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Hi borther Gene,
This is the ambiguity created by the N.T writers which caused many christinas to stumble and fall in this another trap of preexistence. Therefore I humbly request you to read Jewish views on New testament you will realise that the material in N.T is completly against the Jewish Monotheism of the Hebrew Bible. Please read some books on Jewish interpretation of N.T like “Faith Strengthened”, “Twenty Six reasons” etc. I also request you that none of Christian sects could interpret our N.T in a proper way everybody is biased one way or the another. They are not revealing full truth.Love and peace
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,08:16) Hi borther Gene,
This is the ambiguity created by the N.T writers which caused many christinas to stumble and fall in this another trap of preexistence. Therefore I humbly request you to read Jewish views on New testament you will realise that the material in N.T is completly against the Jewish Monotheism of the Hebrew Bible. Please read some books on Jewish interpretation of N.T like “Faith Strengthened”, “Twenty Six reasons” etc. I also request you that none of Christian sect could interpret our N.T in a proper way everybody is biased one way or the another. They are not revealing full truth.Love and peace
dam
You do realize that it is ambiguous on purpose. Jesus even tells you why he was ambiguous and at least some of his students seemed to have copied his method of teaching.Mind you language is difficult to correctly interpret in the first place when you cannot get corrected by the one you are communicating with.
I have certainly meant one think and someone has thought I meant something else often enough.
goll
Jewish poeple are all confused ,they have so many books on the same thing it is not funny ,the truth i find is in the bible OT and NT,and if you have a problem of understanding it i know why to .
i know that the call of Christ is personal ,and if you do what the scriptures says you will be with God ,
but if you go to a blind teacher you will both fall in the hole and perish in your sins.Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,08:16)
Hi borther Gene,
This is the ambiguity created by the N.T writers which caused many christinas to stumble and fall in this another trap of preexistence. Therefore I humbly request you to read Jewish views on New testament you will realise that the material in N.T is completly against the Jewish Monotheism of the Hebrew Bible. Please read some books on Jewish interpretation of N.T like “Faith Strengthened”, “Twenty Six reasons” etc. I also request you that none of Christian sect could interpret our N.T in a proper way everybody is biased one way or the another. They are not revealing full truth.Love and peace
damjust a reminder it is God who saves not men or books or teachers,it is the word in your hearth who produces the deeds of the love of God.that save us.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2010,02:00) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,08:16) Hi borther Gene,
This is the ambiguity created by the N.T writers which caused many christinas to stumble and fall in this another trap of preexistence. Therefore I humbly request you to read Jewish views on New testament you will realise that the material in N.T is completly against the Jewish Monotheism of the Hebrew Bible. Please read some books on Jewish interpretation of N.T like “Faith Strengthened”, “Twenty Six reasons” etc. I also request you that none of Christian sect could interpret our N.T in a proper way everybody is biased one way or the another. They are not revealing full truth.Love and peace
dam
You do realize that it is ambiguous on purpose. Jesus even tells you why he was ambiguous and at least some of his students seemed to have copied his method of teaching.Mind you language is difficult to correctly interpret in the first place when you cannot get corrected by the one you are communicating with.
I have certainly meant one think and someone has thought I meant something else often enough.
Hi brother Kerwin,
Please tell me frankly, could you prove your logics on non-preexistence so far here? Could you convince one trinitarian or Arian by your so called logics and interpretations? You seem to think that all that is written in N.T is free from errors and bias.goll
the NT is by it selves complete ,the only reasons that some do not agree with it ,is that they like there ego want to like God ,be like the apostles ,but that is not possible unless you do exactly what Christ says.
some of them and most ,do not follow the scriptures ,they look for advantages in there community to be regarded as the pillar of the entourage so to speak.pharisees style.they will never come to know Christ or truth.
Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 03 2010,20:19) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 01 2010,12:56) Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 23 2010,20:23) Hi Sis Irene,
Good morning to you. Believing in Jesus is only according to our Christian scriptures not according to any Hebrew scriptures. Once you know that Jesus is not God there end the matter you need not depend on any man to reach God. God is directly available to any one who sincerely approach Him. No Jew requires a mediator to approach God.
Adam! I want to say something else to you. First there is no trinity. Prove is
Deut. 4:35
Deut. 6:4 1 Corinth. 8:4
Ephesians 4:6
And by Jesus own words in John 14:28 …. My Father is greater then I.
The trinity doctrine is a man made doctrine and not of God. It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian that came up with it. The first Christians were tortured and killed the first three century and it was Constantine who put an end to it. But He changed the Sabbath worship to Sunday. Also we do not go by God's Calendar, but the Roman. We don't keep any of the Holy Days listed in Lev. 23. But I also have proven to myself that the Sabbath is a sign between God and the Children of Israel. Exodus 31:16-17 and the Old Covenant in Exodus 34:27-28.
The Jewish people of today are not the Jewish people of the first century. Many did become Christians. But not all. here is a Scripture in Rev. that states that those that call them self Jewish are not at all, and I am not saying anything else about that. Read it yourself and search it out.You say that in the Hebrew Jesus is not the Messiah, yet you never give us any Scripture that proves that.
In Isaiah it talks about Jesus many times. So some have said that He is not mentioned in the Old Test. which is not so.
Then some will say because I believe in the preexisting of Jesus, I should believe in the trinity. Wrong, the one has nothing to do with the other.
As far as not coming in the Believers section, yes. If you do not believe in Jesus you do not have the Father either. Kejonnn had to leave and that is so, so should you be treated differently? If you don't believe in Jesus , you should not be aloud to be in the Believers section, that would only be fair to Kejonn. Also there is Scriptures that state that Jesus is God.
Hebrew 1:8 and John 1:1 But when we understand that He is the Son of God and God is a title we should not have any problems with the word God. You say no Jew needs a Mediator to approach God. You do know that they have to have a High Priest to approach God don't you? He offers up the Sacrifice for their Sins. We don't have to do that. We go through Jesus to ask for the forgiveness of our Sins our self, we don't need a High Priest, Jesus is. There is a big difference here. In one of the posts you make the statement that you are so fed up with us. And I responded to leave and go to the Jews if you like them better. I still say that. The Jew's killed my Savior and they will not admit that. Also I know some Jewish People and we used to have a Jewish Bakery and the Rabbi is the Boss. Don't do anything that is not Kosher. Even using a S.O.S. Pad to clean is wrong. I know all about their practises and I do not agree with their practices.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Sis Irene,
You say that I am no more considered as a believer. I want to ask you what is the definition of a believer, whether it is about believing in God or not?
If yes I am already a strong believer of one and only God. How can you nullify this truth. As I have already told Christianity made mess of every thing about God which was so clear in Hebrew scriptures that there is no God but One. What is this Father/Son/Holy Spirit zimmic? Please understand God from a orthodox Jewish point of view you will not be confused about God any more.Love and peace
Adam
Adam You better read my post again, I said if you don't believe in Jesus being our Messiah and our Savior you should not be in the Believers section….. And also you nick pick that out of all other Scriptures that I gave you….Again kejonnn was budded out because He too did not believe in Jesus being the Messiah. Whatever t8 or Nick does about it is their problem. But I repeat, IF IF IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS BEING OUR SAVIOR AND MESSIAH KEJONN HAD TO GO AND IMO YOU SHOULD TOO. If you don;t like that, then change your mind and learn that Jesus is mentioned in the Old Test. in Isaiah. Also if You deny Jesus you deny the Father. You cant have one without the other and that is Scripture saying that not me. Take it up with Scripture and not me…..
Hebrew 1:8-9 tells us that the Father is calling Jesus God and also in John 1:1 the Word is God and that Word in verse 14 became flesh, so we know it is Jesus in the Beginning…..And you are the one who is confused and not me, Brother……Stop listening to the Jewish Rabbi……
Peace be with you, you need it, IreneHi Sis Irene,
That is the fate and paradox of Christianity. One can believe God is trinity and other can believe God is binity yet others can believe God is unity in diversity. Confusion after confusion. preexistence and no-preexistence, first created and not-created, God and no-god, born before all eternity and had beginning, the list goes on and on. Where is the end?You blame me, Kejonn and Mandy for refuting the basic flaws of Christianity. I only bring the honest arguments not any false allegations. You don't want to accept the errors in our N.T. What I can do? This forum is meant for releasing the misconceptions in our beliefs but not to judge anybody. I am only seeking truth not finding fault with any individual. Hope you will understand my agony.
Peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2010,20:42) Hi Sis Irene,
That is the fate and paradox of Christianity. One can believe God is trinity and other can believe God is binity yet others can believe God is unity in diversity. Confusion after confusion. preexistence and no-preexistence, first created and not-created, God and no-god, born before all eternity and had beginning, the list goes on and on. Where is the end?You blame me, Kejonn and Mandy for refuting the basic flaws of Christianity. I only bring the honest arguments not any false allegations. You don't want to accept the errors in our N.T. What I can do. This forum is meant for releasing the misconceptions in our beliefs but not to judge anybody. I am only seeking truth not finding fault with any individual. Hope you will understand my agony.
Peace to you
Adam
Scriptures please. prove all things….You are in agony because you are confused. And I am blaming no one. But if you come on a Christian site and want to tell us about the Jewish understanding you have to expect rebuttal… I know Jewish People like I said before. Their practice's are not Christian, and if you want to believe them then you have to join them, but don't come on here and tell us what to do, and that the Scriptures are wrong. There are a few I agree, however when I find more then one the same then it is the truth. We are not under the Old Covenant and if you have an issue with that not all believe the same way, think about what Scriptures say about that. Not all are called to understand all at the present. Satan is still around, but when Jesus will come again, only the truth will be taught. Satan will be put away. You don't see the whole picture in all of this, and that is what is getting in your way….. IreneQuote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2010,12:26) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2010,02:00) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,08:16) Hi borther Gene,
This is the ambiguity created by the N.T writers which caused many christinas to stumble and fall in this another trap of preexistence. Therefore I humbly request you to read Jewish views on New testament you will realise that the material in N.T is completly against the Jewish Monotheism of the Hebrew Bible. Please read some books on Jewish interpretation of N.T like “Faith Strengthened”, “Twenty Six reasons” etc. I also request you that none of Christian sect could interpret our N.T in a proper way everybody is biased one way or the another. They are not revealing full truth.Love and peace
dam
You do realize that it is ambiguous on purpose. Jesus even tells you why he was ambiguous and at least some of his students seemed to have copied his method of teaching.Mind you language is difficult to correctly interpret in the first place when you cannot get corrected by the one you are communicating with.
I have certainly meant one think and someone has thought I meant something else often enough.
Hi brother Kerwin,
Please tell me frankly, could you prove your logics on non-preexistence so far here? Could you convince one trinitarian or Arian by your so called logics and interpretations? You seem to think that all that is written in N.T is free from errors and bias.
There are individuals who choose to believe the world is flat despite all attempts to convince them otherwise.Does that mean that the evidence used to convince them is flawed?
People believe what they want despite all evidence to the contrary. It is called being self deluded. It is rather common.
I believe that what was written in scripture is free of any important errors as the writers were carried along by the Holy Spirit. I am not so sure of either the translators or scribes involved.
Do you believe in God? I ask that because my belief about the writers being carried along by the Holy Spirit is based in my belief in God.
I am a student and the writers are teachers. Do not assume the teacher is uneducated because the student is still learning.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 06 2010,18:29) WJ
i took this phrase from your quote;To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!that is good;doyou believe that
TYep…
In the beginning was the Word, and “the Word was with God“, and “the Word was God“. John 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of “the Word of life“; 1 John 1:1
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and “his name is called The Word of God“. Rev 19:13
Do you believe that?
Blessings WJ
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 06 2010,20:58) All trinitarians believe Jesus Preexisted, like you do, But Jesus never said He preexisted His Berth as a live being or that he ever created anything .
GeneSo you say, but why do you refute the text and the proofs in my post showing that the text cannot be translated any other way based on the Greek Grammer?
Blessings WJ
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2010,08:01) Does that mean that the evidence used to convince them is flawed? People believe what they want despite all evidence to the contrary. It is called being self deluded. It is rather common.
KerwinThis is a true statement, then why do you reject the grammatical truths in my post concerning Jesus preexistence litterally?
Blessings WJ
gene
JN 14:3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
JN 14:4 “And you know the way where I am goingJN 8:23 And He was saying to them, “ You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2010,05:00) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2010,08:01) Does that mean that the evidence used to convince them is flawed? People believe what they want despite all evidence to the contrary. It is called being self deluded. It is rather common.
KerwinThis is a true statement, then why do you reject the grammatical truths in my post concerning Jesus preexistence litterally?
Blessings WJ
Good question I hope brother Kerwin will realise that the same applies to him also.Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 09 2010,16:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2010,05:00) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2010,08:01) Does that mean that the evidence used to convince them is flawed? People believe what they want despite all evidence to the contrary. It is called being self deluded. It is rather common.
KerwinThis is a true statement, then why do you reject the grammatical truths in my post concerning Jesus preexistence litterally?
Blessings WJ
Good question I hope brother Kerwin will realise that the same applies to him also.
Adam Your ignorance is obvious, to say the least…
IreneQuote (gollamudi @ Feb. 09 2010,11:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2010,05:00) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2010,08:01) Does that mean that the evidence used to convince them is flawed? People believe what they want despite all evidence to the contrary. It is called being self deluded. It is rather common.
KerwinThis is a true statement, then why do you reject the grammatical truths in my post concerning Jesus preexistence literally?
Blessings WJ
Good question I hope brother Kerwin will realise that the same applies to him also.
I am well aware that I believe what I want to believe. I just check to make sure I want to believe what God wants.That is why the promise that Jesus made in Matthew 5:6 is so important to me and not arguments about words or issues about final judgment.
Matthew 5:6(NIV) reads:
Quote Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.and
Ephesians 4:24(NIV) reads:
Quote and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
That is what the Prophets taught as well:
Deuteronomy 12:28(NIV) reads:
Quote Be careful to obey all these regulations I am giving you, so that it may always go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is good and right in the eyes of the LORD your God.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 09 2010,05:19) gene JN 14:3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
JN 14:4 “And you know the way where I am goingJN 8:23 And He was saying to them, “ You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world
John 8:22 The Jews, therefore, said, `Will he kill himself, because he saith, Whither I go away, ye are not able to come?' 23 and he said to them, `Ye are from beneath, I am from above; ye are of this world, I am not of this world;What does the above mean?
John 3:1 And there was a man of the Pharisees, Nicodemus his name, a ruler of the Jews, 2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come — a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.' 3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
1 Corinthians 2:4 and my word and my preaching was not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power — 5 that your faith may not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age — of those becoming useless, 7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory, 8 which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified; 9 but, according as it hath been written, `What eye did not see, and ear did not hear, and upon the heart of man came not up, what God did prepare for those loving Him –' 10 but to us did God reveal them through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God, 11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God. 12 And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that is of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us, 13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing, 14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them, because spiritually they are discerned; 15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned; 16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we — we have the mind of Christ.
John 17:16 `Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not; 17 sanctify them in Thy truth, Thy word is truth; 18 as Thou didst send me to the world, I also did send them to the world; 19 and for them do I sanctify myself, that they also themselves may be sanctified in truth. 20 `And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in me; 21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me. 22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one; 23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 09 2010,12:34) John 8:22 The Jews, therefore, said, `Will he kill himself, because he saith, Whither I go away, ye are not able to come?' 23 and he said to them, `Ye are from beneath, I am from above; ye are of this world, I am not of this world; What does the above mean?
John 3:1 And there was a man of the Pharisees, Nicodemus his name, a ruler of the Jews, 2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come — a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.' 3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
Hi Jodi…and he said to them, **YE ARE FROM BENEATH**, I AM FROM ABOVE; ye are of this world, I am not of this world; John 8:23
Note: If Jesus is exactly like them in everyway then it would mean he is not telling the truth.
It is pure inference to say that Jesus statement here is meaning that he was born again from above seeing that from his childhood he knew no sin! There is no scripture anywhere that even suggest Jesus was born again.
if then ye may behold the Son of Man going up where he was before? John 6:62 YLT
The Greek structure of the above verse does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation of the verse.
Jesus comment to Nicodemus statement about entering back into his mothers womb is proof that your analogy of John 8:23 is wrong, for if he was born again and was going back to where he was before according to John 6:62, then that would mean he is going back to what he was before being born again.
Pure foolishness!
Blessings WJ
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Matthew 3:15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Jesus was BORN of the natural he had to fight off the carnal mind. He was tempted in all points as we are, yet he was without sin because the Spirit of God was in him. The heavenly man is the MAN raised from the dead with flesh and bones. The heavenly man is NOT the One True God, but the eternal king of David's seed.
The men who Jesus was talking to in John 8 were men who followed their carnal mind and thus were of the world. Jesus was not of the world because he did not follow his carnal mind.
WJ did you read the following scriptures?
1 Corinthians 2:4 and my word and my preaching was not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power — 5 that your faith may not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age — of those becoming useless, 7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory, 8 which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified; 9 but, according as it hath been written, `What eye did not see, and ear did not hear, and upon the heart of man came not up, what God did prepare for those loving Him –' 10 but to us did God reveal them through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God, 11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God. 12 And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that is of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us, 13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing, 14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them, because spiritually they are discerned; 15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned; 16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we — we have the mind of Christ.
To have the MIND of CHRIST is to have the MIND of an anointed MAN who has received the Spirit of the Father!!
John 17:16 `Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not; 17 sanctify them in Thy truth, Thy word is truth; 18 as Thou didst send me to the world, I also did send them to the world; 19 and for them do I sanctify myself, that they also themselves may be sanctified in truth. 20 `And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in me; 21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me. 22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
The WORD of God which is Spirit and is Life was in the promise of a coming Christ. Once again there exists NO scripture that states that God SENT a spirit son. God SENT from heaven the PROMISE of a MAN that would bring salvation. A man who's flesh would NOT see corruption but be MADE incorruptible FLESH.
John 6:57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
Jesus is speaking of himself as a MAN not as an immortal spirit son. Jesus was saying the Father sent ME, the MAN that was promised before time began.
58This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?” 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
“Where the SON of MAN was BEFORE”, not where the immortal spirit son was before, but where the “SON of MAN” was before. Did the Son of Man literally exist before?…. we know that he did in fact LIVE in the WORDS of the Father in the FORM of a PROMISE.
What saved mankind was in fact a MAN. Jesus referred to himself as the bread that came down from heaven and it was that bread that gives eternal life. Jesus gives us eternal life through being the righteous man who died on the cross. That which came down from heaven was the Son of David, that which returned to heaven was the Son of David. The promise of the seed of David came down and the promise of the seed of David went back up. For the Father said that He would send a man born of the seed of David into the world, and that seed would rise up and sit at His right hand!!!
Nowhere is Jesus or his followers trying to assert that Jesus is god the son or Jesus is the immortal spirit son. They are always trying to defend that Jesus was in fact THE CHRIST, who before time began had been promised by the words of the Father to come.
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