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And Yashuw'ah, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove, and lighting [erchomai] upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:16-17
This Spirit: [The Pneuma: Greek NT: Breath, Wind.] Was Yahuweh's voice!
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,16:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,13:23) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,16:12) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,12:01) WorshippingJesus said; Quote And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16 And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
thinker
Matthew 3:16 And Yashuw'ah, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove, and lighting [erchomai] upon him:The Pneuma: Greek NT: Breath, Wind. From Hebrew OT: Ruach: Air, Blast, Breath, Whirlwind, Wind, Windy.
Katabainó: Greek NT: Go down.
And Erchomai: Greek NT: Accompany, Become Known,To Appear, Show Itself.
Matthew 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel [angelos {From aggelos}] of the Lord descended [katabas {From katabainó}] from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
The Angelos: Greek NT: Angelos: From Aggelos: Angel, Messenger.
Katabas: Greek NT: From Katabainó: Go down.
The complete definition is…Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
So your point is…???
WJ
Is “Air,” “Blast,” “Breath,” “Whirlwind,” or “Wind” a person?
ConThe Holy Spirit that descended on Jesus in the form of a dove is and was a person.
But that is the problem with the Arians, they think the Spirit is merely a breath or wind like the JWs.
But the scriptures deny this for God is Spirit.
“NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 2 Cor 3:17
God can take on any form that he wishes he can be like the wind or the rain or fire or a dove or a human!
But back to the subject, either way the Spirit descended (katabainō) from heaven “Literrally” and so did Jesus!
You should give up the Unitarian faith for it is full of holes!
WJ
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:03) And Yashuw'ah, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove, and lighting [erchomai] upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:16-17 This Spirit: [The Pneuma: Greek NT: Breath, Wind.] Was Yahuweh's voice!
NoJust another Arian twist. The Spirit sat on Jesus and the voice came from heaven!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,17:07) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:03) And Yashuw'ah, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove, and lighting [erchomai] upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:16-17 This Spirit: [The Pneuma: Greek NT: Breath, Wind.] Was Yahuweh's voice!
NoJust another Arian twist. The Spirit sat on Jesus and the voice came from heaven!
WJ
BTWThe Trinity is found here also!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 08 2010,09:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,17:07) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:03) And Yashuw'ah, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove, and lighting [erchomai] upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:16-17 This Spirit: [The Pneuma: Greek NT: Breath, Wind.] Was Yahuweh's voice!
NoJust another Arian twist. The Spirit sat on Jesus and the voice came from heaven!
WJ
BTWThe Trinity is found here also!
WJ
WJ,
Good point bro! I never thought of that. The Spirit that sat upon Jesus was distinguished from the voice which came out of heaven which was the Father's voice. So the Spirit that sat upon Jesus could not have been the Father's “breath” (voice) as Con says.The triune God is CLEARLY taught in scripture!
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,14:06) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,16:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,13:23) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,16:12) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,12:01) WorshippingJesus said; Quote And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16 And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
thinker
Matthew 3:16 And Yashuw'ah, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove, and lighting [erchomai] upon him:The Pneuma: Greek NT: Breath, Wind. From Hebrew OT: Ruach: Air, Blast, Breath, Whirlwind, Wind, Windy.
Katabainó: Greek NT: Go down.
And Erchomai: Greek NT: Accompany, Become Known,To Appear, Show Itself.
Matthew 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel [angelos {From aggelos}] of the Lord descended [katabas {From katabainó}] from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
The Angelos: Greek NT: Angelos: From Aggelos: Angel, Messenger.
Katabas: Greek NT: From Katabainó: Go down.
The complete definition is…Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
So your point is…???
WJ
Is “Air,” “Blast,” “Breath,” “Whirlwind,” or “Wind” a person?
ConThe Holy Spirit that descended on Jesus in the form of a dove is and was a person.
But that is the problem with the Arians, they think the Spirit is merely a breath or wind like the JWs.
But the scriptures deny this for God is Spirit.
“NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 2 Cor 3:17
God can take on any form that he wishes he can be like the wind or the rain or a dove or a human!
But back to the subject, either way the Spirit descended (katabainō) from heaven “Literrally” and so did Jesus!
You should give up the Unitarian faith for it is full of holes!
WJ
Quote The Holy Spirit that descended on Jesus in the form of a dove is and was a person. Does not say it was the form of a dove, it states it descended “like” a dove (how does a dove descended?).
A dove is not a person.
Quote But that is the problem with the Arians, they think the Spirit is merely a breath or wind like the JWs. Ruach: http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app9.html
Pnuema: http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app101.htmlPneumatic: Air Driven
Quote But the scriptures deny this for God is Spirit. Yahuweh is a spirit.
Quote God can take on any form that he wishes he can be like the wind or the rain or a dove or a human! That is why he is Yahuweh.
Quote But back to the subject, either way the Spirit descended (katabainō) from heaven “Literrally” and so did Jesus! And?
Quote You should give up the Unitarian faith for it is full of holes! I am sorry, I am NOT Unitarian. In fact your friend “TheThinker IS “Unitarian”. I am Arian, I do not believe all will be saved.
And I agree the “Unitarian” beliefs are full of holes.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,14:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 08 2010,09:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,17:07) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:03) And Yashuw'ah, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove, and lighting [erchomai] upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:16-17 This Spirit: [The Pneuma: Greek NT: Breath, Wind.] Was Yahuweh's voice!
NoJust another Arian twist. The Spirit sat on Jesus and the voice came from heaven!
WJ
BTWThe Trinity is found here also!
WJ
WJ,
Good point bro! I never thought of that. The Spirit that sat upon Jesus was distinguished from the voice which came out of heaven which was the Father's voice. So the Spirit that sat upon Jesus could not have been the Father's “breath” (voice) as Con says.The triune God is CLEARLY taught in scripture!
thinker
The Greeks used the word “Pneuma” for “Spirit,” not me! Your argument is with the Greek Transliteration.Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 08 2010,08:18) hi TT Group: Regular Members
Posts: 4463
Joined: Jan. 2009 Posted: Jan. 08 2010,06:59——————————————————————————–
terraricca said:Quote
show me that from the beginning in the bible God is not alone but is a trinity???“And God said, “Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness.
How's that for starters?
thinker
TT.to whom was he talking to
or who where the ones talking?for a starter.:
t,God was not speaking with angels. It says “OUR image.” Man was not created in the image of angels.
Here is another verse for you:
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6 And the LORD said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city.
The Lord said, “Let US go down and confuse their language.” Then it says, “So the LORD scattered them….”
So the “US” did not include angels.
thinker
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,14:06) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,16:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,13:23) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,16:12) thethinker,Jan. wrote:WorshippingJesus said;
Quote And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16 And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Were the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
thinker
Matthew 3:16 And Yashuw'ah, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove, and lighting [erchomai] upon him:The Pneuma: Greek NT: Breath, Wind. From Hebrew OT: Ruach: Air, Blast, Breath, Whirlwind, Wind, Windy.
Katabainó: Greek NT: Go down.
And Erchomai: Greek NT: Accompany, Become Known,To Appear, Show Itself.
Matthew 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel [angelos {From aggelos}] of the Lord descended [katabas {From katabainó}] from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
The Angelos: Greek NT: Angelos: From Aggelos: Angel, Messenger.
Katabas: Greek NT: From Katabainó: Go down.
The complete definition is…Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
So your point is…???
WJ
Is “Air,” “Blast,” “Breath,” “Whirlwind,” or “Wind” a person?
ConThe Holy Spirit that descended on Jesus in the form of a dove is and was a person.
But that is the problem with the Arians, they think the Spirit is merely a breath or wind like the JWs.
But the scriptures deny this for God is Spirit.
“NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 2 Cor 3:17
God can take on any form that he wishes he can be like the wind or the rain or a dove or a human!
But back to the subject, either way the Spirit descended (katabainō) from heaven “Literally” and so did Jesus!
You should give up the Unitarian faith for it is full of holes!
WJ
I said…Quote The Holy Spirit that descended on Jesus in the form of a dove is and was a person. Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:21)
Does not say it was the form of a dove, it states it descended “like” a dove (how does a dove descended?).
So what are you saying, the Holy Spirit is a literal Dove? If he was not in the form of a dove then how did the witnesses know he was “Like a dove”?Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:21)
A dove is not a person.
Which totally invalidates your previous point that the “dove” was the voice of the Lord!But neither is wind, or rain, or fire persons, yet we know that God can take on these forms if he chooses…
FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE. Heb 12:29
I said..
Quote But that is the problem with the Arians, they think the Spirit is merely a breath or wind like the JWs. Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:21)
Ruach: http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app9.html
Pnuema: http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app101.htmlPneumatic: Air Driven
What does that prove? God can take on the form of breath or wind!“NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 2 Cor 3:17
What part of this scripture is not clear?
BTW your first source writes…
II. – THE HOLY SPIRIT : the Third Person of the Trinity.
2 Samuel 23:2. 1Kings 18:12; 22:24. 2Kings 2:16. 2Chronicles 18:23. Nehemiah 9:20,30. Job 26:13; 33:4. Isaiah 40:13; 48:16; 59:19,21; 61:1; 63:10,1-4. Ezekiel 3:12,14 (1 st); 8:3; 11:1,24; 37:1; 43:5. Micah 2:7; 3:8. Zechariah 4:6; 6:8; 7:12. Malachi 2:15.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:21)
Yahuweh is a spirit.
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. John 4:24Do you see the little brackets? In the Greek
there is no indefinite article. But what is the difference? God is Spirit or God is a Spirit, or “THE LORD IS that SPIRIT”? 2 Cor 3:17Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:21)
That is why he is Yahuweh.
Then why do you doubt he can come in human form?Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:21)
And?
It is proof that Jesus literally came down from heaven!Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:21)
I am sorry, I am NOT Unitarian. In fact your friend “TheThinker IS “Unitarian”.
Maybe you don’t think so but if you do not believe in the preexistence of Jesus and his Deity then you have a Unitarian faith!The funniest thing you could ever say is Jack is a “Unitarian”!
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:21)
And I agree the “Unitarian” beliefs are full of holes.
So then why do you believe like they do?WJ
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:25) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,14:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 08 2010,09:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,17:07) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,17:03) And Yashuw'ah, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove, and lighting [erchomai] upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:16-17 This Spirit: [The Pneuma: Greek NT: Breath, Wind.] Was Yahuweh's voice!
NoJust another Arian twist. The Spirit sat on Jesus and the voice came from heaven!
WJ
BTWThe Trinity is found here also!
WJ
WJ,
Good point bro! I never thought of that. The Spirit that sat upon Jesus was distinguished from the voice which came out of heaven which was the Father's voice. So the Spirit that sat upon Jesus could not have been the Father's “breath” (voice) as Con says.The triune God is CLEARLY taught in scripture!
thinker
The Greeks used the word “Pneuma” for “Spirit,” not me! Your argument is with the Greek Transliteration.
Yes they did, and the definition of Pneuma is…Strong's G4151…1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the “Holy” Spirit)
b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of “Truth”)
c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a) a life giving spirit
b) a human soul that has left the body
c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
b) breath of nostrils or mouth
The word “Pneuma” can be any of those things, but when the scriptures use the term “Holy Spirit” it is always refering to the third person of the Trinity which is very God!
WJ
Quote So what are you saying, the Holy Spirit is a literal Dove? If he was not in the form of a dove then how did the witnesses know he was “Like a dove”? Again, it does NOT say it took on the “FORM” of a “DOVE”.
It states “he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove”.
This air, breath, wind [pneuma], descended AS A “dove” would descend, does not say it is a dove.
Your teaching something that is not there.
Quote Which totally invalidates your previous point that the “dove” was the voice of the Lord! But neither is wind, or rain, or fire persons, yet we know that God can take on these forms if he chooses…
FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE. Heb 12:29
Does not state Yahuweh himself came down.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,18:03) Constitutionalist said: Quote In fact your friend “TheThinker IS “Unitarian”. 
thinker
Unitarians believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ as found in the New Testament and other Early Christian writings. Adhering to strict monotheism, they maintain that Jesus was a great man and a prophet of God, perhaps even a supernatural being, but not God himself. They believe Jesus did not claim to be God, nor did his teachings hint at the existence of a triune God. Unitarians believe in the moral authority, but not necessarily the divinity, of Jesus. Their theology is thus distinguishable from the trinitarian theology of most Christian denominations, which hold the idea of a triune God as a core belief. SourceI am laughing to
WJ
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,18:09) Quote So what are you saying, the Holy Spirit is a literal Dove? If he was not in the form of a dove then how did the witnesses know he was “Like a dove”? Again, it does NOT say it took on the “FORM” of a “DOVE”.
It states “he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove”.
This air, breath, wind [pneuma], descended AS A “dove” would descend, does not say it is a dove.
Your teaching something that is not there.
ConMincing words!
Ok like a dove but is not a “Dove” right?
But still literrally coming down from heaven!
WJ
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 08 2010,10:09) Quote So what are you saying, the Holy Spirit is a literal Dove? If he was not in the form of a dove then how did the witnesses know he was “Like a dove”? Again, it does NOT say it took on the “FORM” of a “DOVE”.
It states “he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove”.
This air, breath, wind [pneuma], descended AS A “dove” would descend, does not say it is a dove.
Your teaching something that is not there.
LUKE 3:22” And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
WJ,
I think Con reads a different Bible than the rest of us.
thinker
Quote BTW your first source writes… II. – THE HOLY SPIRIT : the Third Person of the Trinity.
2 Samuel 23:2. 1Kings 18:12; 22:24. 2Kings 2:16. 2Chronicles 18:23. Nehemiah 9:20,30. Job 26:13; 33:4. Isaiah 40:13; 48:16; 59:19,21; 61:1; 63:10,1-4. Ezekiel 3:12,14 (1 st); 8:3; 11:1,24; 37:1; 43:5. Micah 2:7; 3:8. Zechariah 4:6; 6:8; 7:12. Malachi 2:15.Meaning what? I have to agree with everything they state? I agree with many things you state, but does that mean I have to agree with everything you state? Or how about Strongs? Do I have to agree with everything with Strongs?
If anyone one source was perfect then we wouldnt be here discussing would we?
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,18:11) Quote Which totally invalidates your previous point that the “dove” was the voice of the Lord! But neither is wind, or rain, or fire persons, yet we know that God can take on these forms if he chooses…
FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE. Heb 12:29
Does not state Yahuweh himself came down.
ConYour assumption is that the term God is exclusive to the Father!
False!
WJ
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,18:15) Quote BTW your first source writes… II. – THE HOLY SPIRIT : the Third Person of the Trinity.
2 Samuel 23:2. 1Kings 18:12; 22:24. 2Kings 2:16. 2Chronicles 18:23. Nehemiah 9:20,30. Job 26:13; 33:4. Isaiah 40:13; 48:16; 59:19,21; 61:1; 63:10,1-4. Ezekiel 3:12,14 (1 st); 8:3; 11:1,24; 37:1; 43:5. Micah 2:7; 3:8. Zechariah 4:6; 6:8; 7:12. Malachi 2:15.Meaning what? I have to agree with everything they state? I agree with many things you state, but does that mean I have to agree with everything you state? Or how about Strongs? Do I have to agree with everything with Strongs?
If anyone one source was perfect then we wouldnt be here discussing would we?
ConYou don't have to believe anything. Just pointing it out thats all.
You can continue to to believe whatever you want!
But Scripturally Jesus literally came down from heaven!
Just like in the past you have not refuted the Greek text and the word moods, tenses etc proving that Jesus literally came down from heaven and returned from whence he came and you still will not address those points!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,15:16) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,18:11) Quote Which totally invalidates your previous point that the “dove” was the voice of the Lord! But neither is wind, or rain, or fire persons, yet we know that God can take on these forms if he chooses…
FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE. Heb 12:29
Does not state Yahuweh himself came down.
ConYou assumption is that the term God is exclusive to the Father!
False!
WJ
It is.
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