Preexistence

[Elizabeth]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 13 2010,02:27)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 12 2010,11:54) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 02 2010,04:25) Once again I ask that someone here please explain, through scripture, what was this GLORY that an immortal creature had before becoming a human being, and then show through scripture where it speaks of Jesus going BACK to this glory? One thing you need to realise before even having to explain this, is that if the glory is as you say it is, then we can make the same claim too. So will your last words be “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began”? If yes, what do you think the hearers would think? That you were a plan? Now what is the glory? I would say it is the Father's glory. As the Word which is Jesus, was WITH the Father. Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels.” Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. And finally we have this pearl. John 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. Now think about that. If you said that you loved your child before 1990, then as a side note, you would just assume that your child was born before that year would you not? t8, First of all, how is the glory spoken of in the scriptures which I posted, “how I say it is’?… is it not what the scriptures say it is? Second the list of scriptures you gave are not speaking of the glory Jesus Christ received, but the glory of the Father, so you have still not answered my question or even come close. YES we can make the same claim, as scripture tells us we share Christ’s glory. It is amazing to me that what I find to be one of the focal aspects of the gospel truth, you and others do not grasp. Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together………29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.……38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. Jesus was raised in glory receiving a spiritual body of incorruption and we as well are promised the SAME. This was a Promise made by the Father before time began. Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, Romans 9:9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, I did in fact love my children long before they were born. Even when I was very young, I imagined having my own kids and I imagined loving them to pieces! The whole reason I had children was because I was waiting to give them the love I knew I already had to give them.  But I find it rather silly to compare myself in this manner with God, for in His case with His powers He can actually see who His children are even before they are born, where I could only imagine them. YHWH can see the exact future because He is the Power who IS creating it.   God MUST HAVE loved us before we were born or else He would have never created us, which is exactly WHY He promised us Eternal Life even before He created Adam and Eve. God calls who He wills, not according to works but according to His election. God loved mankind before time began because He knew that His CALLING would produce the Heavenly MAN. And this is what irritates me, the Son of God’s love is the MAN Jesus, and it is this man raised from the dead that heaven and earth were created for in the beginning, and this MAN is the firstborn of many brethren.  The Son of God's love was not some immortal spirit son who became Jesus. Heaven and earth were created for the HUMAN King who is the offspring of David, but is the root of David for He sits as King over him. And if Jesus is King we too our heirs with him and many are being called to be Kings and priests to rule with him. 2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. 16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work. Yes t8, JESUS humbled himself and emptied himself. The PERSON who’s NAME is Jesus,the MAN born from Mary’s womb, after receiving God’s Holy Spirit with all it’s powers, HE HUMBLED himself and HE emptied himself, for HE did not use God’s powers that were given to him for himself, instead he made himself a SERVANT unto God and unto us. When people see THE NAME JESUS and equate it in the scripture with a pre-existent being they are grossly distorting the truth IMO, they change the entire content of the scriptures meaning. The NAME Jesus should ALWAYS be equated with the MAN born of Mary that was raised from the dead and was made into the first heavenly man, of the many heavenly men that are to come. t8, As previously mentioned you did not explain what the GLORY was Jesus was asking for prior to his death that he had before the world was. What scripture tells us directly was that Jesus received eternal life as a human being, a body of glory of incorruptible flesh!! What scripture tells us directly is that the Father promised eternal life to human beings before time began. As well, the MAN Jesus we are also told was promised before time began to one day come and be a savior. Obviously you do not believe these scriptures are lies, but it would in fact seem that you and others conveniently disregard them in giving Jesus Christ his identity. I ask again what is the glory JESUS had before the world was? Please note, I am asking what glory JESUS had, not the glory that some immortal spirit son had, but the person who's NAME is in fact Jesus, the MAN who was promised to come and be a savior, THAT JESUS!

Jodi! If that is so then Jesus went back to that glory you talked about. We know that Jesus went back to His Father and is a Spirit being, Scripture tells us that flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God. So Jesus is again what He was before the world was. John 17:54 and by His own words He said in
John 6:38 that He came from Heaven to do the will of His Father who send Him.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them:” Most assurentley, I say to you before Abraham was, I am.

NOW IF YOU WANT TO CALL JESUS A LIAR, I DON'T I BELIEVE HIM.

I also ging to believe Him when He said that He came from Heaven. John was Jesus half Brother and close to Jesus IMO though. All those Scriptures when Jesus tells us what He did and where He is going back to, you all calling Him a liar, if you don't believe Him. We can never make the same claim, unless you were a Spirit being before the world was….Thats bull…..
Even when Jesus gives us those Scriptures you deny and deny…….Good luck to all of you …..time will tell I always say. I am done again with all of my you, you simple do not want to learn the truth…..Yeh I know you could say that too…..bull…

[Elizabeth]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,03:54)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 11 2010,19:16) Did he exist as the Son of man before his birth?  No, he did not.  He explains by saying he is speaking of eating the words that he is speaking and not his literal flesh, but the flesh was necessary for him to accomplish what God intended from the beginning of creation. Marty Your words disagrees with Jesus claim! What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up **WHERE HE WAS BEFORE**”? John 6:62 John 6:38-40 For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated. The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a  “Unitarian” interpretation. The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined… 1) to go down, come down, descend a) the place from which one has come down from b) to come down “In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“. katabainō  is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood! “The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.” Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above. “The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action. “The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. ”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38 The same word is used here… And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16 And here… And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2 Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” that came down from heaven? Or did they really descend from  heaven? Blessings WJ

W.J.  I have given those Scriptures now several times and they Gene, kerwin and Jodi keep on denying it over and over again.
Even when Jesus is saying that He came from Heaven and came down to do the will of His Father.  They are calling Jesus a liar.  Very nice….
I am done I just can't take all that nonsense….
kerwin even said that God the Father is not His Father, but David is….go and read up on it, pretty funny…
Keep up the good work, Irene

[kerwin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2010,22:06)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2010,00:10) The problem with Worshipping Jesus' arguments is that the ideas behind the grammar are Hebrew and not Greek and I assure you the Jew of that period did not reason as the Greek did. Kerwin The problem that you have is you are denying the inspired words of the Apostles who were also “JEWS” and who wrote these words in Koine Greek and spoke the language! Blessings WJ

I am not disagreeing with you that they spoke the common Greek language.  My point is they though like Jews and not like Greeks and had to translate their ideas to the Greek language.  The trick is to also think like a Jew of the mystic tradition they followed and not like polytheistic Greeks.  

That is why I mentioned the idea of the preexistence of all human souls which is an actual teaching of some Jews of the time.  I have my doubts that the apostles believed such but it should be considered just in case I am in error.  After all Paul did mention the third heaven and it is related to the belief that the souls of unborn human children dwell in the Seventh Heaven where also the throne of God resides.

[kerwin]

Irene,

Romans 1:1-4(NIV) reads:

Quote

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

As you see scripture does not say what you do.

As for natural decent David come first and then Jesus but as for the relationship to the Holy Spirit Jesus comes first and David is made complete only with those who believe Jesus is the Anointed.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2010,12:22)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2010,22:06) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2010,00:10) The problem with Worshipping Jesus' arguments is that the ideas behind the grammar are Hebrew and not Greek and I assure you the Jew of that period did not reason as the Greek did. Kerwin The problem that you have is you are denying the inspired words of the Apostles who were also “JEWS” and who wrote these words in Koine Greek and spoke the language! Blessings WJ I am not disagreeing with you that they spoke the common Greek language.  My point is they though like Jews and not like Greeks and had to translate their ideas to the Greek language.  The trick is to also think like a Jew of the mystic tradition they followed and not like polytheistic Greeks.   That is why I mentioned the idea of the preexistence of all human souls which is an actual teaching of some Jews of the time.  I have my doubts that the apostles believed such but it should be considered just in case I am in error.  After all Paul did mention the third heaven and it is related to the belief that the souls of unborn human children dwell in the Seventh Heaven where also the throne of God resides.

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2010,12:22)

I am not disagreeing with you that they spoke the common Greek language.

Kerwin

No, but you are implying that they did not know what they were saying when they were inspired to write the text!

If your implication is true then how can we truly know what any of the scriptures mean?

WJ

[Jodi Lee]

Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together………29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The IMAGE of God's Son is the IMAGE of a MAN who GREW in grace and knowledge, and who was PERFECTED through suffering. Jesus was raised from the dead NOT because he pre-existed and was promised to go back to what he was before, but because being a MAN without sin, do to the work of the Spirit of the Father that was in him, he could not be held to the punishment of sin which is death. Jesus was raised it says being seating at God's right hand having RECEIVED from the Father the PROMISE of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:33). The Holy Spirit gives LIFE, and it was Eternal Life that the Father PROMISED to MAN before time began.  

The IMAGE of the SON has EVERYTHING to do with the MAN Jesus and what the Spirit of God accomplished IN THAT MAN. The image of the Son that we are to become is of the heavenly MAN, NOT some pr-existing creature.

Jesus was not resurrected so he could go back to what he was before, for crying out loud, GOD PERFECTED the MAN JESUS, does that NOT have any significance or carry any meaning to you people??

The blindness on this forum is astounding!!

It is a man that sits next to the Father and it is the Son of Man that is returning. Where are the scriputres that say Jesus IS ALSO some other sort of creature he was before he was a man?

Why do you people ignore these scriptures?

Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,  31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.  32  This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.  33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.  34  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand,  35  Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” '   36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”  

Acts 13:32  And we declare to you glad tidings–that promise which was made to the fathers.  33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'   34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.'   35  Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.'   36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;  37  but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38  Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;  

1 Corinthians 15:16  For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.  17  And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!  18  Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.  19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.  20  But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.  

Jesus BECAME the fulfillment of the Promise, an immortal MAN!! Jesus did not go back to being someone or something else.

…42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43  It is sown in dishonor,it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.  44  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Jesus did not go BACK to being a spirit being, Jesus was RAISED into having incorruptible FLESH which is his spiritual BODY!!  

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

Once again NO scripture states that Jesus is a spirit being or that he went back to being a spirit being, those words together DON'T EVEN EXIST in the Bible.

As for you Irene, you say Jesus is not flesh even though Jesus himself says he is and then you accuse me of calling Jesus a liar?

Paul teaches us clearly that the FLESH profits us nothing, that we, being flesh and blood cannot through that flesh and blood bring OURSELVES into eternal life, we NEED the Spirit of God. So flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God the SPIRIT of God working in us is what inherits us into the kingdom of God.

This is the third time I believe now that I have explained this to you Irene. Your view of 1 Corinthians 15:50 is very annoying to me because it bears NO FRUIT it actually takes away from the fullness of Paul's teaching. As well you have NO scripture that states that Jesus CHANGED into something else AFTER his flesh did not see corruption but was changed into incorruption, so your view is IMO as about pathetic as it is annoying.

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 13 2010,04:07)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,03:54) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 11 2010,19:16) Did he exist as the Son of man before his birth?  No, he did not.  He explains by saying he is speaking of eating the words that he is speaking and not his literal flesh, but the flesh was necessary for him to accomplish what God intended from the beginning of creation. Marty Your words disagrees with Jesus claim! What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up **WHERE HE WAS BEFORE**”? John 6:62 John 6:38-40 For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated. The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a  “Unitarian” interpretation. The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined… 1) to go down, come down, descend a) the place from which one has come down from b) to come down “In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“. katabainō  is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood! “The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.” Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above. “The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action. “The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. ”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38 The same word is used here… And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16 And here… And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2 Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” that came down from heaven? Or did they really descend from  heaven? Blessings WJ W.J.  I have given those Scriptures now several times and they Gene, kerwin and Jodi keep on denying it over and over again. Even when Jesus is saying that He came from Heaven and came down to do the will of His Father.  They are calling Jesus a liar.  Very nice…. I am done I just can't take all that nonsense…. kerwin even said that God the Father is not His Father, but David is….go and read up on it, pretty funny… Keep up the good work, Irene

Yes there is some serious nonsense going on around here.

WJ has conveniently left out most of the chapter which gives us the the true understanding of what is being said.

If Jesus Christ LITERALLY came down from heaven then WHO was born from Mary's womb?  When did this person LITERALLY come down?

Irene did you read this post?
=======================================
John 6:1  After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias.  2  Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased.  3  And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.  4  Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.  5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?”  6  But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.  7 Philip answered Him, “Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may have a little.”  8  One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to Him,  9  “There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two small fish, but what are they among so many?”  10 Then Jesus said, “Make the people sit down.” Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.  11  And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples  to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted.  12  So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost.”  13 Therefore they gathered them up, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves which were left over by those who had eaten.  14 Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15 Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone.

Deuteronomy 18:15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,

Acts 3:18  But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.  19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,  20  and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,   21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.  22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your b
rethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.

The people were expecting God to one day send them a HUMAN prophet that would be greater than all previous prophets!

1 Chronicles 22:10 He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

Luke 1:30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

The people were expecting that one day God would send them a man whom their God would be a Father to, and that God would establish this MAN a throne that would last forever.

The people were waiting for their God to send them the man of God’s promises. When the men in John 6 saw the MAN Jesus perform a sign they declared him to be the MAN that God had promised them He would one day send. These men did not see Jesus as the eternal king because he pre-existed as some other creature, but BECAUSE of the PROMISE their fathers received which spoke of a HUMAN BEING. They did not see Jesus as a prophet because he existed before as the word of God, but BECAUSE of the PROMISE that Moses spoke about of there being a prophet from among their brethren.  

John 6:16  Now when evening came, His disciples went down to the sea,  17  got into the boat, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was already dark, and Jesus had not come to them.  18  Then the sea arose because a great wind was blowing.  19  So when they had rowed about three or four miles,  they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were afraid.  20  But He said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.”  21  Then they willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land where they were going.  22 On the following day, when the people who were standing on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, except that one which His disciples had entered,  and that Jesus had not entered the boat with His disciples, but His disciples had gone away alone–  23  however, other boats came from Tiberias, near the place where they ate bread after the Lord had given thanks–  24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.  25  And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You come here?”  26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.  27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”  28  Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”  29  Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” 30  Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?  31  Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' ”   32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.  33  For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34  Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”  35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.  36  But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.  37  All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.  38  For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.  39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.  40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”  41  The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”  42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?”  43  Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.  44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.  45  It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.'  Therefore everyone who has heard and learned  from the Father comes to Me.  46  Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.  47  Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me  has everlasting life.  48 I am the bread of life.  49  Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.  50  This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.  51I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”  52  The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”  53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.  54  Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.  55  For My flesh is food indeed,  and My blood is drink indeed.  56  He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.  57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.  58 This is the bread which came down from heaven–not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

The scripture is CLEAR as to what WAS IN FACT SENT, it was the FLESH that would die on the cross that we are to eat in order to receive eternal life. That which was SENT was in fact the MAN of the promise. The BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN is DIRECTLY said to be the FLESH of Jesus

There is absolutely nothing in the above chapter that even remotely speaks about Jesus pre-existing, or that some immortal creature gave up what he had and literally came down from heaven and became a man.

Everything in the above clarifies all that Gene and I have said, which is Jesus IS the MAN of the PROMISE. God promised one day to send a prophet, a man who would one day be an eternal king, who would save people from their sins. As promised, this man would die but his flesh would not to see corruption but receive immortality. Jesus was IN FACT THIS FLESH that God promised He would SEND!!

For My flesh is food indeed,  and My blood is drink indeed.  56  He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him…….th
is is the BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN!!
=============================================

WJ and Irene, is Jesus flesh literally food?  Did this flesh literally turn itself into bread and then literally fall from the sky?

WJ and Irene, WHAT PART of the embryo in Mary's womb was this PERSON that literally came down? Did it shrink and go inside the embryo, like you'd see on an episode of the Magic School Bus?  Are you going to tell us that inside Mary's womb the embryo was talking to his Father..was he already performing miracles? Ah, was this embryo STILL the Word of God in the womb?  

So if this person literally came down, why did Jesus need to grow in grace and knowledge? Why did he need to receive the Holy Spirit, and how was he then a human made every way as we are?

No seriously what I really want to know is, what literally came down from heaven, when did it come down, and where did it go from there?

===============
When the disciples in John 6 did not understand what Jesus meant he went on to tell them NOT that he pre-existed, not that he literally came down from the sky but he told them, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven.”
================

I got it! Irene, you and WJ must believe that it was a PIECE OF BREAD THAT WAS ACTUALLY ALIVE THAT MORPHED ITSELF INTO MARY'S WOMB!!

or maybe this is it,

The “spirit being” that Jesus was before that he went back to after receiving the glory of being made into an immortal man, was LITERALLY A LIVING PIECE of BREAD!!

I realize this is more then likely not exactly what you believe, however whatever it is you actually believe no doubt is probably just as absurd and ridiculous IMO!!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,14:02)

If Jesus Christ LITERALLY came down from heaven then WHO was born from Mary's womb?  When did this person LITERALLY come down?

John 1:1, 1 John 1:1-3 John 1:14, Phil 2:6-8!

If Jesus didn't litterally come down from heaven as you say then the Manna in the wilderness did not litterally come down from heaven!

Your proof text does not contradict the fact that Jesus came in the “likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man“!

Why do you keep denying and ignoring the Greek text?

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 13 2010,05:07)

Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together………29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. The IMAGE of God's Son is the IMAGE of a MAN who GREW in grace and knowledge, and who was PERFECTED through suffering. Jesus was raised from the dead NOT because he pre-existed and was promised to go back to what he was before, but because being a MAN without sin, do to the work of the Spirit of the Father that was in him, he could not be held to the punishment of sin which is death. Jesus was raised it says being seating at God's right hand having RECEIVED from the Father the PROMISE of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:33). The Holy Spirit gives LIFE, and it was Eternal Life that the Father PROMISED to MAN before time began.   The IMAGE of the SON has EVERYTHING to do with the MAN Jesus and what the Spirit of God accomplished IN THAT MAN. The image of the Son that we are to become is of the heavenly MAN, NOT some pr-existing creature. Jesus was not resurrected so he could go back to what he was before, for crying out loud, GOD PERFECTED the MAN JESUS, does that NOT have any significance or carry any meaning to you people?? The blindness on this forum is astounding!! It is a man that sits next to the Father and it is the Son of Man that is returning. Where are the scriputres that say Jesus IS ALSO some other sort of creature he was before he was a man? Why do you people ignore these scriptures? Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,  31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.  32  This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.  33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.  34  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand,  35  Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” '   36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”   Acts 13:32  And we declare to you glad tidings–that promise which was made to the fathers.  33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'   34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.'   35  Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.'   36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;  37  but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38  Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;   1 Corinthians 15:16  For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.  17  And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!  18  Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.  19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.  20  But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.   Jesus BECAME the fulfillment of the Promise, an immortal MAN!! Jesus did not go back to being someone or something else. …42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43  It is sown in dishonor,it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.  44  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Jesus did not go BACK to being a spirit being, Jesus was RAISED into having incorruptible FLESH which is his spiritual BODY!!   Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” Once again NO scripture states that Jesus is a spirit being or that he went back to being a spirit being, those words together DON'T EVEN EXIST in the Bible. As for you Irene, you say Jesus is not flesh even though Jesus himself says he is and then you accuse me of calling Jesus a liar? Paul teaches us clearly that the FLESH profits us nothing, that we, being flesh and blood cannot through that flesh and blood bring OURSELVES into eternal life, we NEED the Spirit of God. So flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God the SPIRIT of God working in us is what inherits us into the kingdom of God. This is the third time I believe now that I have explained this to you Irene. Your view of 1 Corinthians 15:50 is very annoying to me because it bears NO FRUIT it actually takes away from the fullness of Paul's teaching. As well you have NO scripture that states that Jesus CHANGED into something else AFTER his flesh did not see corruption but was changed into incorruption, so your view is IMO as about pathetic as it is annoying.

Jodi

that man you discibe sitting next to God,as to ware ASBESTOS COSTUM AND GEAR FOR PROTECTION?

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 12 2010,15:31)

Don't forget this one though. John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. And those verses you quote do fit with Jesus having glory with the Father before the world began because Jesus emptied and humbling himself to be lower than the angels as a real flesh human being and then dying, to being raised up into glory. So God could easily have given him all these things after because Jesus emptied himself and was after all a man like us.

Hi t8:

He said:”GLORIFY ME IN YOUR PRESENCE. God had forseen that he would glorify him by raising him from the dead and exalting him to His position at His right hand as head of the church when he had finished the work that God had given him to do on earth.

Quote

1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,14:02)

The BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN is DIRECTLY said to be the FLESH of Jesus

Jesus flesh didn't come down from heaven and Jesus never said such!

He said…

John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven“…

But you say his ltteral “flesh and blood” came down from heaven!

This is why many left him because they thought he was speaking of his own body and blood!

Jesus is the “Word of life” that was with the Father and came down from heaven. 1 John 1:1-3.

The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14

WJ

[942767]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 13 2010,04:07)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,03:54) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 11 2010,19:16) Did he exist as the Son of man before his birth?  No, he did not.  He explains by saying he is speaking of eating the words that he is speaking and not his literal flesh, but the flesh was necessary for him to accomplish what God intended from the beginning of creation. Marty Your words disagrees with Jesus claim! What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up **WHERE HE WAS BEFORE**”? John 6:62 John 6:38-40 For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated. The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a  “Unitarian” interpretation. The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined… 1) to go down, come down, descend a) the place from which one has come down from b) to come down “In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“. katabainō  is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood! “The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.” Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above. “The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action. “The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. ”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38 The same word is used here… And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16 And here… And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2 Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” that came down from heaven? Or did they really descend from  heaven? Blessings WJ W.J.  I have given those Scriptures now several times and they Gene, kerwin and Jodi keep on denying it over and over again. Even when Jesus is saying that He came from Heaven and came down to do the will of His Father.  They are calling Jesus a liar.  Very nice…. I am done I just can't take all that nonsense…. kerwin even said that God the Father is not His Father, but David is….go and read up on it, pretty funny… Keep up the good work, Irene

And so, WJ and Mrs.

Please tell me how Jesus came down from heaven?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,09:46)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,14:02) The BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN is DIRECTLY said to be the FLESH of Jesus Jesus flesh didn't come down from heaven and Jesus never said such! He said… John 6:38-40 For “I have come down from heaven“… But you say his ltteral “flesh and blood” came down from heaven! This is why many left him because they thought he was speaking of his own body and blood! Jesus is the “Word of life” that was with the Father and came down from heaven. 1 John 1:1-3. The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14 WJ

John 6:50  This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.  51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

There you have it the bread that came down from heaven Jesus says is his flesh.

You seem to clearly deny this WJ, and I'd imagine then that you would have no clue as to what Jesus meant by it.

How is it that our sins are forgiven, and that we can obtain eternal life? Is it because some “living piece of bread came down from heaven” and shrunk himself into Mary's womb?

or is it because Jesus took his Righteous FLESH to the cross and bore our sins, a plan that CAME DOWN from the God of heaven of which He established before time began?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,14:02)

The people were expecting God to one day send them a HUMAN prophet that would be greater than all previous prophets!

Jodi

Exactly, and that is why they didn't know him because he claimed God was his own personal Father therefore making himself equal to God!

So they crucified him not knowing who he was!

Jesus said he was not of this world but you “Unitarians” want to make his origins of this world.

He was born of a virgin for a reason. He was not just a “flesh and blood” being but was also a Spirit being, the “Word” that was with God and was God! John 1:1 – 1 John 1:1-3 – Phil 2:6-8.

You deny that God himself has the power to take on human form if he likes.

You also believe that the Infinite God has to be made into your image and your likeness by not believing God can be plural and yet one!

Blessings WJ

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,18:40)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,09:46) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,14:02) The BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN is DIRECTLY said to be the FLESH of Jesus Jesus flesh didn't come down from heaven and Jesus never said such! He said… John 6:38-40 For “I have come down from heaven“… But you say his literal “flesh and blood” came down from heaven! This is why many left him because they thought he was speaking of his own body and blood! Jesus is the “Word of life” that was with the Father and came down from heaven. 1 John 1:1-3. The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14 WJ John 6:50  This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.  51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” There you have it the bread that came down from heaven Jesus says is his flesh. You seem to clearly deny this WJ, and I'd imagine then that you would have no clue as to what Jesus meant by it. How is it that our sins are forgiven, and that we can obtain eternal life? Is it because some “living piece of bread came down from heaven” and shrunk himself into Mary's womb? or is it because Jesus took his Righteous FLESH to the cross and bore our sins, a plan that CAME DOWN from the God of heaven of which He established before time began?

Jodi

Are you Catholic and believe in the Eucharist?

Have you eaten his literal flesh and drank his literal blood?

Because Jesus said unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you. John 6:53

Jesus uses his flesh and blood as an allegory to eating his word and drinking his Spirit.

Don't you get it. He is the “Word of Life” that was with the Father and he gives us the definition of what it means to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood…

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: “he that cometh to me shall never hunger“; and “he that believeth on me shall never thirst“. John 6:35

Do you see it Jodi? Coming to Jesus at “his command” (his words) is eating his flesh.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but “by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God“. Matt 4:4

The Word of God is liken to bread here!

Who is the “Word of life”? 1 John 1:1-3

Jesus also said that believing in him was the same as drinking of his own blood (the life of the flesh is in the blood)!

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, “and believeth on him, may have everlasting life“: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

But you still insist that Jesus literal flesh and blood came down from heaven.

So Mary’s womb must have been heaven!  

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning “the Word of life“. *THE LIFE APPEARED*; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you “the eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER” and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And “our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-3

The Word became flesh and “made his dwelling (Greek – tabernacled) among us“. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

“The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and “they will call him Immanuel”*–which means, “God with us.” Matt 1:23

Trinitarians are fulfilling this scripture by calling him “Immanuel”!

Because we say he is “God with us”!

Blessings WJ

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,10:50)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,14:02) The people were expecting God to one day send them a HUMAN prophet that would be greater than all previous prophets! Jodi Exactly, and that is why they didn't know him because he claimed God was his own personal Father therefore making himself equal to God! So they crucified him not knowing who he was! Jesus said he was not of this world but you “Unitarians” want to make his origins of this world. He was born of a virgin for a reason. He was not just a “flesh and blood” being but was also a Spirit being, the “Word” that was with God and was God! John 1:1 – 1 John 1:1-3 – Phil 2:6-8. You deny that God himself has the power to take on human form if he likes. You also believe that the Infinite God has to be made into your image and your likeness by not believing God can be plural and yet one! Blessings WJ WJ

John 15:18  “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.  19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

John 8:23  And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.  24  Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”  25  Then they said to Him, “Who are You?” And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.  26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”  27  They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.  28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

Jesus was not trying to tell the people that he was NOT the SON of MAN, that instead he was some ALIEN not of this World.

Jesus chose men and gave them the word of the Father and these men believed in Jesus and in that they were considered NOT of This World. Jesus the MAN was CHOSEN before time began to receive the Spirit of the Father and the teaching that came from that Spirit, and it made him NOT of This World!

MEN under the Spirit of God are NOT of this world!

[Elizabeth]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 13 2010,09:58)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 13 2010,04:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,03:54) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 11 2010,19:16) Did he exist as the Son of man before his birth?  No, he did not.  He explains by saying he is speaking of eating the words that he is speaking and not his literal flesh, but the flesh was necessary for him to accomplish what God intended from the beginning of creation. Marty Your words disagrees with Jesus claim! What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up **WHERE HE WAS BEFORE**”? John 6:62 John 6:38-40 For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated. The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a  “Unitarian” interpretation. The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined… 1) to go down, come down, descend a) the place from which one has come down from b) to come down “In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“. katabainō  is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood! “The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.” Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above. “The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action. “The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. ”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38 The same word is used here… And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16 And here… And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2 Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” that came down from heaven? Or did they really descend from  heaven? Blessings WJ W.J.  I have given those Scriptures now several times and they Gene, kerwin and Jodi keep on denying it over and over again. Even when Jesus is saying that He came from Heaven and came down to do the will of His Father.  They are calling Jesus a liar.  Very nice…. I am done I just can't take all that nonsense…. kerwin even said that God the Father is not His Father, but David is….go and read up on it, pretty funny… Keep up the good work, Irene And so, WJ and Mrs. Please tell me how Jesus came down from heaven? Love in Christ, Marty

That is such a dumb question not to even answer that. You are asking Jesus how He come down from Heaven? What Jesus is saying is that He knew where He came from that He came down from Heaven, TO NOT TO DO HIS OWN WILL, BUT THE WILL OF HIS FATHER THAT SEND HIM. Got it….
Read the story and learn for once. All you here want to do is teach your own theology, rather then reading the Scriptures the way they are written. Is that so hard to do,for pet's sake. All the Scriptures that I put down for all of you and you still can't get it. Sometimes I wonder…He existed as the Son of God from the beginning in John 1:1 and in verse 14 He became flesh. He emptied Himself and became like a Servant. Also did you even grasp Rev. 19:13-16?
” He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD.
verse 16 And He has on His robe and His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, Do you remember that He was called that? Or do you have a lack of memory? I thought at least you of all people would understand it. But No no, one day you will. When you deny these Scriptures you are calling Jesus a liar….Because it is not I who is saying this, but Jesus or KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Your last statement is laughable. It is Jesus who is saying this, that He came down from Heaven and not I, my friend.
And of course there in John 17:5 which you want to rewrite. It says before the world was and not in the presence. He went back to His Father in Heaven as a glorified body. He had a glory with His Father before the world was. He is also the firstborn of all creation. How many Scriptures are you going to deny….Firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death. So that in all things He may have preeminence, Meaning He was first in all. Firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death. Going to deny that too, are you? of course you will. Georg thinks that I am wasting my time with all of you, maybe He is right.

Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,20:27)

Jesus was not trying to tell the people that he was NOT the SON of MAN, that instead he was some ALIEN not of this World.

Who said he was an “alien”?

Is the Father an “alien”, yet we know the Father is not of this world!

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; “I AM FROM ABOVE. You are of this world;John 8:23

Did you leave out the part “I AM FROM ABOVE?

He didn't say “I am the plan of God from above”, did he?

You guys cannot accept simple words!

We are not of this world because Jesus chose us “out of this world“.

Jesus was from above, all other men were from beneath!

Jodi, look at the context…

Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: “whither I go, ye cannot come“. John 8:21

Twist and spin all you like. You seek to make Jesus of this world!

But Jesus said to the unbelieving scribes and Pharasees…

Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: “for I know whence I came, and whither I go“; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. John 8:14

“Men still do not know where he came from and where he went!“

WJ

[942767]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 13 2010,12:29)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 13 2010,09:58) Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 13 2010,04:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,03:54) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 11 2010,19:16) Did he exist as the Son of man before his birth?  No, he did not.  He explains by saying he is speaking of eating the words that he is speaking and not his literal flesh, but the flesh was necessary for him to accomplish what God intended from the beginning of creation. Marty Your words disagrees with Jesus claim! What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up **WHERE HE WAS BEFORE**”? John 6:62 John 6:38-40 For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated. The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a  “Unitarian” interpretation. The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined… 1) to go down, come down, descend a) the place from which one has come down from b) to come down “In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“. katabainō  is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood! “The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.” Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above. “The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action. “The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. ”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38 The same word is used here… And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16 And here… And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2 Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” that came down from heaven? Or did they really descend from  heaven? Blessings WJ W.J.  I have given those Scriptures now several times and they Gene, kerwin and Jodi keep on denying it over and over again. Even when Jesus is saying that He came from Heaven and came down to do the will of His Father.  They are calling Jesus a liar.  Very nice…. I am done I just can't take all that nonsense…. kerwin even said that God the Father is not His Father, but David is….go and read up on it, pretty funny… Keep up the good work, Irene And so, WJ and Mrs. Please tell me how Jesus came down from heaven? Love in Christ, Marty That is such a dumb question not to even answer that.  You are asking Jesus how He come down from Heaven?  What  Jesus is saying is that He knew where He came from that He came down from Heaven, TO NOT TO DO HIS OWN WILL, BUT THE WILL OF HIS FATHER THAT SEND HIM.  Got it…. Read the story and learn for once.  All you here want to do is teach your own theology, rather then reading the Scriptures the way they are written.  Is that so hard to do,for pet's sake.  All the Scriptures that I put down for all of you and you still can't get it.  Sometimes I wonder…He existed as the Son of God from the beginning in John 1:1 and in verse 14 He became flesh.  He emptied Himself and became like a Servant.   Also did you even grasp Rev. 19:13-16? ” He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD. verse 16  And He has on His robe and His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS,  Do you remember that He was called that?  Or do you have a lack of memory?  I thought at least you of all people would understand it. But No no, one day you will.  When you deny these Scriptures you are calling Jesus a liar….Because it is not I who is saying this, but Jesus or KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Your last statement is laughable.  It is Jesus who is saying this, that He came down from Heaven and not I, my friend. And of course there in John 17:5 which you want to rewrite.  It says before the world was and not in the presence.  He went back to His Father in Heaven as a glorified body. He had a glory with His Father before the world was.   He is also the firstborn of all creation.  How many Scriptures are you going to deny….Firstborn  of all creation and firstborn of the death.  So that in all things He may have preeminence,  Meaning He was first in all.  Firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death.  Going to deny that too, are you?  of course you will.  Georg thinks that I am wasting my time with all of you, maybe He is right.   Irene

Hey Mrs., could it be that you could possibly be wrong?

Maybe it is you that just don't get it.

If God would have wanted us to know that Jesus had pre-existed his birth into this world he would have told us plainly. He did not, but he was fore-ordained. That is what the scripture states.

I have also quoted scripture to support my viewpoint, and so one of us is wrong.

And so, here is the dumb question again. How does the scriptures state that Jesus came down from heaven. How do you read?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,11:32)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,18:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,09:46) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,14:02) The BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN is DIRECTLY said to be the FLESH of Jesus Jesus flesh didn't come down from heaven and Jesus never said such! He said… John 6:38-40 For “I have come down from heaven“… But you say his literal “flesh and blood” came down from heaven! This is why many left him because they thought he was speaking of his own body and blood! Jesus is the “Word of life” that was with the Father and came down from heaven. 1 John 1:1-3. The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14 WJ John 6:50  This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.  51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” There you have it the bread that came down from heaven Jesus says is his flesh. You seem to clearly deny this WJ, and I'd imagine then that you would have no clue as to what Jesus meant by it. How is it that our sins are forgiven, and that we can obtain eternal life? Is it because some “living piece of bread came down from heaven” and shrunk himself into Mary's womb? or is it because Jesus took his Righteous FLESH to the cross and bore our sins, a plan that CAME DOWN from the God of heaven of which He established before time began? Jodi Are you Catholic and believe in the Eucharist? Have you eaten his literal flesh and drank his literal blood? Because Jesus said unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you. John 6:53 Jesus uses his flesh and blood as an allegory to eating his word and drinking his Spirit. Don't you get it. He is the “Word of Life” that was with the Father and he gives us the definition of what it means to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood… And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: “he that cometh to me shall never hunger“; and “he that believeth on me shall never thirst“. John 6:35 Do you see it Jodi? Coming to Jesus at “his command” (his words) is eating his flesh. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but “by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God“. Matt 4:4 The Word of God is liken to bread here! Who is the “Word of life”? 1 John 1:1-3 Jesus also said that believing in him was the same as drinking of his own blood (the life of the flesh is in the blood)! And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, “and believeth on him, may have everlasting life“: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40 But you still insist that Jesus literal flesh and blood came down from heaven. So Mary’s womb must have been heaven!   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning “the Word of life“. *THE LIFE APPEARED*; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you “the eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER” and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And “our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-3 The Word became flesh and “made his dwelling (Greek – tabernacled) among us“. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and “they will call him Immanuel”*–which means, “God with us.” Matt 1:23 Trinitarians are fulfilling this scripture by calling him “Immanuel”! Because we say he is “God with us”! Blessings WJ

You clearly are not listening to what I have said.

I have NEVER attested to literal flesh and blood coming down from heaven. What are you talking about?

Jesus came FROM heaven meaning, he CAME from the direct plan and will of GOD. I have said numerous time that JESUS is the MAN promised before time began. The NAME Jesus represents the MAN who was IN the word OF Father that was spoken to the prophets, and that WORD of a COMING MESSIAH became TRUE, for JESUS CAME in the FLESH as the Father PROMISED he would!!

You know I have said that and you know that is what I believe, so WHY NOW make all these accusations which clearly represent NOTHING even close to what I have said?

Didn't I just speak about Jesus being the bread of life and how that represented his flesh dying on the cross?

Your are in error as to the MEANING of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ and what it represents.

John 6:53Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;  24  and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat;  this is My body which is broken  for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”  25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

Matthew 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed  and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”  27  Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you.  28  For this is My blood of the new  covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

John 6:50  Th
is is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

Once again if we KEEP to DIRECT SCRIPTURE, we see that JESUS states, AFTER the confusion by the disciples, that he is the Bread that came down from heaven and he states that bread IS HIS FLESH. THERE exists NO LITERAL account of SOME creature coming down from heaven. The word of God most certainly came down, that word was not a person, that word was the PROMISE of eternal salvation which CAME through the FLESH of Jesus.

See how it all fits PERFECTLY!!

–The flesh of Jesus dying on the cross brought forth the New Covenant where we are promised forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

-Jesus tells us that his flesh IS the BREAD that came down from heaven, and it is this bread that brings us life.

–God promised eternal life before time began and HE SPOKE to the prophets GIVING HIS WORD about a coming MAN who would be a savior and die but who's FLESH would not see corruption.

The BREAD that CAME down from heaven is not shown at all to be a person literally come down from heaven who is the word of God.

WJ, don't you believe that Jesus gave up his position as the word of God?.. so how was it that the “word of God the person” literally coming down when he gave that position up? And when did this person come down and where did he go when got here, and what exactly did he do?

Remember Jesus received God's Spirit and that is when He went out to preach the Gospel.

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