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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,03:35) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 19 2010,11:19) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2010,00:39) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 19 2010,22:45) Where do you read that Jesus had divine nature.? Philippians 2:6 is speaking of godly nature which is why Philippians 2:5 states “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
t8,That person being spoken of IS Jesus Christ, the MAN anointed with God's Spirit. NOT some immortal creature.
JESUS the MAN, who shed his blood for us IS the express image of his Father.
You take the NAME of Christ and you change it's identity, PURE ANTICHRIST doctrine.
Jesus the MAN was given all powers and authority by God. Could you imagine what that would feel like?
Throughout history God has given men wisdom and authority to become powerful kings, those men take what has been given to them by God and turn it into their own glory, they turn and declare themselves as being a god.
Jesus the MAN was given greater wisdom and supernatural powers, and though he appeared as a man he felt within himself as a god, but unlike other men, Jesus declared that which was given to him came from God, and unlike other men he used what God gave him not to serve himself but to serve God and men.
You turn the greatness of Christ and you give his glory over to another creature, and thus you spew deceit out of your mouth IMO.
JodiSo you are calling t8 a liar?
WJ
WJ,t8 believes that Jesus pre-existed, and he is teaching that the PERSON who was the image of God was an immortal creature.
This is what he believes is the truth, he is not out to give deceit, but what he understands.IMO his understanding fills the truth of WHO Jesus IS with deceit.
In order for me to call t8 a person who is deceitful, he would have to be teaching what he knows is not the truth. This is not what he is doing.
t8 is a good guy, I believe his doctrine however is not of truth.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 19 2010,12:22) In order for me to call t8 a person who is deceitful, he would have to be teaching what he knows is not the truth. This is not what he is doing.
JodiThat does not seem to be what you accuse him of!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 19 2010,11:19) You take the NAME of Christ and you change it's identity, PURE ANTICHRIST doctrine…. You turn the greatness of Christ and you give his glory over to another creature, and thus you spew deceit out of your mouth IMO.
WJ
hi all
according to my understanding of the scriptures;Jesus was a normal man grew up normally,his spirit and mind was well aware of what the reason for his birth and being as a man was all about ,doing the will of his heavenly father,
at baptism in water this was the beginning of is total devotion 100% to his father,from here on ,Jesus is different,because now 'everything he will say and do would have a meaning,he now personified his father,because now all what the father has say by the Prophets will come be accomplish through Jesus.this is why he said' i come to do my fathers will' now the miracles that Jesus so called performed,was not performed by him but for him at his demand ,and this was to accomplish not his will but the will of his father,and those miracles will prove without doubt that he was the Messiah,the one that would come in the name of God ,the God of the nation of Israel.this is the reason why Jesus said 'believe the deeds i do, 'if you do not believe me”
so Jesus the man died as a man and suffert as a man to pay the ransom for us,and he did in deed.
and wen time came to go back to his father victorious of is offering ,he took back what was rightfully his the WORD at the right hand of God.
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
The PERSON who was the express image of God was the MAN who died on the cross.
No scripture speaks of some immortal creature that was the express image of God giving up his immortality and came to be a human to die for us.
These are the facts:
Jesus is the name given to the infant born of Mary.
Christ is what Jesus became, for he was anointed by God's Spirit.
That anointing thus CAME from heaven, meaning it came from God.
God sent out Christ, of whom it could be said came down from heaven, out into the world to perform miracles, signs and wonders, and to preach the gospel.
The MAN who's name is Jesus and who became Christ was a promise before time began to one day come.
Scripture says that Jesus Christ was SENT, not an immortal spirit creature was sent, but the MAN who was promised to come was SENT.
Jodi
how was Jesus anointed by the spirit of God and what is the spirit of God in the case of the anointing of Jesus into the messiah
?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,04:30) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 19 2010,12:22) In order for me to call t8 a person who is deceitful, he would have to be teaching what he knows is not the truth. This is not what he is doing.
JodiThat does not seem to be what you accuse him of!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 19 2010,11:19) You take the NAME of Christ and you change it's identity, PURE ANTICHRIST doctrine…. You turn the greatness of Christ and you give his glory over to another creature, and thus you spew deceit out of your mouth IMO.
WJ
WJ,I made it clear in my last post as to what I meant when I said that t8 was spewing deceit out of his mouth.
I was not saying that t8 is himself a deceitful person, trying to purposely spread lies. I said that which he believes IMO is not of truth, that he gives a false image of who Christ is.
Sometimes I am moved to SHOUT OUT DECEIT, when I see a doctrine that is destructive to the name and identity of Christ, and am very bothered by it.
Just what are you doing WJ?
Did you not understand my clarification?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 20 2010,04:54) Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; The PERSON who was the express image of God was the MAN who died on the cross.
No scripture speaks of some immortal creature that was the express image of God giving up his immortality and came to be a human to die for us.
These are the facts:
Jesus is the name given to the infant born of Mary.
Christ is what Jesus became, for he was anointed by God's Spirit.
That anointing thus CAME from heaven, meaning it came from God.
God sent out Christ, of whom it could be said came down from heaven, out into the world to perform miracles, signs and wonders, and to preach the gospel.
The MAN who's name is Jesus and who became Christ was a promise before time began to one day come.
Scripture says that Jesus Christ was SENT, not an immortal spirit creature was sent, but the MAN who was promised to come was SENT.
You have NO right to quote Scripture. You cannot substantiate the veracity of its canon.You are a fraud.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,06:07) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 20 2010,04:54) Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; The PERSON who was the express image of God was the MAN who died on the cross.
No scripture speaks of some immortal creature that was the express image of God giving up his immortality and came to be a human to die for us.
These are the facts:
Jesus is the name given to the infant born of Mary.
Christ is what Jesus became, for he was anointed by God's Spirit.
That anointing thus CAME from heaven, meaning it came from God.
God sent out Christ, of whom it could be said came down from heaven, out into the world to perform miracles, signs and wonders, and to preach the gospel.
The MAN who's name is Jesus and who became Christ was a promise before time began to one day come.
Scripture says that Jesus Christ was SENT, not an immortal spirit creature was sent, but the MAN who was promised to come was SENT.
You have NO right to quote Scripture. You cannot substantiate the veracity of its canon.You are a fraud.
CA,You are correct. Jodi Lee is a fraud. She rejects the oldest Greek manuscripts without even giving a scholarly reason.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 20 2010,06:47) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,06:07) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 20 2010,04:54) Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; The PERSON who was the express image of God was the MAN who died on the cross.
No scripture speaks of some immortal creature that was the express image of God giving up his immortality and came to be a human to die for us.
These are the facts:
Jesus is the name given to the infant born of Mary.
Christ is what Jesus became, for he was anointed by God's Spirit.
That anointing thus CAME from heaven, meaning it came from God.
God sent out Christ, of whom it could be said came down from heaven, out into the world to perform miracles, signs and wonders, and to preach the gospel.
The MAN who's name is Jesus and who became Christ was a promise before time began to one day come.
Scripture says that Jesus Christ was SENT, not an immortal spirit creature was sent, but the MAN who was promised to come was SENT.
You have NO right to quote Scripture. You cannot substantiate the veracity of its canon.You are a fraud.
CA,You are correct. Jodi Lee is a fraud. She rejects the oldest Greek manuscripts without even giving a scholarly reason.
thinker
TT,Come one, don't tell me YOU believe that current manuscript evidence is the means whereby we determine the canon?
What of the believers in previous centuries who did not have the large body of extant manuscript evidence?
Were they left uncertain as to the veracity of the canon?
God forbid.
The Protestant religion is a “high brow” religion. It couldn't have worked before the invention of the printing press. At least not for the masses. Protestantism would have been the religion of the rich.
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know– 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' 29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing thatGod had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
John 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.” 27 And at this point His disciples came, and they marveled that He talked with a woman; yet no one said, “What do You seek?” or, “Why are You talking with her?” 28 The woman then left her waterpot, went her way into the city, and said to the men, 29 “Come, see a Man who told me all things that I ever did. Could this be the Christ?”
The MAN Jesus did NOT pre-exist. Both Abraham and David saw the coming of Jesus and it gave them FAITH for the One True God the Father. The promise was of a coming MAN who would be MADE a master and a Christ, and who's flesh would not see corruption but would be made into incorruptible flesh. This Son of Man is returning, and he will be giving eternal life to those who know him IN TRUTH, and know the Father IN TRUTH, making these true worshipers leaders to rule with him as Kings and Priests. These Kings and Priests will then be judges over all those who belong to false Christianity, and they will teach them the TRUE Gospel.
Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.' 23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus– 24 after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John was finishing his course, he said, 'Who do you think I am? I am not He. But behold, there comes One after me, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to loose.' 26 Men and brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent.
The WORD of salvation has been SENT, Jesus Christ has been SENT. The MAN that would be MADE master and Christ has been sent.
The WORD of the Father BECAME FLESH, for Jesus was the fulfillment of the Father's PROMISES.
jODI
YOU LIKE TO SHOW SCRIPTURES USELY IT IS PEOPLE WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND THEM WHO DO THAT
THEY CAN NOT ANSWER QUESTIONS ETHER.
Hi terraricca,
Sorry I have not posted you back yet. I need to gather scriptures I don't readily have in my head, as I did in posting back to CA and TT.
Hopefully I will have time later on this evening. It's a nice day in Oregon and I'm going to take my girls to the park and then the library.
I should have a response for you later tonight though.
T8,
I will let your other points stand for now so I can address this point.
T8 wrote:
Quote Yet you teach that Jesus is just a man like us and in that case you demean these scriptures to mean nothing more than what can apply to us.
While there is not teaching of preexistence in scripture there is a teaching that Jesus is a human being. That point is made clear
Consider Mathew 8:20(KJV) which reads:
Quote And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Now this could mean that Jesus has the same spiritual nature as human kind like the title Son of God does but since the spiritual nature of man is corrupt I will conclude that is not the case. On the other hand the title Son of God could mean Jesus is a deity except for the fact there is only one Deity and so I conclude it is talking about his spiritual nature. The Trinitarians resolved that issue by their three in one tenet.
This brings me to Romans 1:3(KJV) which reads:
Quote Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
In this one Paul use the word “flesh” instead of “kind” as I did and he stated the kind more specifically then my generic term “human” as the David and his descendants are part of human group.
Now, the preferable method of decent in Hebrew culture is through the father and not through the mother so if Jesus was the physical child of God then he would not be David’s descendant. He is David’s descendant only because there is no Hebrew paternal line of decent. Mind you, that it is absurd to believe God has a physical child as God is spirit, and I do not mean a phantasm.
How do you explain an individual being conceived before their ancestor was conceived?
Now, Romans 1:4 goes on to read:
Quote And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Which can be confusing to those who do not realize the wages of sin is death and since Jesus did not sin he was not due the wages of sin and so could not be held in the grave. In other words Jesus is like God in the spiritual sense.
In Acts 2:22(KJV) which reads:
Quote
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:We are taught Jesus is a man.
Romans 5:15(KJV) reads:
Quote But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Once again we are taught Jesus is a man.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5(KJV) reads:
Quote For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Still again we are taught Jesus is a man.
That should be enough evidence to prove we are taught Jesus is a human being.
Philippians 2:7-8(KJV) reads:
Quote But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
So adding the fact Jesus is a man to what this scripture states we can conclude Jesus is a manlike man and a human appearing man.
Hebrew 2:17(KJV) reads:
Quote Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Here we are taught that Jesus was made like his brother human beings.
So why do you conclude he was made different than other human beings?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 20 2010,10:19) T8, I will let your other points stand for now so I can address this point.
T8 wrote:
Quote Yet you teach that Jesus is just a man like us and in that case you demean these scriptures to mean nothing more than what can apply to us.
While there is not teaching of preexistence in scripture there is a teaching that Jesus is a human being. That point is made clear
Consider Mathew 8:20(KJV) which reads:
Quote And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Now this could mean that Jesus has the same spiritual nature as human kind like the title Son of God does but since the spiritual nature of man is corrupt I will conclude that is not the case. On the other hand the title Son of God could mean Jesus is a deity except for the fact there is only one Deity and so I conclude it is talking about his spiritual nature. The Trinitarians resolved that issue by their three in one tenet.
This brings me to Romans 1:3(KJV) which reads:
Quote Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
In this one Paul use the word “flesh” instead of “kind” as I did and he stated the kind more specifically then my generic term “human” as the David and his descendants are part of human group.
Now, the preferable method of decent in Hebrew culture is through the father and not through the mother so if Jesus was the physical child of God then he would not be David’s descendant. He is David’s descendant only because there is no Hebrew paternal line of decent. Mind you, that it is absurd to believe God has a physical child as God is spirit, and I do not mean a phantasm.
How do you explain an individual being conceived before their ancestor was conceived?
Now, Romans 1:4 goes on to read:
Quote And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Which can be confusing to those who do not realize the wages of sin is death and since Jesus did not sin he was not due the wages of sin and so could not be held in the grave. In other words Jesus is like God in the spiritual sense.
In Acts 2:22(KJV) which reads:
Quote
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:We are taught Jesus is a man.
Romans 5:15(KJV) reads:
Quote But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Once again we are taught Jesus is a man.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5(KJV) reads:
Quote For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Still again we are taught Jesus is a man.
That should be enough evidence to prove we are taught Jesus is a human being.
Philippians 2:7-8(KJV) reads:
Quote But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
So adding the fact Jesus is a man to what this scripture states we can conclude Jesus is a manlike man and a human appearing man.
Hebrew 2:17(KJV) reads:
Quote Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Here we are taught that Jesus was made like his brother human beings.
So why do you conclude he was made different than other human beings?
kerwin I am going to jump in here, because it upsets me when someone just ignores Scriptures. You said to t8 that there is not teaching of the preexisting of Jesus in Scriptures, yet there is.
Col. 1:15 says that He is the firstborn of all creation. If He was the firstborn of all creation, then He existed before men was created.
Rev. 3:14 also says that He was the firstborn of all creation.
And most of all by Jesus own words He said this in
John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” What glory was it that Jesus became after His death on the cross. He became a Spirit Being, and that is what He was before the world was, before He became a man. So to ever say that He was just a mere man, is wrong. Because He knew were He was before, otherwise He could have never said that. Also IMO God had to send someone like Him in order to save mankind. All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:23
And if Jesus would have been just a mere man, IMO He would have sinned also. But He was the Son of God. The firstborn of all creation….
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 20 2010,12:57) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 20 2010,10:19) T8, I will let your other points stand for now so I can address this point.
T8 wrote:
Quote Yet you teach that Jesus is just a man like us and in that case you demean these scriptures to mean nothing more than what can apply to us.
While there is not teaching of preexistence in scripture there is a teaching that Jesus is a human being. That point is made clear
Consider Mathew 8:20(KJV) which reads:
Quote And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Now this could mean that Jesus has the same spiritual nature as human kind like the title Son of God does but since the spiritual nature of man is corrupt I will conclude that is not the case. On the other hand the title Son of God could mean Jesus is a deity except for the fact there is only one Deity and so I conclude it is talking about his spiritual nature. The Trinitarians resolved that issue by their three in one tenet.
This brings me to Romans 1:3(KJV) which reads:
Quote Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
In this one Paul use the word “flesh” instead of “kind” as I did and he stated the kind more specifically then my generic term “human” as the David and his descendants are part of human group.
Now, the preferable method of decent in Hebrew culture is through the father and not through the mother so if Jesus was the physical child of God then he would not be David’s descendant. He is David’s descendant only because there is no Hebrew paternal line of decent. Mind you, that it is absurd to believe God has a physical child as God is spirit, and I do not mean a phantasm.
How do you explain an individual being conceived before their ancestor was conceived?
Now, Romans 1:4 goes on to read:
Quote And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Which can be confusing to those who do not realize the wages of sin is death and since Jesus did not sin he was not due the wages of sin and so could not be held in the grave. In other words Jesus is like God in the spiritual sense.
In Acts 2:22(KJV) which reads:
Quote
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:We are taught Jesus is a man.
Romans 5:15(KJV) reads:
Quote But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Once again we are taught Jesus is a man.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5(KJV) reads:
Quote For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Still again we are taught Jesus is a man.
That should be enough evidence to prove we are taught Jesus is a human being.
Philippians 2:7-8(KJV) reads:
Quote But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
So adding the fact Jesus is a man to what this scripture states we can conclude Jesus is a manlike man and a human appearing man.
Hebrew 2:17(KJV) reads:
Quote Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Here we are taught that Jesus was made like his brother human beings.
So why do you conclude he was made different than other human beings?
kerwin I am going to jump in here, because it upsets me when someone just ignores Scriptures. You said to t8 that there is not teaching of the preexisting of Jesus in Scriptures, yet there is.
Col. 1:15 says that He is the firstborn of all creation. If He was the firstborn of all creation, then He existed before men was created.
Rev. 3:14 also says that He was the firstborn of all creation.
And most of all by Jesus own words He said this in
John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” What glory was it that Jesus became after His death on the cross. He became a Spirit Being, and that is what He was before the world was, before He became a man. So to ever say that He was just a mere man, is wrong. Because He knew were He was before, otherwise He could have never said that. Also IMO God had to send someone like Him in order to save mankind. All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:23
And if Jesus would have been just a mere man, IMO He would have sinned also. But He was the Son of God. The firstborn of all creation….
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,Scripture says that Jesus Christ, the MAN anointed, was firstborn over all creation.
This does NOT mean that we need to change the identity of Jesus Christ to make sense out of the scripture.
The MAN born of Mary anointed with God's Spirit is the PERSON called firstborn over all creation. An immortal spirit being who existed before Jesus is NOT the PERSON being called the firstborn over all creation.
Scrip
ture GIVES us the understanding of firstborn son and how it would APPLY to Jesus Christ, who would obviously not be the first thing God created, because we know EXACTLY when Jesus was born and when he became the anointed.Scripture teaches that if the firstborn son is not worthy of the Father's inheritance the father can give it to a more worthy son. Adam had rule over all the earth but he lost it when he disobeyed. Jesus being the perfect man to obey God received from the Father the title of firstborn son, and he is the ruler over all creation. He has the RIGHTS of firstborn over all creation.
I don't mind repeating myself. Maybe one of these days you will directly respond properly to what I have presented.
The glory Jesus received was that of a man with corruptible flesh made into incorruptible flesh. The glory that Jesus had was that he fulfilled God's promises that existed before time began, which was eternal salvation to human beings, of whom he is the first of many brethren, being firstborn of the dead to receive eternal life.
There exists no glory of some sort of immortal creature we don't know about. There exist no scripture that says some creature came to earth and morphed himself into a human to die for us and then went back to what he was.
Jesus Christ was SENT, meaning the human being promised before time began was sent.
Our Savior came to us in the FLESH, but you say he had to be MORE than flesh to be able to not sin. Irene, what you say goes directly against scripture. Our Christ came to us in the flesh and saved us in the flesh. Likewise scripture says that as one man brought sin and death another man brought grace and the gift of righteousness leading to eternal life.
A MAN DID IT, not a MAN+, did it.
Irene wrote:
Quote kerwin I am going to jump in here, because it upsets me when someone just ignores Scriptures.
And yet I spent about 2 hours researching a number of scriptures that point out Jesus is a human being just like other human beings.
Irene wrote:
Quote And if Jesus would have been just a mere man, IMO He would have sinned also.
That is a false link as God did not create humankind to sin. Rather we were created upright and then went in search of many schemes.
Ecclesiastes 7:29(KJV) reads:
Quote Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Jesus simply chose not to follow the crowd but instead remained faithful to God which is why scripture declares he was tempted in every way just as we are; yet was without sin.
Hebrews 4:15(KJV) reads:
Quote For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
We can do the same with his spirit which he is willing to give us if we believe just as God gave Jesus his spirit.
Romans 8:15(KJV) reads:
Quote For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
So except for the spirit Jesus is a mere man but because of the spirit Jesus is declared to be the Anointed One of God as each believer is anointed through his teachings.
Irene wrote:
Quote Rev. 3:14 also says that He was the firstborn of all creation.
You are getting confused about which creation scripture is speaking of.
Colosians 1:18(KJV) reads:
Quote And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.’
Who is the dead?
Isn’t it those who were dead in the sins and trespassers and then made alive in the Anointed One?
Romans 6:11(KJV) reads:
Quote Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
These individuals and the word come are also referred in scripture as a new creation.
2 Corinthians 5:17(KJV) reads:
Quote Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
I am not going to address this post to any of you just to all, who do not believe that Jesus existed before He became a man. Both of you kerwin and Jodi interpret those Scriptures and do not go by what they say. Firstborn of all creation just means that. He was first in all. Not only that, He was also firstborn of the death, so that in all He may have preeminence, it says. Look up what preeminence means if you don't believe me.
Col. 1:18
I just can't understand why it is so hard for both of you to understand these clear Scriptures that say that He is the firstborn of ALL creation. There is also a Scripture that tells us that He emptied Himself to become like us. A Human being. But again in
John 17:5 He asked His Father this
“And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
What do you think this means? He had a glory, and what is He now, what glory is He. He is a Spirit being. That is what He was before the world was. Now tell me what is so hard to understand about this Scripture? ALSO Rev.. 3:14 and Col. 1:15-17 firstborn of all creation. It cannot say anything else unless you interpret this Scripture to your liking and don't except the way it is.
Are you sure you have been Baptized and have God's Holy Spirit? You sound like you never did…..because you simple don't believe Scripture they way they are written. Also look at some of the posts that t8 made…This is the last time I am responding to you both, there is no sense in this…..
Also kerwin what you stated about sinning. God knew that we were going to sin….All other Scriptures that you quote has nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus. Come on kerwin the Scripture in 2 Corinth. is talking about Humans and not about the preexisting of Jesus. You are looking for straws that are not there. I am shaking my head in unbelief. How you are interpreting Scripture, which I did not and you just don't believe. That my friend is not what it is…..
Col. 1:18 does not say what you did. It says
:He is the head of the body the Church, who is the beginning the firstborn of the dead, so that in all He may have preeminence. Firstborn of creation and firstborn of the dead…
look above in Col 1:15-17 what that says. Again you are ignoring those Scriptures…It is talking about Jesus it goes along with verse 15-17. Again you are interpreting what is not there…
Romans 6:11 it has to do with Humans and not Jesus. Hebrew 4:15 has nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus…..and everything to do with Jesus who was a Human being at the time. I told you that Jesus emptied Himself and became like us in every way. With all weakness as a Human like us. But He did know where He came from, otherwise He could not have said what He did in John 17:5
kerwin what do you think that I would not check those Scriptures out that you quote? All of them has nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus….
Math. 12:44 is talking about the Kingdom of Heaven…etc.
Luke 1:53 is talking about Humans
Ephesians 5:6 is talking about Humans and not Jesus.What does John 1:1 say….. another Scripture that tell us that Jesus was with His Father in the beginning before He became flesh verse 14.
Case closed…..
Irenegeorg
could you comment;to this
according to my understanding of the scriptures;Jesus was a normal man grew up normally,his spirit and mind was well aware of what the reason for his birth and being as a man was all about ,doing the will of his heavenly father,
at baptism in water this was the beginning of is total devotion 100% to his father,from here on ,Jesus is different,because now 'everything he will say and do would have a meaning,he now personified his father,because now all what the father has say by the Prophets will come be accomplish through Jesus.this is why he said' i come to do my fathers will' now the miracles that Jesus so called performed,was not performed by him but for him at his demand ,and this was to accomplish not his will but the will of his father,and those miracles will prove without doubt that he was the Messiah,the one that would come in the name of God ,the God of the nation of Israel.this is the reason why Jesus said 'believe the deeds i do, 'if you do not believe me”
so Jesus the man died as a man and suffert as a man to pay the ransom for us,and he did in deed.
and wen time came to go back to his father victorious of is offering ,he took back what was rightfully his the WORD at the right hand of God.
Irene wrote:
Quote All other Scriptures that you quote has nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus.
The message of the kingdom of heaven is a continuous whole and each part fits smoothly into the whole. I am attempting to display that whole and why you are misunderstanding what God is teaching you.
Irene wrote:
Quote Come on kerwin the Scripture in 2 Corinth. is talking about Humans and not about the preexisting of Jesus.
2 Corinthians 5:17 lets us know how Jesus is the firstborn of a new creation and not the old as you believe. In it we are taught that “old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new”. When it states “all things” it means everything including believing humans for Jesus is being made King of everything in heaven and on earth. Those that are not part of his kingdom will be cast out on that day.
I t is simple to conclude that Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation because 2 Corinthians 5:17 clearly states that those who believe are a new creation and Romans 8:29 clearly states Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers.
So, I was simply pointing out Colossians 1:15-17 is not about the first creation and thus does not support the preexistence tenet. It is just another way of teaching us what 2 Corinthians 5:17, and many other scriptures do.
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