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Irene,
Colossians 1:15-16 is speaking of the new creation of which Jesus is the first man and not the old creation of which Adam is the first man. Scripture tells us that Jesus is the first born of a new creation. Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:18, and Revelations 1:5 al confirm that. In other scriptures he is just referred to as the firstborn.
John 1:1-14 was explained to you by Gollomundi. His explanation is confirmed by Ephesians 1:4 and 1 Peter 1:20.
John 17:5 is really stating the same thing as John 1:1-14, Ephesians 1:4, and 1Peter 1:20. Jesus also expressed the same idea in John 17:24.
None of these supports preexisistance but rather they are an example of Jewish esotericism.
KERWIN
in what way was christ a new creation?
and if he was a new creation what was the purpose of is new creation?
To all
I think, the fact that this debate has been going on for almost two years shows, nobody is really interested in the truth, but rather has fun in keeping this debate going, just to see who can give the best argument; how ridiculous, and immature, I might say.
Georg
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 13 2010,01:00) To all I think, the fact that this debate has been going on for almost two years shows, nobody is really interested in the truth, but rather has fun in keeping this debate going, just to see who can give the best argument; how ridiculous, and immature, I might say.
Georg
Georg,Make sure you include yourself in the statement “nobody is interested in truth.”
thinker
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 12 2010,12:45) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2010,20:49) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 11 2010,10:14) Hi thethinker: Did you skip over what Jodi-Lee said here intentionally to avoid the issue?
Quote Abraham it says rejoiced to see the DAY of Christ. Abraham saw Christ and was glad. Did Abraham SEE a pre-existent no name son, and jump for joy? NO, he saw the future day of the MAN Christ, and in seeing that he knew how God would fulfill the promise He made to him, that from his seed all nations would be blessed. This is the way that I understand the scriptures as well. No, no pre-existent Jesus. He was fore-ordained.
Please explain what is meant by THEY DRANK OF THE SPIRTUAL ROCK THAT FOLLOWED THEM AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST?
How do you drink of a spiritual rock?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Jude 5 says that Jesus Christ saved them out of Egypt (ESV). The word “Jesus” is in the earliest Greek texts. And Exodus 23 says that it was Jehovah's Messenger who brought the people to into the place which God prepared.
20 “Behold, I send an Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Messenger will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.
25 “So you shall serve the LORD your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.1. It CLEARLY says that it was God's Messenger who guided them (vs. 20) .
2. It CLEARLY the Messenger shares Jehovah's name (vs. 21)
3. It CLEARLY says that the Messenger is called “The Lord your God” (vs. 25) So you shall serve the LORD your God[/b], and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.God is speaking saying that “He” (the Lord your God, that is, the Messenger) will bless your bread and your water so that “I” (Jehovah) may take away sickness from the midst of you.
If this Messenger who guided the people and who shared Jehovah's name was not Jesus, then who was it?
thinker
Hi Thethinker:You evaded my question. What does it mean that “they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them and that rock was Christ”?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Maty,
One thing is for sure. You can't drink of anything that does not exist whether it be corporeal or spiritual. Or have you abandoned all common sense?Now answer my question. If the Messenger who guided them was not Christ, then who was it (Exodus 23:20-25)?
“Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.” Jude 5 ESV
btw, You accuse me of ignoring Jodi Lee. But I answered Jodi Lee. I told her that her premise that it was the “plan of God” they drank from was unbelievable. She says also that it was the “plan of God” that came down from heaven. This is intellectual suicide.
Rational people don't entertain such nonsense.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 13 2010,01:26) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 13 2010,01:00) To all I think, the fact that this debate has been going on for almost two years shows, nobody is really interested in the truth, but rather has fun in keeping this debate going, just to see who can give the best argument; how ridiculous, and immature, I might say.
Georg
Georg,Make sure you include yourself in the statement “nobody is interested in truth.”
thinker
thinker
You should be a defence lawyer.Georg
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 13 2010,01:00) To all I think, the fact that this debate has been going on for almost two years shows, nobody is really interested in the truth, but rather has fun in keeping this debate going, just to see who can give the best argument; how ridiculous, and immature, I might say.
Georg
Georg,The fact of the matter is God calls people to the truth, others are in blindness and cannot SEE until God calls them as well.
What we have occurring on this forum is spiritual warfare between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God.
God uses the blind as tools for instruction to those who He is calling into the truth, which is a process and can often be quite a struggle.
Who are those being called by God and who are those who have been calling themselves to God would be a worthless and endless debate.
False doctrine comes out of those who have called themselves to God, and are thus limited by carnal understanding.
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 12 2010,09:48) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 13 2010,01:26) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 13 2010,01:00) To all I think, the fact that this debate has been going on for almost two years shows, nobody is really interested in the truth, but rather has fun in keeping this debate going, just to see who can give the best argument; how ridiculous, and immature, I might say.
Georg
Georg,Make sure you include yourself in the statement “nobody is interested in truth.”
thinker
thinker You should be a defence lawyer.Georg
GeorgeWhy because he made a good point!
Your statement of course was meant to not include yourself, but in making the statement you show yourself as being an elitist, IMO, which is okay, except to accuse others for holding on to their truth and not being interested in the truth, just like you do “your truth” is circular reasoning isn't it?
You have been here a long time and I havn't seen you change your beliefs in any way, have you?
Blessings WJ
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 12 2010,11:38) Georg, The fact of the matter is God calls people to the truth, others are in blindness and cannot SEE until God calls them as well.
JodiLooking in the mirror again, eh?
Blessings WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 12 2010,04:10) Jodi Lee said: Quote You want to divert to a discussion about how Jesus is not like Moses? How truly pathetic!
Jodi,All you have to do is show that Jesus was like Moses. I gave you Hebrews 3 and you didn't even acknowledge it. Hebrews says that Jesus was counted worthy of “more glory” than Moses. He is counted worty of the glory that God as the builder receives! Yet you just pass over it!
You misapply the statement in Deuteronomy 18. Moses was not speaking about Christ. He was speaking about His immediates successor which was Joshua. And here is the kicker. Peter cites what Moses said and does not apply the statement to Jesus. In Acts 3 Peter applies the expression “a prophet like me” to each prophet that came in the various generations and foretold the Christ:
…and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
There it is! Peter explicitly said that the statement “a prophet like me” referred to ALL the prophets that spoke of the Christ since the age began. You are given to your “pretexting” method of interpretation.
There is not one scripture which says that Jesus was like Moses. Hebrews explicitly says that Jesus was SUPERIOR to Moses. It is your anti-Christian, Arian and Gnostic views that require that Jesus be like Moses.
Jodi Lee:
Quote Jude 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. In the above verses we have the Lord God, and then we have the Lord Christ. Knowing that the Lord Christ represents the MAN who died on the cross, the Christ that which was made by the Father from the MAN Jesus, it should be obvious that the final “lord” we see in verse 5 could not possible represent the Lord Jesus, it would in fact obviously be the Lord God.
The above text you give is based in Greek manuscripts which are later and therefore not as reliable. The older manuscripts read thus:The ESV:
4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
The NASB is the same on verse 4:
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
The NIV concurs:
4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[a] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
The three translations I give above are based in OLDER and MORE RELIABLE manuscripts. The text from which you quote came from later manuscripts which do not not agree with Exodus 23:20-25. Jehovah said that His Messenger would guide the people:
20 “Behold, I send My Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars. 25 “So you shall serve the LORD your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.”
There it is! It was Jehovah's Messenger which guided them and the oldest Greek manuscripts on Jude 4-5 agree. Your text does not agree with Exodus 23!
IF THE MESSENGER WHO GUIDED THE PEOPLE WAS NOT JESUS AS JUDE 4-5 SAYS, THEN WHO WAS IT?
You need to educate yourself in these things. More importantly you need to learn how to interpret the scriptures in their context. Moses' statement that there shall be “a prophet like me” is no where applied to Christ in the Bible. It applied first of all to Moses' immediate successor. Then Peter applied it to “that prophet” which appeared in each successive generation of Israel's history who foretold the Christ.
Again, you must make Christ “like Moses” because to you He was a mere “human being.” This puts you outside true Christianity.
thinker
JackExcellent post!
Eisegesis seems to be the order of the day for many here!
They boast against what we preach yet they do not back up their assumptions with the scriptures.
Most of them know nothing of the Greek and Hebrew and do not even know how to do research on given text yet they place themselves above the experts in Greek grammer and the translators of the scriptures!
They have a birds eye view of the scriptures, meaning they take one text out of its context of the entire word of God and make it say what they want to support their preconcieved manmade doctrines!
Not a single one of them can address the Greek for passages proving Jesus preexistence, but choose rather to hold on to their false doctrines!
Most of their doctrines are generated by earlier heretics like Arian and the modern day “Arians” the JWs.
Have you noticed brother how that most of their doctrines are line upon line in agreement with Watchtowers doctrine concerning Jesus being
God, and the Holy Spirit, and the immortal spirit/soul of man as well as many others?Jesus made us a promise that he would guide us into all truth and gave us the commission to teach and preach in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Matt 28:18-20
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: “but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand“; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. Mk 4:11, 12
Blessings WJ
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 11 2010,18:33) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 11 2010,03:42) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 10 2010,21:00) Quote (chosenone @ Feb. 10 2010,14:54) Hi all.
May I give my opinion? I realise that opinions vary, and Gene, I know you and I agree on most issues, but I'm afraid I will have to disagree with this one. Here is my take on this:In Eph.1:9-10 …9 making known to us the secret of His (God) will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —In this scripture, God says “too head up “ALL IN THE CHRIST” meaning 'all will be created through Christ, by the power of God'.
Other scriptures:
Col.1:15-16 …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
This is a good description of Him (Jesus) … “Firstborn of every creature” meaning just that,”firstborn”.
And “all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him God)”And finally Rev.3:14 …14 “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original: (Jesus)
Notice “and God's Creative Original”. Any thing 'made', if it the “original”, is the first one, say a car model, or any thing made that will be reproduced, such as jewelry, clothes, tools, etc. Always the “original” is the first made, the rest are copies.Lastly, After Adam and Eve ate of the fobidden fruit, in Genesis 3:22 …”Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil.
Notice “becomes as one of us”, this “us” has to be Jesus, who else could could He (God) be speaking too?I do believe in Jesus pre existance, He was with God, His Creator, before he came down to earth as a human, born from Mary, His earthly mother. He (Jesus) returned to His Father (God), after His death and resurrection. His “ascention.”
Just my opinion, what do you think?
God Bless, Jerry.
It is always interesting to me to see how many people agree and disagree on this subject. Whether you give good Scriptures or not it does not matter. Even when Jesus Himself is saying this in
John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was.” We know that Jesus is in Heaven as a Spirit Being. He said that is what He was before He became a man and that is were He wanted to go back to.
So I agree with you on all the other Scriptures you gave us.
Peace and Love Irene
Yes it is truly amazing. At least I can agree with that.Let me ask you Irene, is not the glory IN Christ that of a MAN made perfect able to receive eternal life? Are we not told that we likewise will share in the same glory?
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Romans 8:27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
-but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in the MAN anointed with the Holy Spirit Jesus the HUMAN BEING born of Mary, BEFORE TIME BEGAN.
There is not a scripture that declares that God sent a spirit son to be morphed into a human, die for us, and then go back to being a spirit being. IMO this goes against direct scriptures that tell us otherwise, and in your doctrine you defile the glory of the Father and His Son!!
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know– 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'
Acts 13:34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.' 35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming…..36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain–perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh an
d bones as you see I have.”Did Jesus just appear an immortal man JUST FOR SHOW. What scripture states that after Jesus was raised an immortal human being with flesh and bones he turned into some other creature?There is none, what we have are scriptures that declare he is STILL a MAN, and that he is still of the seed of David.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one gloryof the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Jesus was born a NATURAL man and He BECAME a Heavenly MAN, one who's flesh can no longer see corruption but is incorruptible.
The above shows quite directly IMO that the glory that Jesus received was the glory of human flesh made incorruptible. This glory we are told SPECIFICALLY existed BEFORE time began in God's promise of eternal salvation unto man.
So what do we make of the fact scripture says flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom? Is this suppose to mean that flesh and blood itself is EVIL, of course not. Jesus is raised with incorruptible flesh not through the PROFIT of the flesh but through the work of the Holy Spirit IN the flesh. Our own flesh and blood cannot CAUSE us to inherit salvation or the Kingdom of God, it must come from heaven, it must come from God's Spirit renewing man's mind.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
The glory that Jesus received is the SAME glory we shall receive, which is a mortal body made into an Immortal BODY, made of flesh and bones!!
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
So unfortunate that the glory of Christ is turned into shame, not a surprise though, scripture does warn that the truth of Christ would be corrupted through lies. IMO pre-existence is the PERFECT example.
Jodi! Your problem is that you ignore Scriptures that state that He came from His Father in Heaven to do His will. That He is the firstborn of all creation and that the Father gave Him the right to create all after He came forth from the Father. He is a literal Son and not just a mere man from the dust of the earth. You give us Scriptures that have nothing to do with Jesus preexisting at all. When you want to prove something it has to do with the subject at hand. That's all. I really did not expect you or Gene ever to understand that……Also you really believe that He would not have sinned if He did not know what was at stake? I don't at all.
COL. 1:15-18 TELLS IT ALL. He IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION AND He IS THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEATH. SO THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE. MEANING HE WAS FIRST IN ALL. That is what preeminence means.
And if you don't believe John 17:5 are you not calling Jesus then a liar? He said He had a glory with His Father before the world was. If that glory would only be a plan, is that what He went back to? No not that I know. He was a Spirit being before, and He is a Spirit Being now. The only difference now He will never die again.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…..
verse 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world…. And read chosen– one too. Good Scriptures also. Also have you ever seen a 12 year old go into a Temple or Church and preach the way Jesus did at that age. You know I love the Proverbs, even though some say it is Wisdom speaking and being born. Which makes no sense at all. God the Father always had wisdom, why would He have to create it first. read Proverbs 8:22-30 good Scriptures. Did you ever hear that wisdom is a master craftsman? No. Mr. Armstrong used to say that Jesus was the Spokesman for God. Not everything Mr. Armstrong taught us was wrong. Also in Genesis it says Us and Our that created all. Who was it?
Also John 1:1 Since that Word became flesh we know that it is Jesus that was the Word.
This next Scripture I find so important
Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the WORD OF GOD. Read on it says that He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
There is no doubt what soever in my mind that Jesus was created long before this World existed.
Peace and Love Irene
Jodi! I am bringuing this to the front, becasue you have not responded to it… I would like an answer to especially Joihn 17:5
IreneQuote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 13 2010,04:39) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 11 2010,18:33) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 11 2010,03:42) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 10 2010,21:00) Quote (chosenone @ Feb. 10 2010,14:54) Hi all.
May I give my opinion? I realise that opinions vary, and Gene, I know you and I agree on most issues, but I'm afraid I will have to disagree with this one. Here is my take on this:In Eph.1:9-10 …9 making known to us the secret of His (God) will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —In this scripture, God says “too head up “ALL IN THE CHRIST” meaning 'all will be created through Christ, by the power of God'.
Other scriptures:
Col.1:15-16 …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
This is a good description of Him (Jesus) … “Firstborn of every creature” meaning just that,”firstborn”.
And “all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him God)”And finally Rev.3:14 …14 “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original: (Jesus)
Notice “and God's Creative Original”. Any thing 'made', if it the “original”, is the first one, say a car model, or any thing made that will be reproduced, such as jewelry, clothes, tools, etc. Always the “original” is the first made, the rest are copies.Lastly, After Adam and Eve ate of the fobidden fruit, in Genesis 3:22 …”Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil.
Notice “becomes as one of us”, this “us” has to be Jesus, who else could could He (God) be speaking too?I do believe in Jesus pre existance, He was with God, His Creator, before he came down to earth as a human, born from Mary, His earthly mother. He (Jesus) returned to His Father (God), after His death and resurrection. His “ascention.”
Just my opinion, what do you think?
God Bless, Jerry.
It is always interesting to me to see how many people agree and disagree on this subject. Whether you give good Scriptures or not it does not matter. Even when Jesus Himself is saying this in
John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was.” We know that Jesus is in Heaven as a Spirit Being. He said that is what He was before He became a man and that is were He wanted to go back to.
So I agree with you on all the other Scriptures you gave us.
Peace and Love Irene
Yes it is truly amazing. At least I can agree with that.Let me ask you Irene, is not the glory IN Christ that of a MAN made perfect able to receive eternal life? Are we not told that we likewise will share in the same glory?
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Romans 8:27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
-but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in the MAN anointed with the Holy Spirit Jesus the HUMAN BEING born of Mary, BEFORE TIME BEGAN.
There is not a scripture that declares that God sent a spirit son to be morphed into a human, die for us, and then go back to being a spirit being. IMO this goes against direct scriptures that tell us otherwise, and in your doctrine you defile the glory of the Father and His Son!!
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know– 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'
Acts 13:34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.' 35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming…..36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain–perhaps wheat or some
other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Did Jesus just appear an immortal man JUST FOR SHOW. What scripture states that after Jesus was raised an immortal human being with flesh and bones he turned into some other creature?There is none, what we have are scriptures that declare he is STILL a MAN, and that he is still of the seed of David.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one gloryof the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Jesus was born a NATURAL man and He BECAME a Heavenly MAN, one who's flesh can no longer see corruption but is incorruptible.
The above shows quite directly IMO that the glory that Jesus received was the glory of human flesh made incorruptible. This glory we are told SPECIFICALLY existed BEFORE time began in God's promise of eternal salvation unto man.
So what do we make of the fact scripture says flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom? Is this suppose to mean that flesh and blood itself is EVIL, of course not. Jesus is raised with incorruptible flesh not through the PROFIT of the flesh but through the work of the Holy Spirit IN the flesh. Our own flesh and blood cannot CAUSE us to inherit salvation or the Kingdom of God, it must come from heaven, it must come from God's Spirit renewing man's mind.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
The glory that Jesus received is the SAME glory we shall receive, which is a mortal body made into an Immortal BODY, made of flesh and bones!!
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
So unfortunate that the glory of Christ is turned into shame, not a surprise though, scripture does warn that the truth of Christ would be corrupted through lies. IMO pre-existence is the PERFECT example.
Jodi! Your problem is that you ignore Scriptures that state that He came from His Father in Heaven to do His will. That He is the firstborn of all creation and that the Father gave Him the right to create all after He came forth from the Father. He is a literal Son and not just a mere man from the dust of the earth. You give us Scriptures that have nothing to do with Jesus preexisting at all. When you want to prove something it has to do with the subject at hand. That's all. I really did not expect you or Gene ever to understand that……Also you really believe that He would not have sinned if He did not know what was at stake? I don't at all.
COL. 1:15-18 TELLS IT ALL. He IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION AND He IS THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEATH. SO THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE. MEANING HE WAS FIRST IN ALL. That is what preeminence means.
And if you don't believe John 17:5 are you not calling Jesus then a liar? He said He had a glory with His Father before the world was. If that glory would only be a plan, is that what He went back to? No not that I know. He was a Spirit being before, and He is a Spirit Being now. The only difference now He will never die again.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…..
verse 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world…. And read chosen– one too. Good Scriptures also. Also have you ever seen a 12 year old go into a Temple or Church and preach the way Jesus did at that age. You know I love the Proverbs, even though some say it is Wisdom speaking and being born. Which makes no sense at all. God the Father always had wisdom, why would He have to create it first. read Proverbs 8:22-30 good Scriptures. Did you ever hear that wisdom is a master craftsman? No. Mr. Armstrong used to say that Jesus was the Spokesman for God. Not everything Mr. Armstrong taught us was wrong. Also in Genesis it says Us and Our that created all. Who was it?
Also John 1:1 Since that Word became flesh we know that it is Jesus that was the Word.
This next Scripture I find so important
Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the WORD OF GOD. Read on it says that He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
There is no doubt what soever in my mind that Jesus was created long before this World existed.
Peace and Love Irene
Jodi! I am bringuing this to the front, becasue you have not responded to it… I would like an answer to especially Joihn 17:5
Irene
Irene I have already responded numerous times to your scriptures in FULL detail. You have always completely ignored them. Why should I repeat myself just so you can go and ignore them again?Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 12 2010,13:23) Irene I have already responded numerous times to your scriptures in FULL detail. You have always completely ignored them. Why should I repeat myself just so you can go and ignore them again?
This is probably true because I have responded to many scriptures that Irene has posted as so-called proof against the Trinity but she keeps posting the same as if it is proof or as if she never even read my response!WJ
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 13 2010,05:23) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 13 2010,04:39) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 11 2010,18:33) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 11 2010,03:42) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 10 2010,21:00) Quote (chosenone @ Feb. 10 2010,14:54) Hi all.
May I give my opinion? I realise that opinions vary, and Gene, I know you and I agree on most issues, but I'm afraid I will have to disagree with this one. Here is my take on this:In Eph.1:9-10 …9 making known to us the secret of His (God) will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —In this scripture, God says “too head up “ALL IN THE CHRIST” meaning 'all will be created through Christ, by the power of God'.
Other scriptures:
Col.1:15-16 …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
This is a good description of Him (Jesus) … “Firstborn of every creature” meaning just that,”firstborn”.
And “all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him God)”And finally Rev.3:14 …14 “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original: (Jesus)
Notice “and God's Creative Original”. Any thing 'made', if it the “original”, is the first one, say a car model, or any thing made that will be reproduced, such as jewelry, clothes, tools, etc. Always the “original” is the first made, the rest are copies.Lastly, After Adam and Eve ate of the fobidden fruit, in Genesis 3:22 …”Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil.
Notice “becomes as one of us”, this “us” has to be Jesus, who else could could He (God) be speaking too?I do believe in Jesus pre existance, He was with God, His Creator, before he came down to earth as a human, born from Mary, His earthly mother. He (Jesus) returned to His Father (God), after His death and resurrection. His “ascention.”
Just my opinion, what do you think?
God Bless, Jerry.
It is always interesting to me to see how many people agree and disagree on this subject. Whether you give good Scriptures or not it does not matter. Even when Jesus Himself is saying this in
John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was.” We know that Jesus is in Heaven as a Spirit Being. He said that is what He was before He became a man and that is were He wanted to go back to.
So I agree with you on all the other Scriptures you gave us.
Peace and Love Irene
Yes it is truly amazing. At least I can agree with that.Let me ask you Irene, is not the glory IN Christ that of a MAN made perfect able to receive eternal life? Are we not told that we likewise will share in the same glory?
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Romans 8:27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
-but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in the MAN anointed with the Holy Spirit Jesus the HUMAN BEING born of Mary, BEFORE TIME BEGAN.
There is not a scripture that declares that God sent a spirit son to be morphed into a human, die for us, and then go back to being a spirit being. IMO this goes against direct scriptures that tell us otherwise, and in your doctrine you defile the glory of the Father and His Son!!
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know– 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'
Acts 13:34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.' 35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afte
rward those who are Christ's at His coming…..36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain–perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Did Jesus just appear an immortal man JUST FOR SHOW. What scripture states that after Jesus was raised an immortal human being with flesh and bones he turned into some other creature?There is none, what we have are scriptures that declare he is STILL a MAN, and that he is still of the seed of David.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one gloryof the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Jesus was born a NATURAL man and He BECAME a Heavenly MAN, one who's flesh can no longer see corruption but is incorruptible.
The above shows quite directly IMO that the glory that Jesus received was the glory of human flesh made incorruptible. This glory we are told SPECIFICALLY existed BEFORE time began in God's promise of eternal salvation unto man.
So what do we make of the fact scripture says flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom? Is this suppose to mean that flesh and blood itself is EVIL, of course not. Jesus is raised with incorruptible flesh not through the PROFIT of the flesh but through the work of the Holy Spirit IN the flesh. Our own flesh and blood cannot CAUSE us to inherit salvation or the Kingdom of God, it must come from heaven, it must come from God's Spirit renewing man's mind.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
The glory that Jesus received is the SAME glory we shall receive, which is a mortal body made into an Immortal BODY, made of flesh and bones!!
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
So unfortunate that the glory of Christ is turned into shame, not a surprise though, scripture does warn that the truth of Christ would be corrupted through lies. IMO pre-existence is the PERFECT example.
Jodi! Your problem is that you ignore Scriptures that state that He came from His Father in Heaven to do His will. That He is the firstborn of all creation and that the Father gave Him the right to create all after He came forth from the Father. He is a literal Son and not just a mere man from the dust of the earth. You give us Scriptures that have nothing to do with Jesus preexisting at all. When you want to prove something it has to do with the subject at hand. That's all. I really did not expect you or Gene ever to understand that……Also you really believe that He would not have sinned if He did not know what was at stake? I don't at all.
COL. 1:15-18 TELLS IT ALL. He IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION AND He IS THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEATH. SO THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE. MEANING HE WAS FIRST IN ALL. That is what preeminence means.
And if you don't believe John 17:5 are you not calling Jesus then a liar? He said He had a glory with His Father before the world was. If that glory would only be a plan, is that what He went back to? No not that I know. He was a Spirit being before, and He is a Spirit Being now. The only difference now He will never die again.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…..
verse 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world…. And read chosen– one too. Good Scriptures also. Also have you ever seen a 12 year old go into a Temple or Church and preach the way Jesus did at that age. You know I love the Proverbs, even though some say it is Wisdom speaking and being born. Which makes no sense at all. God the Father always had wisdom, why would He have to create it first. read Proverbs 8:22-30 good Scriptures. Did you ever hear that wisdom is a master craftsman? No. Mr. Armstrong used to say that Jesus was the Spokesman for God. Not everything Mr. Armstrong taught us was wrong. Also in Genesis it says Us and Our that created all. Who was it?
Also John 1:1 Since that Word became flesh we know that it is Jesus that was the Word.
This next Scripture I find so important
Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the WORD OF GOD. Read on it says that He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
There is no doubt what soever in my mind that Jesus was created long before this World existed.
Peace and Love Irene
Jodi! I am bringuing this to the front, becasue you have not responded to it… I would like an answer to especially Joihn 17:5
Irene
Irene I have already responded numerous times to your scriptures in FULL detail. You have always completely ignored them. Why should I repeat myself just so you can go and ignore them again?
No Jodi, Yes, I know John 1:1 is just the plan of God and that plan became flesh and Jesus did not say what He did in John 17:5. all is just a plan and Satan is not real, it is in our minds, Am I getting close? And Col. 1:15-17 is not there. Rev. 3:14 does not say what it does. Just my Scriptures are true. That is Jodi.s idea of proving all things…Did I miss anything…..
IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 13 2010,05:45) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 12 2010,13:23) Irene I have already responded numerous times to your scriptures in FULL detail. You have always completely ignored them. Why should I repeat myself just so you can go and ignore them again?
This is probably true because I have responded to many scriptures that Irene has posted as so-called proof against the Trinity but she keeps posting the same as if it is proof or as if she never even read my response!WJ
W.J. Show me, because I will never ignore others. but when I put up a scripture and they ignore it, I do the same….
So don't be to quick to judge me..BTW look at the post that Jodi made, She just puts other Scriptures up that has nothing to do with this subject…. probably is no prove show me were I did that, and I will apologize. .IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 13 2010,05:45) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 12 2010,13:23) Irene I have already responded numerous times to your scriptures in FULL detail. You have always completely ignored them. Why should I repeat myself just so you can go and ignore them again?
This is probably true because I have responded to many scriptures that Irene has posted as so-called proof against the Trinity but she keeps posting the same as if it is proof or as if she never even read my response!WJ
W.J. Look on page 387 I made a post to you and you did not even respond at all to me. So much for me not answering you…
I will go evn further back and look…Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 13 2010,05:45) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 12 2010,13:23) Irene I have already responded numerous times to your scriptures in FULL detail. You have always completely ignored them. Why should I repeat myself just so you can go and ignore them again?
This is probably true because I have responded to many scriptures that Irene has posted as so-called proof against the Trinity but she keeps posting the same as if it is proof or as if she never even read my response!WJ
I went back all the way to page 349 were we are having a debate, read it. I addressed you and thinker because I found some other Scriptures in my Husbands Book and gave them to you both. You came back and said:” Why are you against me. I answered that on the same page.
Then terraricca said something like you doing thinks like that since you have a Dr. in read it yourself. I am very disappointed in you, I even said that I liked you as a person. Well I am changing my mind. Unless you can come up with a proof, I will never say anything to you again……
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