Preexistence

[Proclaimer]

Three questions logoslogic.

1) Who is the literal firstborn of all creation? NOTE: the world literal.
2) What was the very first work of God?
3) What did Jesus empty himself of before coming as a man?

Look forward to your answers.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (logoslogic @ Mar. 14 2010,19:24)

“In the beginning [and throughout O.T. time] was the WORD [of God], and the WORD [of God) was with God, and the WORD [of God] was God” [not A God but THE God] (John 1:1).

That is incorrect logoslogic.

The last word for 'theos' doesn't have an article or a definite article. Therefore there is no THE or A God. It is the only instance where the word God in John 1:1 where the word God is not associated with an article.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (logoslogic @ Mar. 14 2010,19:24)

The subject of this topic is “pre-existence” Clearly, we are confronted with two different Jesus’. One who pre-existed his birth and another who did not. One is the true Christ, the other is an antichrist. This is obviously a most important question to pursue since only the true Christ can save us from the penalty of death. “In the beginning [and throughout O.T. time] was the WORD [of God], and the WORD [of God) was with God, and the WORD [of God] was God” [not A God but THE God] (John 1:1). Then, in N.T. time (John 1:14) IT the Word of God became flesh, became HE the Son of God, named Jesus by God Almighty, His Father. 1 Cor. 15:45 says: “Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’, the last Adam became a life-giving spirit (notice, He BECAME not WAS a life-giving spirit). Vs 46 “But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.” The true Jesus became first physical and then spiritual according to scripture. The false Jesus was first spiritual, then became physical, and then spiritual again (according to mythology). Romans 1:19-20 tells us that: “For what can be known about God is plain (is not a mystery) to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power (Holy Spirit) and deity has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they (you) are without excuse.” There is no such thing as “preexistence” in the created order. The idea of pre-existence comes to us from the third century Roman Catholic mystery Trinity doctrine that claims that the second person of the trinity – Jesus, existed from all eternity. Therefore, my Jesus is the one who came into being when He was BEGOTTEN of God and BORN of Mary 2000 years ago. Jesus came to show us the way by being our example in all things. If Jesus would have pre-existed His own birth, I should have existed before I was born, but I did not. Did you? I hope not! For more on this subject visit: http://www.logoslogic.info

Even your first statement is wrong. There is only one Jesus. Jesus came from Heaven by His own words in
John 6:38-40 “For I have come from Heaven not to do My will, but the will of Him who send Me.”
verse 39 “This is the will of the Father who send Me, that all He has given Me I should not lose nothing, but should raise Him up at the last day.”
verse 40″And this is the will who send Me, that everyoonewho sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise Him up on the last day.”
Read that article agin from t8 who is the Adminastrador here. He is right in what He says…..
Irene

[942767]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,16:11)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 13 2010,09:48) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,13:52) Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14 That would mean the Word was transformed to flesh, human body.  I am going to say taking it literally is a mistake but perhaps I am wrong and The word of God was transformed to a human body. But, the scripture states that Jesus body was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and so, what can “the Word was made flesh” mean? Love in Christ, Marty God spoke and it came to be.  His word was made “heaven and earth” as well because when he spoke they came to be.

Hi Kerwin:

The Prophetic Word of God became a reality or became flesh?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 13 2010,16:42)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 13 2010,14:48) Marty Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,13:52) Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14 That would mean the Word was transformed to flesh, human body.  I am going to say taking it literally is a mistake but perhaps I am wrong and The word of God was transformed to a human body. But, the scripture states that Jesus body was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and so, what can “the Word was made flesh” mean? Love in Christ, Marty kerwin & Marty.     My  understanding of what “the Word was made flesh” means, is that Gods Word was previously the “written Word”, and now, through Jesus, it would become the “spoken Word”.   I would think the common opinion is that in John1:1, that the word “Word” (meaning Jesus) was God, I believe that to be incorrect.   This is the way it is written in the 'Concordant version', a literal translation… 1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. 2 This was in the beginning toward God.   Just my opinion, what do you think? Blessings,  Jerry.

Hi Jerry:

I believe that we are basically saying the same thing. The prophetic Word of God became a reality or became flesh, and as for what you say Jesus became the “spoken Word”, this is what the scriptures state:

Quote

Hebrews 1 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Love in Christ,
Marty

[kerwin]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 15 2010,03:52)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,16:11) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 13 2010,09:48) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,13:52) Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14 That would mean the Word was transformed to flesh, human body.  I am going to say taking it literally is a mistake but perhaps I am wrong and The word of God was transformed to a human body. But, the scripture states that Jesus body was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and so, what can “the Word was made flesh” mean? Love in Christ, Marty God spoke and it came to be.  His word was made “heaven and earth” as well because when he spoke they came to be. Hi Kerwin: The Prophetic Word of God became a reality or became flesh? Love in Christ, Marty

In this case I do not believe there is a difference.  God said let the Messiah be and the Messiah was and thus fulfilled the plans he had from the beginning as well as created a flesh, human, Messiah.

[942767]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2010,09:05)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 15 2010,03:52) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,16:11) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 13 2010,09:48) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,13:52) Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14 That would mean the Word was transformed to flesh, human body.  I am going to say taking it literally is a mistake but perhaps I am wrong and The word of God was transformed to a human body. But, the scripture states that Jesus body was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and so, what can “the Word was made flesh” mean? Love in Christ, Marty God spoke and it came to be.  His word was made “heaven and earth” as well because when he spoke they came to be. Hi Kerwin: The Prophetic Word of God became a reality or became flesh? Love in Christ, Marty In this case I do not believe there is a difference.  God said let the Messiah be and the Messiah was and thus fulfilled the plans he had from the beginning as well as created a flesh, human, Messiah.

Hi Kerwin:

You say: “as well as a created, flesh, human Messiah”.  I am not sure that the term “created” is correct.  He was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and formed in the womb of the virgin Mary.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[chosenone]

Hi Marty.
We seem to agree, that's a good reference, Heb.1:1-2, it does make this clear. Thanks for your input.

Jerry.

[kerwin]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 15 2010,04:15)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2010,09:05) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 15 2010,03:52) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,16:11) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 13 2010,09:48) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,13:52) Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14 That would mean the Word was transformed to flesh, human body.  I am going to say taking it literally is a mistake but perhaps I am wrong and The word of God was transformed to a human body. But, the scripture states that Jesus body was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and so, what can “the Word was made flesh” mean? Love in Christ, Marty God spoke and it came to be.  His word was made “heaven and earth” as well because when he spoke they came to be. Hi Kerwin: The Prophetic Word of God became a reality or became flesh? Love in Christ, Marty In this case I do not believe there is a difference.  God said let the Messiah be and the Messiah was and thus fulfilled the plans he had from the beginning as well as created a flesh, human, Messiah. Hi Kerwin: You say: “as well as a created, flesh, human Messiah”.  I am not sure that the term “created” is correct.  He was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and formed in the womb of the virgin Mary. Love in Christ, Marty

Maybe is just my way of looking at the situation but I believe all human beings are created by God and conception is just his way of creating each of us instead of directly shaping us from the earth and breathing life into us.

[Jodi Lee]

We can all agree that the infant named Jesus came out of Mary's womb, he did not fall down from the sky, or a stork did not fly down from heaven and deliver him.

The Holy Spirit came down and caused Mary to be with child.

Matthew 1:22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:  23  “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,”  which is translated, “God with us.”

The pregnancy of Mary CAME from heaven a promise made by God.  

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Acts 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–

The human savior was promised to one day come, and come from the seed of David, and this would all occur from the power of God out of heaven.  

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

We are told directly that the Son of MAN came down from heaven, not that some immortal creature came down from heaven. We are also told that it is the Son of Man that is in heaven NOW with the Father, not that the Son of Man was changed into something he was before as he ascended into heaven after he was resurrected with flesh and bones.

God produced for Israel a savior which was to come from the seed of David, and this was a promise we are told that existed before time began. Now if anyone wants to specifically show what I am stating here as being false, LET”S SEE IT! BRING IT ON!!

Jesus said that “he” came down from heaven, “he” being the MAN born of the seed of David, NOT “he” being some immortal spirit creature. John 3:13 is the FIRST verse we see in the bible that speaks of Jesus coming down from heaven, and what it says  is the “Son of Man”, which was not an immortal creature, but a promise that existed before time began.

Here is the second instance in scripture where it speaks of “coming down from heaven”

John 6:32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.  33  For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”  

The Father gives us the bread from heaven and what He is giving us is specifically shown to be the fulfillment of His promises, NOT a literal being morphing himself into Mary’s womb, but the MAN He promised to one day send.

WHO gives LIFE to the world? A pre-existent immortal creature?

WHO was promised before time began to give life to the world? A pre-existent immortal creature?

From WHO”S seed would the savior come from? A pre-existent immortal creature’s? No, Jesus did not come from his own seed of some other creature, but from David's seed.

John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
When Jesus says “I” have come down from heaven is he speaking AS an immortal spirit son of God? NO, he is speaking as the MAN  who’d be shedding his blood on the cross and becoming the living bread, giving salvation to mankind.

When the New Testament speaks about Jesus fulfilling the word of God from the Old Testament that was given to the prophets, is there ever a mention of an immortal spirit son? Was THERE EVER a PROPHECY by a prophet coming from GOD”S word that spoke of a spirit son coming to morph into Jesus? NO, and neither was there a spirit being from heaven that spoke in the OT saying that he would come down and transform into a human being.  That is all conjecture!!

WHAT WERE the ACTUAL PROPHECIES? Shall we JUST IGNORE THOSE and focus on our OWN conjectures?

Other then John 3:13, all scriptures that speak of Jesus coming down from heaven are from John 6,

John 6:41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”

John 6:42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?”

John 6:50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

John 6:58 This is the bread which came down from heaven–not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

What part of the bread that came down from heaven is described as an immortal spirit creature? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!  

The bread is described as the flesh of Jesus.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent……….. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

Did Jesus SEND people down from heaven AS God sent his immortal son down from heaven? That which went out into the world that God sent was an immortal spirit being? The scripture specifically states that God sent the CHRIST.

So amazing to me how people will continue to read a scripture how they want to instead of looking at how the bible defines it’s meaning.

After Jesus received his ANOINTING, he went right to the wilderness to be tempted, and after he succeeded he was then SENT out into the world to fulfill God’s promises.

Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;

There exists NO scripture of SENDING an immortal spirit son down from heaven. The MAN who was anointed with God’s Spirit at the river Jordon was SENT out into the world.

Hebrews 7:26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

This is what KILLS me, the doctrine of pre-existence seems to focus on the perfection of a pre-existent son and how Jesus goes BACK to this person of perfection. This is TRUE ANTICHRIST, and t
he above scripture should truly reveal that if anyone has eyes to see and ears to hear. The PERSON who has reached PERFECTION FOREVER is the MAN Jesus, and he reached that perfection NOT for being a pre-existent being but for being IN THE FLESH and being PERFECTED IN the FLESH through God’s Spirit. God’s Spirit was able to perfect the mind of man conquering the power of man’s weak flesh that was weak on the account of death’s dominion over it. This perfection was not done just to fulfill a promise from the OT, and then Jesus would go back into what he was before.  The promise itself was made because that was the whole point of what God wanted to accomplish since before time began, create a heavenly MAN, a creature of created by God that could exist in the image of Himself, having His righteous character.  

Jesus HAS BEEN perfected forever!! NEVER WAS he PERFECTED BEFORE. And it is because of THAT perfection that Jesus sits at the right hand of God, and it is because of THAT perfection he is head over all of creation having been the younger now SET BEFORE all others having received all the rights of firstborn.

He was MADE master and Christ, he did not exist as such before and GO BACK to that position. That POSITION CAME out of what God accomplished in the human man Jesus.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

WHO is our master appointed by God, and who is our example and brother? Shall we spend our thoughts imagining how God perfected the creature who became Jesus, that Jesus went back to being? If God desired for us to be like him, why all this human business, why not just make us like him in the first place? Not only can I not find scriptural evidence for this creature, but there is no sense in the idea of him in the first place.  

OUR master, example and brother, is not some pre-existent creature that Jesus went back to, our master is what God MADE out of the MAN Jesus, which was a PERFECTED man IN the FLESH. This was not a perfection that only lasted for a moment between the time Jesus rose and ascended to heaven it was a PERFECTION FOREVER, a perfection of the human mind that deserved flesh that would not see corruption but be changed into immortal flesh!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 12 2010,23:12)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,11:32) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,18:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,09:46) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,14:02) The BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN is DIRECTLY said to be the FLESH of Jesus Jesus flesh didn't come down from heaven and Jesus never said such! He said… John 6:38-40 For “I have come down from heaven“… But you say his literal “flesh and blood” came down from heaven! This is why many left him because they thought he was speaking of his own body and blood! Jesus is the “Word of life” that was with the Father and came down from heaven. 1 John 1:1-3. The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14 WJ John 6:50  This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.  51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” There you have it the bread that came down from heaven Jesus says is his flesh. You seem to clearly deny this WJ, and I'd imagine then that you would have no clue as to what Jesus meant by it. How is it that our sins are forgiven, and that we can obtain eternal life? Is it because some “living piece of bread came down from heaven” and shrunk himself into Mary's womb? or is it because Jesus took his Righteous FLESH to the cross and bore our sins, a plan that CAME DOWN from the God of heaven of which He established before time began? Jodi Are you Catholic and believe in the Eucharist? Have you eaten his literal flesh and drank his literal blood? Because Jesus said unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you. John 6:53 Jesus uses his flesh and blood as an allegory to eating his word and drinking his Spirit. Don't you get it. He is the “Word of Life” that was with the Father and he gives us the definition of what it means to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood… And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: “he that cometh to me shall never hunger“; and “he that believeth on me shall never thirst“. John 6:35 Do you see it Jodi? Coming to Jesus at “his command” (his words) is eating his flesh. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but “by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God“. Matt 4:4 The Word of God is liken to bread here! Who is the “Word of life”? 1 John 1:1-3 Jesus also said that believing in him was the same as drinking of his own blood (the life of the flesh is in the blood)! And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, “and believeth on him, may have everlasting life“: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40 But you still insist that Jesus literal flesh and blood came down from heaven. So Mary’s womb must have been heaven!   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning “the Word of life“. *THE LIFE APPEARED*; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you “the eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER” and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And “our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-3 The Word became flesh and “made his dwelling (Greek – tabernacled) among us“. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and “they will call him Immanuel”*–which means, “God with us.” Matt 1:23 Trinitarians are fulfilling this scripture by calling him “Immanuel”! Because we say he is “God with us”! Blessings WJ Hi WJ: And so, you acknowledge that Jesus was not speaking of literally eating his flesh, but he was indicating it was through the words that he was speaking that they and we can have eternal life.  Is that what you are saying? Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

Yes! Did I or Jesus mean cannabolism!

That still does not explain away the fact the “He” -“The Word of life”, John 1:1-3 came down from heaven and “He” – “The Word of life” is going back to where 'He the Word of lfe” was!

Do you think that John did not understand this truth when he wrote John 1:1, 14 – 1 John 1:1-3 – Revelation 19:13 – John 6:62 – John 17:5.

You guys continue to ignore the Greek Grammar and how it cannot be interpreted as a “plan that was with God that came down from heaven”, because as I have shown the Greek tenses show Jesus as doing the action like the Angel and the Holy Spirit who also “Descended” (katabainō) from Heaven!

A plan does not act on its own!

But hang on to your belief if you like Marty!

But it is not scriptural to say Jesus did not come down from heaven and that he was of this world!

Blessings WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2010,21:43)

Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote No, but you are implying that they did not know what they were saying when they were inspired to write the text! If your implication is true then how can we truly know what any of the scriptures mean? The writers of scripture knew what they were saying but the language they were using was not made to voice their ideas.   Another way of putting it is they were trying to express ideas from a monotheistic religion into a language developed to express polytheistic ideas.   There is probably more differences than that but that one is a major issue. We would probably still be OK if we had them here to clarify the issues that we misunderstand.  As it is we have to piece it together from what little we have of their words without being influenced by false ideas gained in various ways.

Kerwin

I see. So it is left up to us to “privately interpret” the scriptures? (1 Peter 1:20, 21)

What happened to the Holy Spirit guideing and leading us into all truth?

And also how can you make such bold claims against certain Ideas and interpretations on this board, as I have seen you do many times, since you believe it is a matter of piecing things together?

Blessings WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2010,21:43)

The writers of scripture knew what they were saying but the language they were using was not made to voice their ideas.

Kewin

This makes no sense at all. You are saying that they could not convey “Monotheism” in Greek!

Does it make sense to you that they would be inspired to write something they could not convey!

Blessings WJ

[Jodi Lee]

WJ,

Scripture DIRECTLY states that the Son of Man came down.

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Aren't you saying that it was God that came down?

Also scripture states that Jesus Christ was sent.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Aren't you saying however that God was sent to be Jesus? That's not what scripture actually says though is it? The Only True God sent Jesus and Jesus CLEARLY states that he did not send himself but the Father sent him. Does that not blatantly tell us that Jesus is not the One True God? AND as well, God's name was never Jesus Christ, Jesus was the name given to the boy born of Mary and afterward God MADE him Christ. So it would be absurd to say that something not yet made was literally able to come down from heaven wouldn't it be?

1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

WJ, aren't you saying that Jesus Christ CAME out of heaven and was God from heaven?

Luke 18:31Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.

Seriously here people, could not the WORD made flesh be made more obvious?

How many times did the Father speak to the prophets about the Son of Man? When did the promise of the Son of MAN become to be not a promise but finally come to exist in the flesh?  

It was the Son of Man that we are told specifically came down from heaven. The Son of MAN was a promise from God a promise from heaven, not God, or a spirit son of God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 15 2010,16:53)

WJ, Scripture DIRECTLY states that the Son of Man came down.

Jodi

So what is your point?

If I say that “the President of the USA came down from Illinois”, is that not a true statement?

If I say “the President of the USA went to law school long before he became President” is that not a true statement?

You deny the Greek text which clearly states that Jesus did the descending just like the Angel and the Holy Spirit.

Same language but you say his statement means something else!

Wrong! As Gene says trash your manmade doctrine and accept what the scriptures says about our Lord not being of this world!

Blessings WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 15 2010,16:53)

WJ, aren't you saying that Jesus Christ CAME out of heaven and was God from heaven?

Jodi

No, that is what the scriptures say…

John 1:1, 14 – 1 John 1:1-3 – Rev 19:13 – John 6:62 – Phil 2:6-8

Blessings WJ

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2010,08:01)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 12 2010,23:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,11:32) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,18:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,09:46) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,14:02) The BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN is DIRECTLY said to be the FLESH of Jesus Jesus flesh didn't come down from heaven and Jesus never said such! He said… John 6:38-40 For “I have come down from heaven“… But you say his literal “flesh and blood” came down from heaven! This is why many left him because they thought he was speaking of his own body and blood! Jesus is the “Word of life” that was with the Father and came down from heaven. 1 John 1:1-3. The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14 WJ John 6:50  This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.  51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” There you have it the bread that came down from heaven Jesus says is his flesh. You seem to clearly deny this WJ, and I'd imagine then that you would have no clue as to what Jesus meant by it. How is it that our sins are forgiven, and that we can obtain eternal life? Is it because some “living piece of bread came down from heaven” and shrunk himself into Mary's womb? or is it because Jesus took his Righteous FLESH to the cross and bore our sins, a plan that CAME DOWN from the God of heaven of which He established before time began? Jodi Are you Catholic and believe in the Eucharist? Have you eaten his literal flesh and drank his literal blood? Because Jesus said unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you. John 6:53 Jesus uses his flesh and blood as an allegory to eating his word and drinking his Spirit. Don't you get it. He is the “Word of Life” that was with the Father and he gives us the definition of what it means to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood… And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: “he that cometh to me shall never hunger“; and “he that believeth on me shall never thirst“. John 6:35 Do you see it Jodi? Coming to Jesus at “his command” (his words) is eating his flesh. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but “by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God“. Matt 4:4 The Word of God is liken to bread here! Who is the “Word of life”? 1 John 1:1-3 Jesus also said that believing in him was the same as drinking of his own blood (the life of the flesh is in the blood)! And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, “and believeth on him, may have everlasting life“: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40 But you still insist that Jesus literal flesh and blood came down from heaven. So Mary’s womb must have been heaven!   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning “the Word of life“. *THE LIFE APPEARED*; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you “the eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER” and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And “our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-3 The Word became flesh and “made his dwelling (Greek – tabernacled) among us“. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and “they will call him Immanuel”*–which means, “God with us.” Matt 1:23 Trinitarians are fulfilling this scripture by calling him “Immanuel”! Because we say he is “God with us”! Blessings WJ Hi WJ: And so, you acknowledge that Jesus was not speaking of literally eating his flesh, but he was indicating it was through the words that he was speaking that they and we can have eternal life.  Is that what you are saying? Love in Christ, Marty Marty Yes! Did I or Jesus mean cannabolism! That still does not explain away the fact the “He” -“The Word of life”, John 1:1-3 came down from heaven and “He” – “The Word of life” is going back to where 'He the Word of lfe” was! Do you think that John did not understand this truth when he wrote John 1:1, 14 – 1 John 1:1-3 – Revelation 19:13 – John 6:62 – John 17:5. You guys continue to ignore the Greek Grammar and how it cannot be interpreted as a “plan that was with God that came down from heaven”, because as I have shown the Greek tenses show Jesus as doing the action like the Angel and the Holy Spirit who also “Descended” (katabainō) from Heaven! A plan does not act on its own! But hang on to your belief if you like Marty! But it is not scriptural to say Jesus did not come down from heaven and that he was of this world! Blessings WJ

Hi WJ:

And so, you want me to concentrate on “Greek Grammer” so that you can prove your doctrine when it was obvious that when Jesus was speaking of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he was speaking of eating the Words that he was speaking?

He said:

Quote

John 6:32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Fathe r giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Then he said:

Quote

John 6:35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

And so he said “I am the bread of life” and he said:

Quote

John 6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

And so the bread of life is the Word of God that was being spoken to humanity through him.

Quote

Hebrews 1 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And we know that his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.

And so, how much clearer does this have to be?

And let me just add the following to this also: He said:

Quote

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

He said: “I am in the Father and Father is in me”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Elizabeth]

Some just don't  want to learn from others.  That just is unfortunately to say the least….
Look up these Scriptures
Col. 1:15-17
Rev. 3:14
John 1:1 and verse 14
John 3:17
John 6:38-40
John 8:58
John 17:5
Study and learn, I did some time ago.  It is hard I know, however God did not leave me in that unbelief and I am thankful to God for that……Also I have given you and Jodi a good article from Heaven Net that I pasted and you just ignore, ignore…..I just don't understand that…
Peace and Love Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 15 2010,18:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2010,08:01) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 12 2010,23:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,11:32) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,18:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,09:46) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,14:02) The BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN is DIRECTLY said to be the FLESH of Jesus Jesus flesh didn't come down from heaven and Jesus never said such! He said… John 6:38-40 For “I have come down from heaven“… But you say his literal “flesh and blood” came down from heaven! This is why many left him because they thought he was speaking of his own body and blood! Jesus is the “Word of life” that was with the Father and came down from heaven. 1 John 1:1-3. The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14 WJ John 6:50  This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.  51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” There you have it the bread that came down from heaven Jesus says is his flesh. You seem to clearly deny this WJ, and I'd imagine then that you would have no clue as to what Jesus meant by it. How is it that our sins are forgiven, and that we can obtain eternal life? Is it because some “living piece of bread came down from heaven” and shrunk himself into Mary's womb? or is it because Jesus took his Righteous FLESH to the cross and bore our sins, a plan that CAME DOWN from the God of heaven of which He established before time began? Jodi Are you Catholic and believe in the Eucharist? Have you eaten his literal flesh and drank his literal blood? Because Jesus said unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you. John 6:53 Jesus uses his flesh and blood as an allegory to eating his word and drinking his Spirit. Don't you get it. He is the “Word of Life” that was with the Father and he gives us the definition of what it means to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood… And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: “he that cometh to me shall never hunger“; and “he that believeth on me shall never thirst“. John 6:35 Do you see it Jodi? Coming to Jesus at “his command” (his words) is eating his flesh. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but “by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God“. Matt 4:4 The Word of God is likened to bread here! Who is the “Word of life”? 1 John 1:1-3 Jesus also said that believing in him was the same as drinking of his own blood (the life of the flesh is in the blood)! And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, “and believeth on him, may have everlasting life“: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40 But you still insist that Jesus literal flesh and blood came down from heaven. So Mary’s womb must have been heaven!   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning “the Word of life“. *THE LIFE APPEARED*; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you “the eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER” and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And “our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-3 The Word became flesh and “made his dwelling (Greek – tabernacled) among us“. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and “they will call him Immanuel”*–which means, “God with us.” Matt 1:23 Trinitarians are fulfilling this scripture by calling him “Immanuel”! Because we say he is “God with us”! Blessings WJ Hi WJ: And so, you acknowledge that Jesus was not speaking of literally eating his flesh, but he was indicating it was through the words that he was speaking that they and we can have eternal life.  Is that what you are saying? Love in Christ, Marty Marty Yes! Did I or Jesus mean cannibalism! That still does not explain away the fact the “He” -“The Word of life”, John 1:1-3 came down from heaven and “He” – “The Word of life” is going back to where 'He the Word of life” was! Do you think that John did not understand this truth when he wrote John 1:1, 14 – 1 John 1:1-3 – Revelation 19:13 – John 6:62 – John 17:5. You guys continue to ignore the Greek Grammar and how it cannot be interpreted as a “plan that was with God that came down from heaven”, because as I have shown the Greek tenses show Jesus as doing the action like the Angel and the Holy Spirit who also “Descended” (katabainō) from Heaven! A plan does not act on its own! But hang on to your belief if you like Marty! But it is not scriptural to say Jesus did not come down from heaven and that he was of this world! Blessings WJ Hi WJ: And so, you want me to concentrate on “Greek Grammar” so that you can prove your doctrine when it was obvious that when Jesus was speaking of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he was speaking of eating the Words that he was speaking?

No Marty

Just concentrate on the scripture and the way it was translated and reads
…

What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up **WHERE HE WAS BEFORE**”? John 6:62

John 6:38-40
For “I have come down (katabainō) from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice Marty nowhere does our Lord in John 6 indicate he is just the plan of the Father that came down from heaven. If it is possible for that to be conveyed in the Text the Translators could have made it so, but there is not a Bible in the world that says such.

So if you cannot agree to its reading without inference then you look into the Greek to see why it is translated that way and in this case the tenses show that Jesus is the one doing the “descending” (katabainō) just as the Holy Spirit and the Angel did. Matt 3:16 and Matt 28:2

The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…

1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down

“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.

katabainō  is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!

“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.

SO WHEN JESUS SAID “I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN” THE GREEK TENSE SAYS HE IS DOING THE ACTION, THEREFORE IT CANNOT BE INTERPRETED “A THOUGHT OR A PLAN CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN” BECAUSE THOUGHTS AND PLANS DO NOT PERFORN AN ACTION ON THEIR OWN!

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning “the Word of life“. *THE LIFE APPEARED*; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you “the eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER” and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And “our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-3

WHO IS THE **WORD OF LIFE** THAT WAS WITH THE FATHER MARTY?

In the beginning was the Word, and “the Word was with God”, and the Word was God. “THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD“. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. “IN HIM WAS LIFE AND THE LIFE WAS THE LIGHT OF MEN. John 1:1

The Word became flesh and “made his dwelling (Greek – tabernacled) among us“. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

Like I said, believe as you will. The scriptures say that Jesus came down from heaven and he was not of this world!

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; **I AM FROM ABOVE** (NOT I AM GODS PLAN FROM ABOVE): ye are of this world; **I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD**. John 8:23

AT Robertson states…

I am from above (egw ek twn anw eimi).
The contrast is COMPLET IN ORIGIN AND CHARACTER, already stated in (John) 3:31, and calculated to intensify their anger.

“HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all: “he that is of the earth is earthly“, and speaketh of the earth: “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all. John 3:31

Argue with scripture Marty!

Blessings WJ

[kerwin]

Worshipping Jesus wrote:

Quote

This makes no sense at all. You are saying that they could not convey “Monotheism” in Greek!

I am rather stating that the writers used words meant to convey polytheistic ideas to instead covey monotheistic ones.   People who are unaware of Jewish monotheism could therefore stumble when listening to those words.  Those stumbles can be corrected by a knowledgeable authority led by the Holy Spirit.   Actually, I think anyone that has the Holy Spirit would be a knowledgeable authority; as least when they are fully mature.

Worshipping Jesus wrote:

Quote

What happened to the Holy Spirit guiding and leading us into all truth?

That is the only way to find the truth.  The rest is merely teaching tools that aid our progress.

Worshipping Jesus wrote:

Quote

I see. So it is left up to us to “privately interpret” the scriptures?

“Private” is not the correct word to use, according to the definitions I read for it, but I know what you mean anyways.   You mean the interpretation of man instead of the interpretation of God.   I believe that “human interpretation” would probably be a better way of putting that as” human” mean “of or pertaining to the social aspect of people” according to dictionary.com.

You are correct that you need to be lead by the Holy Spirit no matter what tools and techniques you use to understand scripture.

[Author]

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