said that He is the bread that “came down from heaven” in the sense that the manna which Moses gave “came down from heaven” (John 6:33-59).Your case is air tight my buddy.
thinker
You do not understand Jesus' teaching did you?Do you think Jesus is speaking of himself when he tells the Samaratan woman he has water for her that will quench her thirst to the point she will need no other?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:38) The problem I can see here is that one side knows the Trinity Doctrine is wrong and the other knows that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and that God created everything through him. So instead of accepting both as truth, i.e., that The Trinity Doctrine is not the truth and that Jesus was with the Father before he emptied himself, the 2 groups spar over each others errors.
How do men make such obvious mistakes like this? Is this pride in action or what?
I myself just prefer to believe that God is not a Trinity because it is not written, taught, or inferred. I also believe that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and that God created all through him because it is written.
I don't see both as contradictory, but as truth. Do I hear an amen?
Hmmmm…. According to the Exodus 3 narrative it was the MESSENGER of Jehovah who called Himself “I am that I am.” Then in John 8 Jesus called Himself “I am.”Yet t8 says that the trinity doctrine is not even inferred. Why is it that Jehovah Himself (as t8 defines Him) never said of Himself “I am?” It was His Messenger who said it of Himself and Jesus of Himself. Ergo, Jesus was the Messenger who called Himself “I am.”
I think t8 needs to scratch all he believes and start all over again as a new born babe.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 16 2010,21:01) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:38) The problem I can see here is that one side knows the Trinity Doctrine is wrong and the other knows that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and that God created everything through him. So instead of accepting both as truth, i.e., that The Trinity Doctrine is not the truth and that Jesus was with the Father before he emptied himself, the 2 groups spar over each others errors.
How do men make such obvious mistakes like this? Is this pride in action or what?
I myself just prefer to believe that God is not a Trinity because it is not written, taught, or inferred. I also believe that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and that God created all through him because it is written.
I don't see both as contradictory, but as truth. Do I hear an amen?
Hmmmm…. According to the Exodus 3 narrative it was the MESSENGER of Jehovah who called Himself “I am that I am.” Then in John 8 Jesus called Himself “I am.”Yet t8 says that the trinity doctrine is not even inferred. Why is it that Jehovah Himself (as t8 defines Him) never said of Himself “I am?” It was His Messenger who said it of Himself and Jesus of Himself. Ergo, Jesus was the Messenger who called Himself “I am.”
I think t8 needs to scratch all he believes and start all over again as a new born babe.
thinker
TTyou forgot someone in your reference;Ex 3:4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”
And Moses said, “Here I am.”Moses called himself I AM.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2010,04:55) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 16 2010,15:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2010,10:03) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 15 2010,16:53) WJ, Scripture DIRECTLY states that the Son of Man came down.
JodiSo what is your point?
If I say that “the President of the USA came down from Illinois”, is that not a true statement?
If I say “the President of the USA went to law school long before he became President” is that not a true statement?
You deny the Greek text which clearly states that Jesus did the descending just like the Angel and the Holy Spirit.
Same language but you say his statement means something else!
Wrong! As Gene says trash your manmade doctrine and accept what the scriptures says about our Lord not being of this world!
Blessings WJ
Keith,
Jesus said that He is the bread that “came down from heaven” in the sense that the manna which Moses gave “came down from heaven” (John 6:33-59).Your case is air tight my buddy.
thinker
You do not understand Jesus' teaching did you?Do you think Jesus is speaking of himself when he tells the Samaratan woman he has water for her that will quench her thirst to the point she will need no other?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2010,04:55) Do you think Jesus is speaking of himself when he tells the Samaratan woman he has water for her that will quench her thirst to the point she will need no other?
KerwinIt seems that you do not understand his teaching and are inferring again.
Jesus didn't say he was the water! He said he would give us the living water….
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; “but the water that I shall give him” shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. John 4:14
But Jesus did say that he is the “Bread that came down from heaven that if any man shall eat of he shall live”!
Who is the “Word of Life” that came down from heaven? 1 John 1:1-3
Big difference don't you think?
Blessings WJ
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2010,02:38) The problem I can see here is that one side knows the Trinity Doctrine is wrong and the other knows that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and that God created everything through him.
So instead of accepting both as truth, i.e., that The Trinity Doctrine is not the truth and that Jesus was with the Father before he emptied himself, the 2 groups spar over each others errors.
How do men make such obvious mistakes like this? Is this pride in action or what?
I myself just prefer to believe that God is not a Trinity because it is not written, taught, or inferred. I also believe that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and that God created all through him because it is written.
I don't see both as contradictory, but as truth. Do I hear an amen?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2010,02:38) How do men make such obvious mistakes like this? Is this pride in action or what?
t8No offence, but why is it that if someone does not believe as you do then it is always an issue of pride.
You haven't changed your views ever on this sight that I know of. Should we say that is proof of your own pride?
Could it be that they believe that if Jesus preexisted that would mean that he was more than just a man?
Why do you criticize them for not accepting your demi-god view of Jesus by calling them proud?
Because if Jesus is not the “True God” and yet is more than human then he is some sort of demi-god!
So no they do not see the two “not believing in the Trinity” and “Jesus sharing Glory with the Father before the world began” as being uncontradictory truth!
No Amens for you!
WJ
I would like someone to give me an example in the OT where Jesus is speaking as the word of God?
Acts 1:16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.
Before Jesus and after Jesus, it was and is God's Holy Spirit that gives men the word of God.
The word of God is NOT a person as I have said before. The word of God is God's own words, and He gives them TO MEN THROUGH His Holy Spirit.
Does it make sense that the person who people say exists as the word of God, literally came down from heaven but then needed the Holy Spirit descend upon him to be able to speak the words of God?
I have yet to be told WHAT exactly came down from heaven that became the embryo in Jesus, who is flesh and nothing else or else he is antichrist.
When Jesus was speaking as the MAN declared to be in the flesh, tempted just as we are yet without sin, what was he refer to as in “I” came down from heaven?
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
The person carrying out God's will was the man who was fulfilling prophecy spoken to the prophets through the Holy Spirit in the OT was he not? The person carrying out God's will is the human who came out of Mary's womb made of the seed of David, was he not? Scripture states that the Son of Man came down from heaven. If Jesus was not the promise made in the heavens before time began, that came down. Then WHO was this Jesus that came down and performed God's WILL? It was not a MAN born of the seed of David, having the Spirit of God upon him, performing God's will?
I get the feeling I am going to get a YES and NO answer on this, with complete insufficient scriptural support.
Did or did not, the God from heaven promise to send a MAN that would carry out His will?
Did or did not, a MAN on earth carry out God's will?
Did or did not, THE MAN Jesus that was of the seed of David come to us as a fulfillment out of Heaven?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 16 2010,12:08) I have yet to be told WHAT exactly came down from heaven that became the embryo in Jesus, who is flesh and nothing else or else he is antichrist. When Jesus was speaking as the MAN declared to be in the flesh, tempted just as we are yet without sin, what was he refer to as in “I” came down from heaven?
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
JodiIt is right in front of you! Who is the “I“?
Surely you are not going to tell us he is the spoken word of God!
If so then why did Jesus say “I” came down rather than the Word of God came down, or the plan of God came down!
Why do you keep ignoring the point that a plan or a word does not act on its own?
Who did John call the “Word of life” Jodi? 1 John 1:1-3
Make up your mind, out of one side of your mouth you are saying he is not the word of God then out of the other side you are saying he is the word of God that came down from heaven!
Blessings WJ
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 16 2010,12:08) Did or did not, the God from heaven promise to send a MAN that would carry out His will? Did or did not, a MAN on earth carry out God's will?
JodiDid or did not Jesus “empty himself ” and take on “the likeness of sinfull flesh and was found in fashion as a man“? Phil 2:6-8
Can you empty yourself and take on the “likeness of sinfull flesh” and be found in fashion as a woman? Or were you already born that way?
WJ
John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
The MAN in the flesh, Jesus the Christ, proceeded forth and came from God. In other words, the MAN came FROM heaven having come from God!! And God MADE Jesus out of a promise that he would be of the seed of David, He did not make Jesus out of morphing his God counterpart, or taking his immortal spirit being son, into the seed of David.
Jesus did not send himself out into the world to preach the gospel to heal the sick and to die for us on the cross. The ONE TRUE God did. This completely excludes Jesus from being the ONE True God. Anyone care to explain how it does not?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 16 2010,12:43) John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
JodiDon't you get it? John didn't say that those who do not confess “that Jesus is a mere man is a deciever“, but says that those who do not confess that “Jesus has come in the flesh“!
John wrote “And the Word was made flesh“. John 1:14
What Word? The “Word of Life” that John says was with the Father. John 1:1 and 1 John 1:1-3
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 17 2010,05:07) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 16 2010,12:43) John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
JodiDon't you get it? John didn't say that those who do not confess “that Jesus is a mere man is a deciever“, but says that those who do not confess that “Jesus has come in the flesh“!
John wrote “And the Word was made flesh“. John 1:14
What Word? The “Word of Life” that John says was with the Father. John 1:1 and 1 John 1:1-3
Blessings WJ
The WORD of LIFE WJ, was held in the PROMISE of a coming MAN dying for your sins. That MAN, that was in the word of God given to the prophets BY the Holy Spirit as a promise to come, became a fulfilled promise in the MAN of flesh named Jesus who was born of Mary with the seed of David.Listen to yourself your teaching that the word of life is about some God becoming a man. It is ABOUT a fulfilled promise of a MAN that would die on the cross and be a savior.
The WORD that was with the Father,
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that He has promised us–eternal life.
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Acts 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–
The promise of eternal life was in the beginning, and this promise was WITH the Father as He caused all of history from that point to unfold through that promise, for it was this promise that was with Him in creating heaven and earth, and it was this promise that was with Him when He saved Noah, and it was this promise that was with Him when He spoke to Abraham and to David, and so on and so forth, and this promise IS the Father for He is Eternal and it is through His Spirit He is able to give Eternal Life.
The fulfillment of Eternal Life existed in the MAN Jesus, whom was also a promise made before time began. The promise of Eternal Life was made FLESH in Jesus!!
Once again I will ask,
Could someone please give me one example of JESUS speaking as the word of God in the Old Testament?
Jesus was clearly IN the word of God in the OT, given through God's Holy Spirit to the prophets, but I don't see a PERSON of the NAME Jesus speaking unto man in the Old Testament.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 16 2010,14:16) The WORD of LIFE WJ, was held in the PROMISE of a coming MAN dying for your sins.
No Jodi.Even if you do not believe John 1:1 “THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD”
John writes that Jesus is the “Word of life” that was “with the Father“, 1 John 1:1-3 and he also tells us of Jesus having the name “The Word of God”, Rev 19:13 and he records Jesus saying “I am the bread that came down from heaven and I am going back to where I came from John 6:38, 62, not the plan or prophesies or spoken word of God came down from heaven and is going back to where it came from.
Listen to yourself turning Jesus into a plan and insulting him by denying his very own testimony that “HE” was from above!
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; **I AM FROM ABOVE** (NOT I AM GODS PLAN FROM ABOVE): ye are of this world; **I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD**. John 8:23
AT Robertson…
I am from above (egw ek twn anw eimi).
The contrast is COMPLET IN ORIGIN AND CHARACTER, already stated in (John) 3:31, and calculated to intensify their anger.“HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all: “he that is of the earth is earthly“, and speaketh of the earth: “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all. John 3:31
Of course this infuriated his enemys!
WJ
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 16 2010,15:02) The WORD that was with the Father, 1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that He has promised us–eternal life.
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Acts 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–
The promise of eternal life was in the beginning, and this promise was WITH the Father as He caused all of history from that point to unfold through that promise, for it was this promise that was with Him in creating heaven and earth, and it was this promise that was with Him when He saved Noah, and it was this promise that was with Him when He spoke to Abraham and to David, and so on and so forth, and this promise IS the Father for He is Eternal and it is through His Spirit He is able to give Eternal Life.
The fulfillment of Eternal Life existed in the MAN Jesus, whom was also a promise made before time began. The promise of Eternal Life was made FLESH in Jesus!!
Once again I will ask,
Could someone please give me one example of JESUS speaking as the word of God in the Old Testament?
Jesus was clearly IN the word of God in the OT, given through God's Holy Spirit to the prophets, but I don't see a PERSON of the NAME Jesus speaking unto man in the Old Testament.
JodiWhy do you need the OT, is Jesus own words clear enough for you? There were many things in the OT that was not revealed until the appointed time!
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; **I AM FROM ABOVE** (NOT I AM GODS PLAN FROM ABOVE): ye are of this world; **I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD**. John 8:23
AT Robertson states…
I am from above (egw ek twn anw eimi).
The contrast is COMPLET IN ORIGIN AND CHARACTER, already stated in (John) 3:31, and calculated to intensify their anger.“HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all: “he that is of the earth is earthly“, and speaketh of the earth: “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all. John 3:31
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:38) The problem I can see here is that one side knows the Trinity Doctrine is wrong and the other knows that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and that God created everything through him. So instead of accepting both as truth, i.e., that The Trinity Doctrine is not the truth and that Jesus was with the Father before he emptied himself, the 2 groups spar over each others errors.
How do men make such obvious mistakes like this? Is this pride in action or what?
I myself just prefer to believe that God is not a Trinity because it is not written, taught, or inferred. I also believe that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and that God created all through him because it is written.
I don't see both as contradictory, but as truth. Do I hear an amen?
Hi t8:Neither is it written that Jesus pre-existed, and the scripture warns about adding or taking away from the Word of God.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 17 2010,03:22) No offence, but why is it that if someone does not believe as you do then it is always an issue of pride.
That is the wrong way to look at it.Trinity is not written and Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began is written. I accept this, so I am complying. I am not coming up with a new teaching or something of my own. Just agreeing to that which is written and disagreeing with that which is not.
Yes I think it is an issue with pride that men stick to their beliefs no matter what scripture says. How else is this explained?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 17 2010,05:07) Jodi Don't you get it? John didn't say that those who do not confess “that Jesus is a mere man is a deciever”, but says that those who do not confess that “Jesus has come in the flesh”!
John wrote “And the Word was made flesh”. John 1:14
What Word? The “Word of Life” that John says was with the Father. John 1:1 and 1 John 1:1-3
Blessings WJ
Wow WJ. What a great post. I concur wholeheartedly.
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